PAC's PED talk in 2008-2011 should be laid to rest for good

No it shouldn't be laid to rest. he most likely was juiced to the tits for his spectacular run. Great fighter but let's be honest And it's been revealed he's been shooting Torodol for however long probably since at least Dela Hoya You can't just ignore these facts What facts? How did you get him using toradol every fight since Hoya?

i look at mayweather and pacquaio as cheaters, pacquio turned down test, mayweather breoke rule THAN got a retroactive permission 20 days after the fight. both cheaters just one have a better PR team. The insistence on trying to find a false equivalency is laughable

His punches still land hard, he still gets knockdowns, but he's throwing fewer punches in every successive fight with the exception of the Rios fight (but Rios is a pretty still target). To me it looks to be a very predictable and understandable decline with age. Explosive, offense heavy fighters like Pacquiao aren't usually still considered A-level at 37. I also think the Marquez 4 stoppage played a huge impact. He said to Stephen A Smith something along the lines of him not wanting to get 'careless' when pursuing Vargas, which is the same word he used to describe as the reason to why Marquez stopped him. You can reasonably figure that he's still thinking about being knocked out that badly in each and every fight since then and it affects the decisions he makes in the ring. I'm not sold on Ricky being a good example of his decline in punching power. People point to that KO as evidence that Pacquiao had some other worldly power at that point but I disagree. For one, I think Hatton's chin was not especially strong. Plus Hatton took many full, clean hooks and no Pacquiao opponents since then were as available for those kinda shots (except Rios, who has a sturdy chin. His KO loss to Bradley was caused by body shots and Pac threw practically 0 of those on Rios). Also, was he only on roids for Hatton? He landed plenty of punches on his other opponents during his career's height and didn't put any of them cleanly away (ODLH corner stoppage, Cotto ref stoppage, Margarito went 12, Clottey went 12, Mosley went 12, Bradley went 12). The Hatton KO is an anomaly in the bigger picture. Practically all his other knockouts were caused by an accumulation of punishment + well put together combos. Harder to get those kinds of knockouts if you are throwing fewer punches overall and aren't throwing combinations (look at the punch stats for his last few fights + how many combos did you notice him throw at Vargas?). Pacquiao bludgeoned the 34-1 Miguel Cotto, which is the singular fight that immediately left most of the boxing world with a "WTF"-type feeling, before immediately no longer being that guy (which the timing seemed to line almost exactly with the request for both fighters to be blood tested). Didn't pay for Pacquiao-Vargas, and literally have no interest in bothering to even see the fight, tbh. Last Pacquiao fight I saw was vs Mayweather, and Pacquiao let the world know who/what he was then.

Anyone who claims they have proof one way or the other should be banned. In this day and age, NOONE is beyond steroid allegations. To say this proves pac is not on steroids is laughable.....if anything, it leans towards those who claim pac is dirty. There is no way so many b level fighters all go 12 rounds with Pac in pac's prime. But while suspicious, it doesn't prove he's dirty either. It could be age or the marquez effect kicking in.

He knocked Algieri down 6 times. He's the first to knock down Vargas and Vargas has never been knocked out in his career. Rios is known to be a tough guy and at the time almost impossible to knock out. Rios got knocked out by Bradly but from most accounts he had weight issues coming into that fight and wasn't looking good. ..Algieri was on his bike against Pac... and with his new trainer, chose to fight Spence toe to toe and he paid the price for it. ..... Geez ...the haters are for real. Pac is still scoring knock downs. It's just these guys don't stay down. Since 2011...he scored knockdowns against Mosley, JMM, Algieri, Bradley, Vargas.......I don't know who else.... Clottey was a turtle, and Margarito paid the price with a damaged eye for life. Let's be real here. Errol Spence put his hands on Chris Algieri, and Algieri got put out in 5 rounds; Pacquiao put hands on Algieri, and Algieri made it through 12. keep ignoring reality if you want. Manny Pacquiao appeared on the scene, and was savaging folks up the weight classes, all the way until (timing being interesting) someone with clout spoke up.

