Is Luis Ortiz Overrated Poll?!?!?!?

depends on how one views him, is he a top 10 heavyweight? by modern standards yes...is he some indestructible beast? I highly doubt it.

The point was you can't go by photos, as unless you're measuring body fat percentage, saying "he still looks chiselled" doesn't mean you can be confident he hasn't made changes naturally. I'm sure you do know people that are gym rats, we all know gym rats! "my mate down the gym" but gyms rats aren't comparable to professional athletes, who have access to professional trainers, professional coaches, professional nutritionists and so on. Wilder weighed in at 228lbs in January (15th), what was his weigh in for the recent postponed fight? without checking and added weight within 3 and half months? I don't see any reason to use that to suggest he must clearly be using peds. Not that i'm saying for definite either way, just often all people go by, is how someone looks in a photo. my source is the interview in youtube where Wilder said he is going to be heavy around 245-250 for this fight with Povetkin.. No official weight was taken as the fight did not happen, but we'll know on 15-July weigh in against Arreola.. Edit: http://******.craveonline.com/news/376013-bermane-stiverne-weighs-in-at-239-pounds-deontay-wilder-at-219-2 He was 219 against Stiverne in Jan'15, 229 against Molina in June, 228.6 in Sep against Duhaupas, 228 against Spzilka in Jan'16. He wanted to go to 245-250 in May..

I am a science grad who happen to have knowledge on human anatomy, I aint no doctor for sure, so pardon me if my explanation/terms come across as student like & not a pro.. But I still back my claim that an athlete who is past his genetic prime(30 yrs) simply cannot gain 20-30lbs of muscle mass with no fat in matter of 2-3 months. bulking up & maintaining the muscle mass is a gradual process & in most cases needs the right supplements & diet.. Gaining 30lbs needs right supplements & that's what I am calling out as a red flag that these supplements are enhancing your body grow so fast.. You know where I am going with this.. if you are training 6-8 hrs a day & doing cardio, set this routine up for 6 days a week, your body doesn't get the right time to gain the muscle mass, its only logical.. Also, your appetite is driven by your body need & the more your burn, the more you consume.. I know people who are gym rats & are athletically built like Wilder is but aren't able to gain that mass weight just by their protein/carb diet.. The point was you can't go by photos, as unless you're measuring body fat percentage, saying "he still looks chiselled" doesn't mean you can be confident he hasn't made changes naturally. I'm sure you do know people that are gym rats, we all know gym rats! "my mate down the gym" but gyms rats aren't comparable to professional athletes, who have access to professional trainers, professional coaches, professional nutritionists and so on. Wilder weighed in at 228lbs in January (15th), what was his weigh in for the recent postponed fight? without checking and added weight within 3 and half months? I don't see any reason to use that to suggest he must clearly be using peds. Not that i'm saying for definite either way, just often all people go by, is how someone looks in a photo.

Ortiz was much more impressive against Jennings than Klitschko was. But you always have to wonder if he is clean or not given his past PED history.

Thread should have been will hype jobs continue to avoid Ortiz. Yes I'm talking about Joshua and Wilder. Besides I want these two lepers to face Klitschko so he can retire having cleared out this new wave of contender also. Fück Ortiz and Fury, they're both cheats.

You can't judge by photos, as unless you're with a boxer in his camp, you won't see the development of his body, the changes in his physique and his training methods. Its too simplistic to judge someone by a before and after photo, or say "he put on this much muscle in such months, but no fat". Not all individuals put on muscle and burn fat at the same rate, thats scientifically proven, which is why you often have the boxer with a beer belly calling out boxers for using peds, as they can't understand why a certain individual is building muscle (or losing fat) quicker then he is. I am a science grad who happen to have knowledge on human anatomy, I aint no doctor for sure, so pardon me if my explanation/terms come across as student like & not a pro.. But I still back my claim that an athlete who is past his genetic prime(30 yrs) simply cannot gain 20-30lbs of muscle mass with no fat in matter of 2-3 months. bulking up & maintaining the muscle mass is a gradual process & in most cases needs the right supplements & diet.. Gaining 30lbs needs right supplements & that's what I am calling out as a red flag that these supplements are enhancing your body grow so fast.. You know where I am going with this.. I've seen first hand of whats possible by training naturally with individuals that can take months off training and maintain a certain condition, yet another guy will take months off training and lose a greater amount of muscle, so what would your reaction be? the guy that still looked in great shape must be a roider. if you are training 6-8 hrs a day & doing cardio, set this routine up for 6 days a week, your body doesn't get the right time to gain the muscle mass, its only logical.. Also, your appetite is driven by your body need & the more your burn, the more you consume.. I know people who are gym rats & are athletically built like Wilder is but aren't able to gain that mass weight just by their protein/carb diet..

