If Haymon doesn't bail out Top Rank... is Arum finished?

-HBO is avaliable in basically 40% more homes than Showtime, so there's that. Kinda making my point there.

Sturm is 37 years old and looking at retirement or suspension. As for Ramirez, he averaged over twice as many viewers on HBO against Vlasov (820k) than Badou Jack (336k) and James Degale (397k) did in their last fights out on SHO. Gilberto Ramirez has more growth potential in the US market than either Jack or Degale, and if he keeps winning and gets regular backing on HBO, he will become a bigger gate/tv attraction than either. -HBO is avaliable in basically 40% more homes than Showtime, so there's that. -When projecting out "growth potential", my general rule of thumb, as referenced by Max Kellerman, is that you go with the better talent. Talent for talent, I don't think Ramirez is all that talented and the little bit that I've seen doesn't show me much else. James Degale has far more US growth potential, in my opinion, because he's the better fighter.

Felix Sturm is still a massive name in Germany; even though he's just about past it, you can bring him in as a name opponent for a voluntary defense and goose up the German TV money for a fight in the UK (with Showtime International airing the fight to show Degale). In terms of Ramirez, even if he gets two belts around his waste, simply putting him on HBO and having him crush cans, while talking up a fight with Golovkin, imo won't launch him to stardom. Bet on Bob Arum if you want. Sturm is 37 years old and looking at retirement or suspension. As for Ramirez, he averaged over twice as many viewers on HBO against Vlasov (820k) than Badou Jack (336k) and James Degale (397k) did in their last fights out on SHO. Gilberto Ramirez has more growth potential in the US market than either Jack or Degale, and if he keeps winning and gets regular backing on HBO, he will become a bigger gate/tv attraction than either.

Even if you're simply lining up names, Sturm's makes little to no sense to mention at this point. Obviusly the Ramirez-Chudinov outcome depends on the fight getting made, but if they're already having discussions then there is a possibility it does get made. As for the then what....whether he has one title or two, Ramirez is a Mexican fighter with a world title, with a promoter that knows how to market fighters to the Mexican/Mexican American market. What's next is probably main events, either on HBO or HBO PPV, and if he has two titles at 168 then, depending on what happens with Golovkin-Canelo, you could start to see talk of Ramirez-Golovkin heat up. Frankly, whether Golovkin-Canelo happens next year or not, Ramirez may end up being a bigger money fight than some of the options 160 outside of Canelo. Whether a Golovkin fight actually happens in the near furture or Arum just uses Golovkin's name for press, that fight becomes a more of a talking point if Ramirez has two titles, and if he becomes a gate/tv attraction...which really doesn't seem that far-fetched should he beat Britsch and win again in the fall (Chudinov or not). Felix Sturm is still a massive name in Germany; even though he's just about past it, you can bring him in as a name opponent for a voluntary defense and goose up the German TV money for a fight in the UK (with Showtime International airing the fight to show Degale). In terms of Ramirez, even if he gets two belts around his waste, simply putting him on HBO and having him crush cans, while talking up a fight with Golovkin, imo won't launch him to stardom. Bet on Bob Arum if you want.

Simply lining up the names that Degale has access to (through Haymon, Eddie Hearn, and Hearn's affiliaion with the Sauerlands); not singling out Sturm as a guy that Degale should chase, just noting that he's a money fight that's available to him. Yes, Ramirez could have two belts, the same as potentially Degale, if he were to 1)get the Chudinov fight and 2)beat Chudinov. He gets the belts ... and then what? Even if you're simply lining up names, Sturm's makes little to no sense to mention at this point. Obviusly the Ramirez-Chudinov outcome depends on the fight getting made, but if they're already having discussions then there is a possibility it does get made. As for the then what....whether he has one title or two, Ramirez is a Mexican fighter with a world title, with a promoter that knows how to market fighters to the Mexican/Mexican American market. What's next is probably main events, either on HBO or HBO PPV, and if he has two titles at 168 then, depending on what happens with Golovkin-Canelo, you could start to see talk of Ramirez-Golovkin heat up. Frankly, whether Golovkin-Canelo happens next year or not, Ramirez may end up being a bigger money fight than some of the options 160 outside of Canelo. Whether a Golovkin fight actually happens in the near furture or Arum just uses Golovkin's name for press, that fight becomes a more of a talking point if Ramirez has two titles, and if he becomes a gate/tv attraction...which really doesn't seem that far-fetched should he beat Britsch and win again in the fall (Chudinov or not).