After Miguel Cotto, he fought a turtle shell defense clottey who was on the high guard ALL NIGHT. And then a Durable Margarito and a Durable Mosley with Margo breaking his eye socket and mosley wanting to quit. All fighters manny fought other than Marquez were bigger than him by 10+ pounds or more. The only time that Miguel Cotto was ever stopped in a fight, Margarito had to assault him (allegedly) with plaster-loaded gloves; also note that, immediately after the fight, Cotto went up to 154lbs. To try and act as if Miguel Cotto isn't as durable a fighter as anyone else that Pacquiao has fought, or that Cotto didn't significantly outweight Pacquiao, is ridiculous. nice try though

he's not ko-ing people like he was when he was on epo, he's not throwing 8 punch flurries round after round like he used to

No it shouldn't be laid to rest. he most likely was juiced to the tits for his spectacular run. Great fighter but let's be honest And it's been revealed he's been shooting Torodol for however long probably since at least Dela Hoya You can't just ignore these facts

His punches still land hard, he still gets knockdowns, but he's throwing fewer punches in every successive fight with the exception of the Rios fight (but Rios is a pretty still target). To me it looks to be a very predictable and understandable decline with age. Explosive, offense heavy fighters like Pacquiao aren't usually still considered A-level at 37. I also think the Marquez 4 stoppage played a huge impact. He said to Stephen A Smith something along the lines of him not wanting to get 'careless' when pursuing Vargas, which is the same word he used to describe as the reason to why Marquez stopped him. You can reasonably figure that he's still thinking about being knocked out that badly in each and every fight since then and it affects the decisions he makes in the ring. I'm not sold on Ricky being a good example of his decline in punching power. People point to that KO as evidence that Pacquiao had some other worldly power at that point but I disagree. For one, I think Hatton's chin was not especially strong. Plus Hatton took many full, clean hooks and no Pacquiao opponents since then were as available for those kinda shots (except Rios, who has a sturdy chin. His KO loss to Bradley was caused by body shots and Pac threw practically 0 of those on Rios). The Hatton KO is an anomaly in the bigger picture. Practically all his other knockouts were caused by an accumulation of punishment + well put together combos. Harder to get those kinds of knockouts if you are throwing fewer punches overall and aren't throwing combinations (look at the punch stats for his last few fights + how many combos did you notice him throw at Vargas?). He's getting knockdowns against a much lower level of opposition! And they aren't even staying down. Rios, Algieri, and Vargas are a few levels below guys like Cotto and Hatton in their primes. Pac hopped off the juice and onto the Toradol.

Yep these 'experts' think Manny was knocking people out left and right ...but really he never really knocked people out cold at welterweight besides Hatton. He'd just punish guys to the point where the ref had to step in. These haters just need to realize as Pac aged, his workrate gradually went down. And after KTFO6, he became a different fighter. He became a little less reckless, more careful, and focused a bit more on defence. A nice summarized version of my above post lol