It's hard to say. I think the way he knocked out Jennings was impressive though. He's definitely high risk - low reward so i think most won't fancy it. Would be beat the top heavyweights? i don't know, maybe or maybe not, but i'd imagine he will give them a hell of a fight either way. Probably not worth the risk of finding out for very little return.

I had a same opinion on other threads.. Wilder a natural 215-220 pound guy put on 20-30lbs for Povetkin fight & all in just 2-3 months time.. Serious red flag there if you aren't hitting Burger/Pastry joints all those time & still look chiseled with no baggage of those additional weights.. You can't judge by photos, as unless you're with a boxer in his camp, you won't see the development of his body, the changes in his physique and his training methods. Its too simplistic to judge someone by a before and after photo, or say "he put on this much muscle in such months, but no fat". Not all individuals put on muscle and burn fat at the same rate, thats scientifically proven, which is why you often have the boxer with a beer belly calling out boxers for using peds, as they can't understand why a certain individual is building muscle (or losing fat) quicker then he is. I've seen first hand of whats possible by training naturally with individuals that can take months off training and maintain a certain condition, yet another guy will take months off training and lose a greater amount of muscle, so what would your reaction be? the guy that still looked in great shape must be a roider.

I under-rated him and he has surprised me with some of his skills. But those doping tests.....

Don't know, he has to fight against the top heavyweights in order to determine that.

For instance you have fans (understandably) condemning Povetkin and Fury for PED use yet still backing Joshua and Wilder, two men who are obviously chemically enhanced but are 'clean' only in the sense that they've never failed a test. That's fair enough from a sporting rules POV. But it also supposes you consider the drug testing orgs to be infallible and/or uncorruptible, which of course they aren't. I had a same opinion on other threads.. Wilder a natural 215-220 pound guy put on 20-30lbs for Povetkin fight & all in just 2-3 months time.. Serious red flag there if you aren't hitting Burger/Pastry joints all those time & still look chiseled with no baggage of those additional weights..

Ortiz is no hype job, but he is no boogieman either.. He might pose problems to likes of Wlad & Fury.. Might even win over Wilder/Joshua.. The best part is the hype about Ortiz is from the hardcore & HW circle than the promoters or networks.. He KO'd Jennings, beat a washed up & dried Thompson, the only 2 good names on his resume & honestly that's better than Wilder & Joshua.. But honestly we cannot read much into the Thompson fight as he came for a payday.. I like for him to mix with the top 10 to see where he stands & for us to see what he can bring.. He has good work rate & good footwork, but lacks ring iq and is not good with his defense..

He got popped for an actual steroid I have no time for him, Povetkin or Arreola for failing tests

Yeah he was caught twice Once bitten, twice shy.. Twice guilty still not banned, why!!? :dunno:

Eastcoast, You make some fair points. However I'm not convinced by athletes using certain excuses, as surely drug testing has been designed to catch someone who is a cheat and the levels in your body can't reach a certain point unless you have intentionally put illegal drugs in your system? I take a cynical approach on this, as everyone has an excuse when they are caught and depending on how good you are at lying, you can make it seem like you're the victim. The poster above has suggested Ortiz was caught twice? if true then I can't see how anyone can defend him. He may have talent, natural talent, a skillful boxer, so you could argue he has wasted that talent if we're only hearing about him at an age when most boxers are considering retirement. No Ortiz tested positive just the one time for Nandrolone after he KO'd Lateef Kayode in '14. He got fined 10% of his purse, suspended 8 months, and stripped of his WBA title. But he was also subjected to random testing for the next year. Part of his plea deal was that he was a first time offender. http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/12157967/luis-ortiz-stripped-heavyweight-belt-ko-win

