Do you think James Toney was skilled and talented?

He was really talented and skilled. However, those attributes are mitigated by a lack of dedication and discipline. Which explain why he caught odd loses and never really made the most of his talent and skills.

His best performances are probably Barkley, Jirov, Holyfield, Ruiz off the top of my head. He also fought well against McCallum both times even though I had him losing. There is no shame in losing to a Mike McCallum. Barkely and Jirov are sub par, Holyfield was shot and Ruiz was an NC. He fought well the first McCallum fight, second one I thought was a wider loss.

The only time Toney ever looked "phenomenal" was against sub par opponents. Although he often looked like sh*t even against them. His best performances are probably Barkley, Jirov, Holyfield, Ruiz off the top of my head. He also fought well against McCallum both times even though I had him losing. There is no shame in losing to a Mike McCallum.

toney fought the kind of fighters that floyd mayweather avoided. i think everybody would see floyd mayweather as much more human if he'd fought the prime roy jones' of the world, the way james toney did. i genuinely don't think floyd mayweather would even fight prime roy jones. :lol1: This dude at it again. He says that Toney fought the kinds of fighters Mayweather avoided and the only name that he can think of is "Prime Roy Jones." Toney lost several times and/or had close/controversial decisions to the caliber of fighter that you would criticize Mayweather for fighting.

If he had the discipline of a Floyd or Hopkins, he'd probably be known as one of the greatest fighters ever. He'd always lose to Roy, but if he bothered to be in shape, it would definitely be a closer fight. His only problem (besides BK as others have mentioned) is that he was so talented, he came into fights unprepared. That being said, he was willing to fight "anyone, anytime" and his positives outweigh (no pun intended) the negatives. If he hadn't torn his achilles, his heavyweight career might've been much different. Just watching him fight Jameel McCline's 6'6" goofy ass in 2004 would've been some fascinating sh1t. On what basis would Toney-Roy by a lot closer if he was "in shape?" Which fights was he in shape for and how have you come to this conclusion? Roy embarrasses Toney 100 times out of 100. Completely different levels of fighters.

toney fought the kind of fighters that floyd mayweather avoided. i think everybody would see floyd mayweather as much more human if he'd fought the prime roy jones' of the world, the way james toney did. Prime Toney got his ass kicked by the Robert Guerreros of the world. Worse, actually. I'm not even bringing up Roy Jones.

If he had the discipline of a Floyd or Hopkins, he'd probably be known as one of the greatest fighters ever. He'd always lose to Roy, but if he bothered to be in shape, it would definitely be a closer fight. His only problem (besides BK as others have mentioned) is that he was so talented, he came into fights unprepared. That being said, he was willing to fight "anyone, anytime" and his positives outweigh (no pun intended) the negatives. If he hadn't torn his achilles, his heavyweight career might've been much different. Just watching him fight Jameel McCline's 6'6" goofy ass in 2004 would've been some fascinating sh1t.

James Toney was a super talent. His toughest challenge were on the scales. He just couldn't find a way to stay in shape. He would often gained more than 30 lbs between fights. It was his overall lack of professionalism and self-discipline as an athlete, which all helped contributed, to the harming of his legacy.

Can't green K this post but this is the truth. Against fighters that played into his strengths he was phenomenal. And those are the fights that typically appear in his highlight reels which makes everybody ignore the rest of his career. The only time Toney ever looked "phenomenal" was against sub par opponents. Although he often looked like sh*t even against them.

Obviously skilled and talented but a lot overrate him a tad. Type of guy you can make look however you want to on highlight reels & I feel that is where a lot do rate him based off of. They see highlight reels & think he is the best fighter too ever live. He wasn't a complete fighter in fact I'd say he was fairly one dimensional unless you played too his strengths which a lot did, foolishly. "Fairly" is a term to be used loosely here I think. He IS one dimensional. I don't think that's even arguable if you have actually seen the guy fight.

there's just so much wrong in this post to address everything specifically, but i'll offer you a video of toney practicing virtually everything you've listed in some sparring footage from the kronk gym in 1990. paritcualarly, i'd love to see where you think his footwork is poor. that's just absurd. the man had a terrific ability to counterpunch and avoid punches, and you can't do that without a proper base. it's like you've taken a screenshot of james toney showing up out of shape, or when he was a plodding heavyweight, and saying that's all he had to offer. the man boxed for well over 25 years, and during periods of that career he was a historic level, top flight fighter. You are actually trying to say that James Toney had good footwork? :lol1: I suggest you watch his fights. He cannot fight off the back foot and he cannot cut off a ring. You want to know particularly? Reggie Johnson probably being the most stand out example outside of Roy Jones where his footwork looked novice-like. No ability to cut the ring off, constantly loading up and thus crossing his feet over. Same thing against Nunn. Against Griffin his feet were so stuck in the mud he allowed Griffin to jump in and out and outwork. I can't believe you're actually arguing he has good footwork to be honest. Even the most rabid of Toney admit his feet aren't good. He a terrific ability to counterpunch....when he's in the pocket and stationary. When given movment he is as good as useless. That has been shown time and time again. Toney rarely even attempted to fight off the back foot, but when he did it was hard to watch. It's funny because that's what I always hear "you haven't watched Toney" "you've only watched the HW far version" No, that's the issue, I've actually watched his entire career. Clearly many others have not.