Obviously Haymon moves differently I just don't see how a Hearn-like relationship with Arum is bad in any way. Plus I could see Haymon picking up some TR guys like he picked up some Hearn guys. Haymon needs more big names, Arum needs more TV time. Its win win. If ego's &/or money prevent things from happening fair enough its nothing new or anything, but one of the bigger problems in boxing today is too many egos & too much greed already. It appears that I view Bob Arum as being a far more toxic player than you seem to view Bob Arum to be. Haymon/Hearn works, in my opinion, both guys seem to be able to cordially talk business, both guys seem to know where the other has their vision set (Haymon with his PBC venture; Hearn, leveraging his longterm deal with Sky Sports, to re-establish the UK as one of the world's top boxing markets ), and Eddie Hearn has a stand-up reputation in his home market (outside of Frank Warren and Mick Hennessey, Eddie Hearn seems to have no other enemies in the UK/European fight scene). Arum's reputation, in essence, is **** everywhere; HBO isn't chomping at the bit to work with him, MGM Resorts isn't really going out of their way to do business with him in Vegas, Banner Promotions/Zanfer Promotions aren't bending over to work with the guy, etc. Haymon will likely troll for talent (when deals start to come up, I have no doubt that Haymon will look to a guy like Cameron Dunkin to see if there is any interest in moving fighters away from Top Rank for their next deals) at Top Rank, but I don't see the value in working with Bob Arum. Todd DuBoef/Carl Morretti, on the other hand, are different (outside of Lou DiBella having beef with Morretti, DuBoef and Morretti both still have stand-up reputations in the sport); remove Bob Arum from the picture and you basically remove near all of the bad blood (Peter Nelson/MGM Resorts/Haymon/etc) against Top Rank.

http://nypost.com/2016/05/20/msgs-shot-at-boxing-mega-fight-may-vanish-with-mma-clause/ Proposed MMA clause would ‘end boxing in NY as we know it’ http://nypost.com/2016/05/17/proposed-mma-clause-would-end-boxing-in-ny-as-we-know-it/ MSG’s shot at boxing mega-fight may vanish with MMA clause simply a matter of political movement, which is okay. have Lou, the folks behind MSG, the folks behind Barclays Center, and the rest of the folks in combat sports who bring business to New York, go to the state legislature and make their case. Things are cool through the end of September, but when the NY Chamber of Commerce and the trade unions looks at things, and they see that they'll likely miss out on bringing in events like Garcia/Berto winner vs Thurman/Porter winner, Wilder vs Fury for the undisputed heavyweight championship, Kovalev vs Ward, possibly Miguel Cotto's retirement fight with Juan Manuel Marquez, and a host of other matchups (both guys need to keep on winning, but Wilder-Joshua in another 16 months would be another massive event), adjustments and changes will be made. state/local politics

What are you talking about Felix Sturm for? Sturm was talking retirement even before he tested positive after the Chudinov rematch. He's now certainly out of the picture and Chudinov's manager has already started negotiations for a fight with Ramirez in the fall. If Ramirez unifies the WBO/WBA titles then he'd have the same number of titles as the Degale-Jack winner. Simply lining up the names that Degale has access to (through Haymon, Eddie Hearn, and Hearn's affiliaion with the Sauerlands); not singling out Sturm as a guy that Degale should chase, just noting that he's a money fight that's available to him. Yes, Ramirez could have two belts, the same as potentially Degale, if he were to 1)get the Chudinov fight and 2)beat Chudinov. He gets the belts ... and then what?

Sometimes I think people just like to disagree about minor inconsequential **** here LOL. Public persona, public representation, whatever you wanna call it, he's the guy lotsa mfers thought was Al Haymon until a couple years & hell some people probably still do think is Haymon. He's without question the closest thing to Haymon that represents Haymon's interests. I ain't saying Sam Watson digs transsexuals too or that Sam's favorite hobby is peeking from behind curtains like Haymon. He's one of the 3 or so people Haymon actually seems to talk to on a regular basis & probably knows where the bodies are buried & whats going on. Thats what I'm saying & I don't believe its even debatable. But I mean sure a cat like Haymon is probably not showing all his cards to anyone & if he were to die suddenly I bet a lot of his businesses, including PBC, would be huge clusterf#cks for that very reason. No please speculate brother. I mean this plan is clearly bigger than a TV deal imo, but I love seeing people speculate on this ****. So few people talk about the long term angle of this in a non-"they'll be outta business any day now" way, its interesting to hear some new thoughts & opinions. I don't know why people thought Sam Watson was Al Haymon. Watson has been in boxing longer than Haymon. You can't infer much as both have very different roles. And personalities methinks. Anyway, if you step back and look at what Haymon is trying to do by moving away from the PPV model, just ask yourself, what would be the ideal next step to stay ahead of the pack?