I can agree with most of that. Seeing professional athletes get busted for PEDs is bad enough, but then to realize it's happening all the way down to the grade school level where no testing exists at all is depressing and frustrating. I agree we need serious punishments to stop this, but life-time bans on 1st time offenders doesn't seem right. The fighter needs to have serious financial penalties based on the circumstances, but also the people around them need to share the blame. Trainers, S&C coaches, promoters, and managers should all take a hit so that they have an incentive to keep their guys clean moving forward. I just can't agree with the instant removal of guys who are currently getting busted for the first time. We need to first address the problem with current testing standards, then need to address the problem with current system of punishment for getting caught. Some guys get caught and still are allowed to fight. That happened with both Tarver and Ferando Vargas. In Vargas' case, there's an argument that it was circumstantial based on that drugs prevalence in the cattle. Whether that's true or a convenient alibi we'll never know. But I couldn't ban him for life over it. Lamont Peterson got caught seriously jacking up his T-level, but he's come back a clean fighter for which I'm grateful. Eastcoast, You make some fair points. However I'm not convinced by athletes using certain excuses, as surely drug testing has been designed to catch someone who is a cheat and the levels in your body can't reach a certain point unless you have intentionally put illegal drugs in your system? I take a cynical approach on this, as everyone has an excuse when they are caught and depending on how good you are at lying, you can make it seem like you're the victim. The poster above has suggested Ortiz was caught twice? if true then I can't see how anyone can defend him. He may have talent, natural talent, a skillful boxer, so you could argue he has wasted that talent if we're only hearing about him at an age when most boxers are considering retirement.

no he definitely would ko wilder

Depends on the crime, as I'm happy for a man caught stealing a happy meal from Macdonalds to have a second chance, but if a man rapes a woman in Macdonalds then no second chance. My issue with drug cheats (in sport) is the damage it does to the reputation, the message we send out to young sportsmen that its ok to cheat once, if you get caught you can comeback, but if you manage to evade being caught then you're on the verge of greatness. I'm not being naive regarding drug use in sport, I know what's going on and I know there will be individuals out there that have developed a system that means they avoid detection. However as soon as any fighter, any athlete is talented, has big pecs, or hits harder then the rest, fans say "he must be dirty". If we allow dirty fighters to remain in the sport, it means we're happy for drug cheats to be here, which sends out the wrong message. I can agree with most of that. Seeing professional athletes get busted for PEDs is bad enough, but then to realize it's happening all the way down to the grade school level where no testing exists at all is depressing and frustrating. I agree we need serious punishments to stop this, but life-time bans on 1st time offenders doesn't seem right. The fighter needs to have serious financial penalties based on the circumstances, but also the people around them need to share the blame. Trainers, S&C coaches, promoters, and managers should all take a hit so that they have an incentive to keep their guys clean moving forward. I just can't agree with the instant removal of guys who are currently getting busted for the first time. We need to first address the problem with current testing standards, then need to address the problem with current system of punishment for getting caught. Some guys get caught and still are allowed to fight. That happened with both Tarver and Ferando Vargas. In Vargas' case, there's an argument that it was circumstantial based on that drugs prevalence in the cattle. Whether that's true or a convenient alibi we'll never know. But I couldn't ban him for life over it. Lamont Peterson got caught seriously jacking up his T-level, but he's come back a clean fighter for which I'm grateful.

According to a poster called WTF huck on a boxing forum? OK. From my experience of working in sport, any individual that is (clean) but is better/stronger/faster then the rest, will have to deal with rumours, being labelled dirty or "he must be on something". That just says more about the people spreading the rumours, as while there will of course be cheats out there (that haven't been caught) there are talented individuals who don't have to cheat. You're naïve if you think anyone in the top ten is clean.

innocent till proven guilty You're free to take that tack, but if I were you I'd feel pretty stupid backing a guy like Joshua simply because he hasn't failed a test yet.