Excessive holding, please clarify what constitutes a foul?

Excessive holding turned out to be not the problem in the Crawford fight. It's excessive running. I don't think you can implement any rule in such case. Both were holding even in the slightest trouble.

Blaming Povetkin(!): http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13823874&postcount=3 One of "10 best wins"(!): http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=688198 http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16038936&postcount=17 "Greatness" of: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=636849 Special appearance of a post again blaming Povetkin: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14474371&postcount=4 I have no words on this post: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14474425&postcount=9 Again, Povetkin's fault: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13862992&postcount=13 Ref's fault: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13862999&postcount=14 No comment: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665256 No comment here either: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15754534&postcount=8 Sure, there's people criticizing every blue moon, but compare that to Floyd or even Canelo's critics. It's not even close. Kudos on your research, but like I said you're not going to have as many posts on Wlad as you would on Mayweather (or Canelo for that matter) so the total level of criticism is going to be lower. Add in that Wlad isn't half as polarising as those figures and you're obviously not going to be getting so much nonsense associated with him. That's not the same as him getting a pass on his fights, though.

floyds reflexes have slowed So he clinches more often ..he clinches too much imo. He mixes over moving and clinching to stink up the fight and rhythm of the opponent. He should have been warned at the very least a few times. Ward is just plain excessive and needs to be docked points. Wlad is just ruthless and needs to be DQd

No, no it is not. If the NSB search would actually work right, you'd get at least 3x the posts claiming that Floyd held "excessively" against Manny. When he did an average of 1 per round. How is 1 per round "excessive"? It isn't - salty people just wanted Floyd to put himself at risk so they could see him lose. You would also get numerous posts claiming Grabomir is some legend when he held an average of FOURTEEN TIMES per round against Povetkin. Excuses like "oh but that's heavyweight, they get tired". Come on man. TO this day people claim Rumble in the Jungle is one of the greatest boxing matches in history yet it was a straight up clinchfest. Yet Floyd uses it roughly ONCE per round and gets criticized. Of course, but Floyd is Floyd and the FOTC dwarfs any other fight in years so it's natural you're going to get a lot more BS as a result. But I defy you to find any reasonably discussed thread on Wlad Povetkin where Wlad wasn't heavily criticised for his clinching and other foul tactics. I closely followed the fallout of that abortion, and I remember even Freedom voicing his disgust at the time, along with a number of hardliners who'd normally excuse Wlad anything. I certainly don't remember numerous posts praising Wlad as a legend, not from the majority of posters anyway. TBH, your portrayal of the fight strikes me as a bit of an excuse to create a straw man.

You punch and clinch to prevent return fire, you also clinch if he is charging in, it's ok. But if someone is not fighting, not throwing punches, and clinching just to kill time again and again just like Broner did to Porter, it's a foul.

Wladimirs record would have looked a lot different if he wasnt allowed to grab and lean on people, funnily enough when he fought a bigger man who even if he wanted to, tyson ' 2 fast' fury, he lost and lost conclusively and lack of actual boxing skill was shown up. David haye was rightly criticised for his performance against wlad but wtf is he meant to do, cant outjab him from outside because of reach, as soon as he gets in close the robot gives him a bearhug. Same with povetkin, thats probably the worst of it ive seen. And yet *****kos fans claim that as one of his greatest 'performances'. I recall even a lot of Wlad's hardcore fans criticising him for that fight.

I think judges should start docking points for excessive holding. That would clear up a lot of problems with modern boxing.

And if it's up to "discretion of the ref" that's BS As with most things in the ring, it is up to the ref.

Any solution on how to eliminate this scourge in boxing? Any ideas? Options: 1. If you happen to be on the ring side throw paper rocks, left over foods, except bottles, or anything that could cause injury. 2. Go on social media and post the picture of the ref everywhere and make him feel like a fugitive. Like they say, go to the root of the problem. Make it specific. Throw the generalities in the garbage. 3. Blame the ref, not the fighter... 4. Start threads like this days before the fight begins or bring it up on social media... 5. What else...

Exactly. Too many people salty about TBE domesticating Manny fail to realize that Floyd RARELY held in that fight. They just didn't want him clinching at all so he was at risk of getting knocked out. That's not the way it works. The clinch is a tool to stop momentum. Perfectly legal especially with how infrequently TBE did it against Manny. The reason he did it so much against Maidana was because Maidana is a windmiller; he just throws. I have no issue with it. I still don't hear people criticizing Grabomir Clinchko for the Povetkin fight. THAT is excessive clinching. Period. It and the Rumble in the Jungle are the two worst offenders, and any other fight pales in comparison to those two. What are you talking about? That fight is constantly criticised.

Every time Manny got close Floyd held So Manny only got close just over a dozen times in a 12 round fight? An average of once a round, or twice if you're generous with rounding? Interesting.

Exactly. Too many people salty about TBE domesticating Manny fail to realize that Floyd RARELY held in that fight. They just didn't want him clinching at all so he was at risk of getting knocked out. That's not the way it works. The clinch is a tool to stop momentum. Perfectly legal especially with how infrequently TBE did it against Manny. The reason he did it so much against Maidana was because Maidana is a windmiller; he just throws. I have no issue with it. I still don't hear people criticizing Grabomir Clinchko for the Povetkin fight. THAT is excessive clinching. Period. It and the Rumble in the Jungle are the two worst offenders, and any other fight pales in comparison to those two. Every time Manny got close Floyd held

Why it's so hard for these refs to warn the excessive hugger is still a mystery to this day. The opponent is virtually fighting two people in the ring. That's why I don't mind rabbit punching as a means of retaliation. Because One guy selects his ref and gives him a bonus check

"Why it's so hard for these refs to warn the excessive hugger is still a mystery to this day. The opponent is virtually fighting two people in the ring. That's why I don't mind rabbit punching as a means of retaliation." I think it's because holding and clinching are legal to a certain degree. Very subjective, that's why it's problematic and I think there should be more clear rules

Why it's so hard for these refs to warn the excessive hugger is still a mystery to this day. The opponent is virtually fighting two people in the ring. That's why I don't mind rabbit punching as a means of retaliation.

1) Clinching shouldnt be allowed when you use it after your offense to prevent your opponent to retaliate. For example: Jab, Jab, Straight, clinch. Jab, Jab, clinch. (Hopkins and Klitschko are using this "technique" sometimes). 2) Clinching also shouldnt be allowed when you time your opponents combination to get in a clinch to shut down his offense. Better should foot movement or engage with him and use side to side movement. (Floyd, Postol and Ward) 3) Clinching should be allowed when you are hurt to hold on for dear life. 4) Clinching should also be allowed when you have an excessive crude fighter like porter trying to bumrush you headon. What else can you do? lol

If they work in the clinch I am fine with it. What Wlad does is just too negative. Especially against shorter opponents when he clinches and leans on. Seems a bit cheap.

It would make a huge significant difference if only the ref enforces the rules. Most of these excessive huggers lack skills on the inside.

I don't have a problem with a bit of rough inside fighting that might include some wrestling or holding so long as both fighters are working to land punches. That sort of fighting can actually be quite enjoyable to watch, and a nice counterpoint to more clinical outside boxing. When a fighter clinches like Wlad Klitschko it should automatically be penalised.

excessive clinching to me goes along with other non boxing fouls meant to get an advantage. If some uses a forearm to make space excessively its a foul after warnings, pushes a fighter off excessively to get space its a foul after warnings, clinches excessively, measures/ stiff arms, there are several non scoring moves that can be used to gain advantages it depends on the flow of the fight as well as refs