Obviously skilled and talented but a lot overrate him a tad. Type of guy you can make look however you want to on highlight reels & I feel that is where a lot do rate him based off of. They see highlight reels & think he is the best fighter too ever live. He wasn't a complete fighter in fact I'd say he was fairly one dimensional unless you played too his strengths which a lot did, foolishly. Can't green K this post but this is the truth. Against fighters that played into his strengths he was phenomenal. And those are the fights that typically appear in his highlight reels which makes everybody ignore the rest of his career.

there's just so much wrong in this post to address everything specifically, but i'll offer you a video of toney practicing virtually everything you've listed in some sparring footage from the kronk gym in 1990. paritcualarly, i'd love to see where you think his footwork is poor. that's just absurd. the man had a terrific ability to counterpunch and avoid punches, and you can't do that without a proper base. it's like you've taken a screenshot of james toney showing up out of shape, or when he was a plodding heavyweight, and saying that's all he had to offer. the man boxed for well over 25 years, and during periods of that career he was a historic level, top flight fighter.

Obviously skilled and talented but a lot overrate him a tad. Type of guy you can make look however you want to on highlight reels & I feel that is where a lot do rate him based off of. They see highlight reels & think he is the best fighter too ever live. He wasn't a complete fighter in fact I'd say he was fairly one dimensional unless you played too his strengths which a lot did, foolishly.

Except that wasn't his only problem. The fact he has poor footwork was a problem. The fact he can't fight off the backfoot was a problem. The fact he can't cut off the ring was a problem. The fact he can't make adjustments was a problem. The fact he can't block a right hook to the body to save his life was a problem. The fact he can't avoid a jab was a problem. The fact he loads up on his punches was a problem often causing him to cross his feet over. Toney was a flawed fighter, to act like the only reason he fell short was his lack of discipline is a nothing more than a bad joke. there's just so much wrong in this post to address everything specifically, but i'll offer you a video of toney practicing virtually everything you've listed in some sparring footage from the kronk gym in 1990. paritcualarly, i'd love to see where you think his footwork is poor. that's just absurd. the man had a terrific ability to counterpunch and avoid punches, and you can't do that without a proper base. it's like you've taken a screenshot of james toney showing up out of shape, or when he was a plodding heavyweight, and saying that's all he had to offer. the man boxed for well over 25 years, and during periods of that career he was a historic level, top flight fighter.

Toney is the closest talent and style these days to Archie Moore! The shoulder roll was a big part of both fighters OFFENSE unlike Mayweather using it for defense and popping a straight counter right hand then running away. Toney is one of the last old school students and soon enough the pro boxing landscape will be like the amateurs. Everything on the outside and nothing allowed inside! Refs for years now break fighters and shout "box" as they do in the amateur programs. Fighters like Duran and Toney won't be seen because their trainers all around knowledge and teaching techniques are soon to be gone. The few fighters that incorporate boxing forms with fighting are Roman Gonzales and GGG this kid Spence can and Crawford. Koval is in there but his form is still very stiff and awkward not the most fluid guy to watch. Toney knows more about boxing than any current fighter and it's not close! Ray

i genuinely don't think floyd mayweather would even fight prime roy jones. Maybe he would maybe he wouldn't. Doesn't matter because it didn't take a prime Roy Jones to make Toney look human. Roy Jones didn't make him look human he made him look like he'd never stepped in a boxing ring in his life. Sosa and Williams made him look human. Two journeyman. Tiberi and Thadzi beat him with relative ease. Two more journeyman. Floyd ain't losing to no journeyman much less in his prime years.

I don't think Mayweather would lose to Tiberi and Thadzi level fighters or struggle and scrape victories over the likes of Merqui Sosa and Sanderline Williams. i genuinely don't think floyd mayweather would even fight prime roy jones.

This thread is ridiculous. You do realize James Toney started at 156 and then fought Samuel Peter who weighed in at 256. So James stood toe to toe with him for 24 rounds. You can't be just tough to do that. Has anybody in the history of boxing made such a transition. From 156 to 256 and as shot as he is he still hasn't been put away. 100 fights almost fighting the best, never ducking, never holding, never clinching, hitting low, running or head butting. James Toney is a legend. You'd be praising Bernard Hopkins but Bernard ain't old school like James is old school. Bernard ain't tough or skilled like James is. Floyd does a shoulder roll but who was the best at it, that's right James Toney. Floyd doesn't really roll his shoulder either. Floyd can't do the shoulder roll properly against southpaws, he tries but it ain't working too much. James would do it against southpaws just as good. James Toney is the toughest most skilled and talented natural born fighter that boxing has seen. No quit in him, no holding, no head butting, no running, no low blows, fighting everybody out of shape or in shape, beating most people up, fighting small guys, fighting big guys, it didn't matter, southpaws, orthodox fighters, mma fighters, it didn't matter, almost 100 fights, beating people in the Kronk gym, one of the best trash talkers, best chin, ruffed up Deion Sanders. This post was so on the money and then you said the bold part. SMH.

james toney had success from middleweight to HW. in classics from 160 to 200 lbs. made a ton of money. was a potent offensive fighter in his day, and one of the trickiest guys in the sport. so yes, he was incredibly talented especially when you consider that he didn't always train hard. and he had great skills. toney's only problem was that he didn't train hard or eat right all the time. it likely contributed to the issues he's had with his pituitary gland, along with all of that head trauma. Except that wasn't his only problem. The fact he has poor footwork was a problem. The fact he can't fight off the backfoot was a problem. The fact he can't cut off the ring was a problem. The fact he can't make adjustments was a problem. The fact he can't block a right hook to the body to save his life was a problem. The fact he can't avoid a jab was a problem. The fact he loads up on his punches was a problem often causing him to cross his feet over. Toney was a flawed fighter, to act like the only reason he fell short was his lack of discipline is a nothing more than a bad joke.