There's a difference between one-punching Ricky Hatton and then getting dragged through 12 rounds by Chris Algieri, Brandon Rios, and now Jessie Vargas. Manny Pacquiao, almost literally, went from being an utter wrecking machine to not being able to stop/badly hurt anyone after 4 months. Fighters are going to decline, whether it be in years or because of weight; just look at Floyd Mayweather Jr, who went from being a dynamic two-handed, power punching. boxer-puncher at 130lbs to being a good punching, tactical boxer-puncher at 140lbs, to ending things as a meticulous, defensive boxer-puncher at 147/154lbs. Over the course of ten years, Floyd became the fighter he ended up as. Point to a single other fighter who basically fell off of their peak within a year. His punches still land hard, he still gets knockdowns, but he's throwing fewer punches in every successive fight with the exception of the Rios fight (but Rios is a pretty still target). To me it looks to be a very predictable and understandable decline with age. Explosive, offense heavy fighters like Pacquiao aren't usually still considered A-level at 37. I also think the Marquez 4 stoppage played a huge impact. He said to Stephen A Smith something along the lines of him not wanting to get 'careless' when pursuing Vargas, which is the same word he used to describe as the reason to why Marquez stopped him. You can reasonably figure that he's still thinking about being knocked out that badly in each and every fight since then and it affects the decisions he makes in the ring. I'm not sold on Ricky being a good example of his decline in punching power. People point to that KO as evidence that Pacquiao had some other worldly power at that point but I disagree. For one, I think Hatton's chin was not especially strong. Plus Hatton took many full, clean hooks and no Pacquiao opponents since then were as available for those kinda shots (except Rios, who has a sturdy chin. His KO loss to Bradley was caused by body shots and Pac threw practically 0 of those on Rios). Also, was he only on roids for Hatton? He landed plenty of punches on his other opponents during his career's height and didn't put any of them cleanly away (ODLH corner stoppage, Cotto ref stoppage, Margarito went 12, Clottey went 12, Mosley went 12, Bradley went 12). The Hatton KO is an anomaly in the bigger picture. Practically all his other knockouts were caused by an accumulation of punishment + well put together combos. Harder to get those kinds of knockouts if you are throwing fewer punches overall and aren't throwing combinations (look at the punch stats for his last few fights + how many combos did you notice him throw at Vargas?).

There's a difference between one-punching Ricky Hatton and then getting dragged through 12 rounds by Chris Algieri, Brandon Rios, and now Jessie Vargas. Manny Pacquiao, almost literally, went from being an utter wrecking machine to not being able to stop/badly hurt anyone after 4 months. He knocked Algieri down 6 times. He's the first to knock down Vargas and Vargas has never been knocked out in his career. Rios is known to be a tough guy and at the time almost impossible to knock out. Rios got knocked out by Bradly but from most accounts he had weight issues coming into that fight and wasn't looking good. ..Algieri was on his bike against Pac... and with his new trainer, chose to fight Spence toe to toe and he paid the price for it. ..... Geez ...the haters are for real. Pac is still scoring knock downs. It's just these guys don't stay down. Since 2011...he scored knockdowns against Mosley, JMM, Algieri, Bradley, Vargas.......I don't know who else.... Clottey was a turtle, and Margarito paid the price with a damaged eye for life. Let's be real here.

As gracefully as he's aged, boxing-wise, I don't think he was using heavily back in the day. He'd likely be shot if he was through that whole period. I don't put PEDs past anyone, be it Floyd, Manny, etc. But, he clearly wasn't good just because of being 'on' something.

This version of PAC is still beating on younger guys in their prime. Facing and beating young hungry lions 7+ years younger than him. In this case beating Vargas 10 years younger while PAC is a month or so shy of turning 38. In fact Pacquiao is not even a full time boxer and is working 9am to 7pm daily as a senator and is still beating guys. Give credit to where it's due. At the time, PAC was prime. Now PAC has aged a bit but still has enough to beat the competition. The man is clearly not a 147 lber but still scores knockdowns (but not knockouts). He's just that good and is a special fighter. There's a difference between one-punching Ricky Hatton and then getting dragged through 12 rounds by Chris Algieri, Brandon Rios, and now Jessie Vargas. Manny Pacquiao, almost literally, went from being an utter wrecking machine to not being able to stop/badly hurt anyone after 4 months. Fighters are going to decline, whether it be in years or because of weight; just look at Floyd Mayweather Jr, who went from being a dynamic two-handed, power punching. boxer-puncher at 130lbs to being a good punching, tactical boxer-puncher at 140lbs, to ending things as a meticulous, defensive boxer-puncher at 147/154lbs. Over the course of ten years, Floyd became the fighter he ended up as. Point to a single other fighter who basically fell off of their peak within a year.

Yep these 'experts' think Manny was knocking people out left and right ...but really he never really knocked people out cold at welterweight besides Hatton. He'd just punish guys to the point where the ref had to step in. These haters just need to realize as Pac aged, his workrate gradually went down. And after KTFO6, he became a different fighter. He became a little less reckless, more careful, and focused a bit more on defence.

It's Vargas. Relax. We all know Pac is special...beating Vargas isnt why