This is a segment from the previous most notable article about Al Haymon in boxing in 2011 before the last 12 or so months when he's gotten into the limelight more. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/18/sports/behind-the-scenes-haymon-is-shaking-up-the-fight-game.html?_r=0 And Sam Watson's, the public persona of Haymon, quote is from within the last 12 months talking about PBC being bigger than the UFC eventually. Like I said maybe Haymon is doing all this just to get a TV deal cuz there is legit stupid money in live sports these days & as I've been learning more about this live sport niche in TV its only going to get bigger as its one of the most loyal stuck to the TV markets in all of media, but based on some of the things said, the money being thrown around in year 1, the 8 or 9 networks & the amount of fighters connected to Haymon I believe its some bigger. And honestly its something I've been saying someone in boxing will eventually do cuz boxing is about the most notable sport in the world without some elite league of athletes under one umbrella. Boxing is soooooo ripe for this, assuming someone is actually attempting it lol, but I say someone is. Sam Watson is definitely NOT the public persona of Haymon. They work together -- since the music days -- but the two aren't very similar. But anyway, I think it's bigger than just some TV deals but that's the ideal next step and it will happen. The next step after that I think is fairly obvious but I'll keep my thoughts to myself for now.

No I didn't say PBC wants to be HBO or they need 1,000 boxers to be HBO. I said IF THEY ONLY wanna be as big as HBO then they DON'T need a thousand guys on PBC's roster or associated with PBC promoters. And who's not speculating when it comes to PBC? They haven't exactly press released an agenda of their goals for the next 10 years. I'm just going off of whats been said by Haymon, Watson & others associated with Haymon & what all this money indicates to me. You don't need a billion dollars to get a TV deal & to throw boxing on 8 or 9 different channels & to buy up a couple hundred guys' contracts. Thats overkill in my eyes. I really don't want to argue semantics -- bottom line is that we're all speculating but I'm not gonna pretend I know what will or won't help the model fail ie. "if they don't do this then..." But I do wanna know what Haymon said. I missed that.

Have you seen some of what ESPN televises these days, especially during the summer months when there's a dead period with the off-seasons in the NFL and NBA? ESPN is losing television rights battles left and right to other networks, and Haymon offered them a deal that was too good to refuse. So, you honest believe that: a) ESPN turned over its own boxing brand (FNF) to Haymon for a reported 24 dates and a 2 year period b) Moved boxing from ESPN 2 (where FNF was broadcasting) to the 'mothership station' ESPN c) Gave up dates on ABC also (remember, that's part of the ESPN deal too) And they did all this for a measly 8 million bucks (what Haymon's time buy reportedly cost)? You really believe that you can buy dayum near 50 hours of time on ESPN and ABC for that amount of money? Come on, bruh.

I think it says alot. Watson is saying they will be bigger than the UFC. Haymon is quoted as saying he can takeover boxing by the guy who used to run HBO. There's more stuff out there that says more things like that that I can't recall off the dome. He got a half a billion to a billion dollar bankroll & a venture fund guy who's still consulting & has his own venture fund that I won't be surprised if he jumps on if Waddel & whatever go broke. He's buying up massive TV time, he's got the biggest roster of name fighters of anyone in the business, Seems obvious to me he's doing something bigger than most think cuz he's going in on a level no one has in boxing history. I mean to me this can't JUST be about getting a TV deal, but maybe it is. We'll see. Your initial statement was that they need hundreds more fighters or it will fail. You attempted to qualify that by saying well if they want to be an HBO-like entity then yes, they have to. Both statements are wild shots in the dark.

No clue what you mean. PBC isn't a cable network either. Maybe you are just watching (or not watching, as many vocally do) the fights, but from most accounts of whats going on behind the scenes is that PBC's long term goal is to become a elite boxing league not unlike the NFL is for football, the NBA is for basketball & the UFC is for MMA. The reality is no one really knows for sure what the PBC blueprint is, but there are some big bold move quotes out there attributed from Haymon & Haymonites. One of the first stories I read about Haymon from 5 or so years ago when he had less then ten guys advised by him iirc was that he could take over boxing if he wanted to. Yeah that's my point. You said if they want to become an HBO-like entity. And I said what makes you think they want to do that? And then you gave that quote which backed up nothing you wrote before.

... not sure what you're talking about, but okay http://nypost.com/2016/05/20/msgs-shot-at-boxing-mega-fight-may-vanish-with-mma-clause/ Proposed MMA clause would ‘end boxing in NY as we know it’ “If that law is not repealed or changed, it would end boxing in New York as we know it,” Lou DiBella of DiBella Entertainment said. “It’ll be the end of boxing on a regular basis in New York.” http://nypost.com/2016/05/17/proposed-mma-clause-would-end-boxing-in-ny-as-we-know-it/ MSG’s shot at boxing mega-fight may vanish with MMA clause Language in the bill gives the New York State Athletic Commission until Sept. 1 to “adjust” the requirement. Lou DiBella of DiBella Entertainment has said he won’t be scheduling any of his Broadway Boxing series in New York beyond September until the issue is resolved.

Ramirez is 24, yet he could possibly be stuck on the same bum path that Golovkin is currently on. Compare that to a guy like James Degale who, though already 30, has the Badou Jack unification fight lined up next, in addition to Callum Smith, the Murray/Groves winner, and possibly a fight with Felix Sturm in UK/Europe, in addition to the Haymon-backed fighters at 168 (the Dirrell brothers, Peter Quillin moving up, etc) in the US. What are you talking about Felix Sturm for? Sturm was talking retirement even before he tested positive after the Chudinov rematch. He's now certainly out of the picture and Chudinov's manager has already started negotiations for a fight with Ramirez in the fall. If Ramirez unifies the WBO/WBA titles then he'd have the same number of titles as the Degale-Jack winner.

Speaking of Dibella, it'll be interesting to see what happens to him if that million dollar insurance price tag sticks past September. ... not sure what you're talking about, but okay

Have you seen some of what ESPN televises these days, especially during the summer months when there's a dead period with the off-seasons in the NFL and NBA? ESPN is losing television rights battles left and right to other networks, and Haymon offered them a deal that was too good to refuse. ESPN, even in the doldrums of summer, is the default sports channel for most sports fans. People check on the baseball scores, move on with their day, but still come back when football season starts up by August. Haymon came to ESPN with his reputation for TV, a depth of talent, and the cred that ESPN felt good to do business with. Haymon offering up the deal structure that he did definitely gave ESPN no reason to not give him the chance, but the talks wouldn't have even got to that point if his reputation wasn't what it is. No different than FS1 basically giving up on Toe-to-Toe Tuesday with Golden Boy once Schaefer was pushed out: Oscar's reputation, as a man and as a businessman, was the driveling ****s and most parties refused to continue to do business with Golden Boy once they lost the confidence that Golden Boy's business was handled on the repuation of Richard Schaefer. Or how Bob Arum's deal with TruTV (which he even only got on the reputation of Turner Sports, in TimeWarner) went up in smoke once TruTV saw what Arum actually brought to the table. If Oscar or Bob had $1b to work with, neither guy would get ESPN, or any other channel, to sit at the table and even get through the intro conversations about a deal, let alone get to the point of where money was being discussed.

Why does there have to be something immediately following those initial fights? Most of those fighters are young: Jose Ramirez is 23, Jesse Magdaleno is 24, Gilberto Ramirez is 24, Oscar Valdez is 25. They're all active and fight regularly...they'll probably all have at least 3 fights this year. If Top Rank can get them regular fights on HBO/PPV, then some of them will likely grow into gate/tv attractions. Start/stopping a star hardly ever works out, from what I've seen. Floyd's a special example, but once he was ready for the start of his star push, he fought Arturo Gatti and then continued on with big marketable fights until his star launched (Sharmba Mitchell to debut at 147, but then Judah/Baldomir/Oscar/Hatton and then he was set as a star). Ramirez is 24, yet he could possibly be stuck on the same bum path that Golovkin is currently on. Compare that to a guy like James Degale who, though already 30, has the Badou Jack unification fight lined up next, in addition to Callum Smith, the Murray/Groves winner, and possibly a fight with Felix Sturm in UK/Europe, in addition to the Haymon-backed fighters at 168 (the Dirrell brothers, Peter Quillin moving up, etc) in the US. It's going to be on him to win the fights, but Haymon/Hearn have James Degale lined up with a plan that should launch him into stardom in the next 16-18 months. What's the plan for Gilberto Ramirez? Squashing cans will get him to ~1.2m viewers on HBO, but it won't do anything to get the paying audience to back him.

Whatever pluses that might come with Arum are outweighed by the negatives; if the goal is to capitalize on finding talent, I'd imagine that Carl Morretti would have more to do with the actual nitty gritty than Bob Arum would. Haymon's image of Bob Arum, in my opinion, was crystallized in the way that he handled working with Arum for the Mayweather-Pacquiao fight, namely in how (outside of giving Pacquiao the Phillipines TV rights to the fight) Bob Arum was basically removed from every decision making question for the card, outside of what fight he wanted to put in his slots on the show. Arum wasn't even allowed to offer up a suggestion on the lights. Not sure how else to describe it, but Haymon moves different; Haymon and DiBella work because, though Lou has a persona and his own issues about him, Lou gets the work done, knows how to move things in his markets, and has yet to really burn any bridges with anyone. Speaking of Dibella, it'll be interesting to see what happens to him if that million dollar insurance price tag sticks past September.