ther rise of defensive domination and the decline of entertainment-a thesis by daggum

This thread is not about floyd-pac so please don't talk about it unless you are citing examples from that fight. This thread will be discussing the uneven relationship between defensive fouls and offensive fouls and how defensive fouls have become a common part of boxing strategy. So my question is is it really great defense if it's not even legal? example: If a fighter keeps landing low blows over and over he is punished(unless his name is danny garcia or mares) yet when a fighter continually clinches or bends below the waist(both things are illegal) he rarely if ever is punished. This inherently gives the advantage to any fighter who is willing to go outside the rules and do these kind of moves. Why is one foul(low blows) so harshly criticized while defensive fouls go ignored? Is it because we have been conditioned to accept them as "part of boxing" and why haven't low blows and other offensive fouls become a "part of boxing" Is it because fouls like low blows or thumbing someone in the eye can possibly have an effect on the outcome? don't defensive fouls also have an outcome on the fight? they completely disrupt and stop the other fighters offensive attack. I would argue that the refs failure to take action against these fouls has a direct outcome on the fight as well. If you look at the sheer numbers guys like wlad, ward, and floyd commit these defensive fouls sometimes over a hundred times per fight. why would they keep doing it if it didn't help them? yet if you had a fighter throwing a hundred low blows they would be dq'd almost for sure. Also when scoring a fight people seem to give these fighters who commit defensive fouls credit under the defensive category which is puzzling since you would not give someone clean punching credit if he was landing low blows. why the disconnect between the two? These unpunished fouls also affect the entertainment value of a fight. A fighter who can disrupt the offensive rhythm of his opponent by clinching/bending makes the fight very boring because there is no flow to the fight(which is why they do it) The fight is essentially only fought when the guy committing defensive fouls wants it to be fought because he can just stop the action whenever he pleases. If boxing wants to grow its fan base and actually keep viewers they need to seriously look at enforcing the rules on both sides of the coin offensively and defensively. I don't think its too much to ask to simply follow the rules because following the rules would make for much better fights.

Comments (20)

Lol, I can't wait till the sport of boxing turns into an olympic style pot shotting contest. These guys can't all circle jerk with their technical mastery. Haha, I must be riling up these losers tonight cus they can't stop searching through my post history, just lol.

11y ago

kafkod

ducking 'below the belt' is technically not a foul. After looking it up, the term used is "bending below the waist", which means the same thing.

11y ago

JTfloyd

are people really using clinching as an excuse? he didnt do it as muc has he did in the maidana fight. Its hilarious that this topic only came up because of the disdain for a faded 38 year old boxer who didn't even clinch that much. I hated how he fought Maidana in the rematch because he substituted clinching for punching at times, and he's more capable than that. For the Pac fight, he didn't clinch nearly as much, but I think he could've done alot more offensively. When he clinched in the first round and worked Pac's body with the right hand, I thought that's what he should be doing, since Manny has no inside game to speak of. For every round after, he did it to blunt Pac rushing in, but didn't let his hands go while doing it. Floyd is one of my favorite fighters, but I think he could've worn Pac out on the inside and stopped him in the later rounds, WITHOUT putting himself at much risk. Instead, he used his jab and straight right to neutralize Manny, throwing a hook or uppercut every now and again. Dunno why anyone is surprised the fight turned out the way it did, to be honest.

11y ago

The_Gambler1981

I am still of the belief that I don't want the ref that involved. I could see it being called differently than it is now, maybe with some other changes to encourage offense. I am also of the belief that guys should play to win and boxing isn't ballroom dancing getting a bit dirty is almost always advised. Pep-Saddler III was the dirtiest fight of all time right?

11y ago

The_Gambler1981

besides diego chaves, have you seen someone being dq for clinching? it sucks that the referees allow it so much Henry Akinwande against Lennox DQ in general are very uncommon.

11y ago

Spoon23

You cant even take the loss with class I have said, it could have gone either way. I will reserve my congratulation to Floyd after I've seen the USADA showing on video he was tested and how many. Last time I checked Pac got vampire drawn 13x, Floyd up to this date has no sign of being tested. Lastly, there were close rounds that would have gone either way. Swing rounds that judges all gave to the hometown boy. It can be argued those rounds can be Pac rounds. If they gave those to Pac it could have been a draw or even a win for Pac, just telling how I see it. As Mosely, Holyfield saw it too.Pac was the effective aggressor.

11y ago

ADP02

"It's a scientific fact that Mayweather will never fight Pacquaio" Daggum Nobody really said that and if they did you know what they meant. Floyd will wait until the right moment where he not as concerned about losing. If you are honest with yourself, you would admit that you have never seen Floyd so concerned as him facing Manny. Even Floyd Sr was freaking out. Floyd fought Manny 5/6 years later than we wanted him to. After many battles that Manny had. Same with Cotto. Same with Oscar and Mosley.

11y ago

PEsco

are people really using clinching as an excuse? he didnt do it as muc has he did in the maidana fight.

11y ago

sicko

boxing is truly a dying sport joke sport. the public reception of the 'fight of the century' was very negative. all over the world people were trashing floyd's performance and joking about that snooze fest of a fight. can't believe ppv was $100 hahahahahahahahahaha. only reason why boxing is still around and still sells is because of nostalgia of the glory days. people want so badly for this sport to come back to life, but it can't. everyone needs to wake up and realize this. this 'farce of the century' was the final nail in the coffin. will the casuals/general public buy into another expensive ppv????? i doubt it. boxing will forever remain at the bottom of the barrel of the sports entertainment world. UFC >>> boxing ..people need to accept this now. UFC? :lol1: UFC haven't grown at all, in fact is has decreased since Brock Lesnar went back to the WWE and GSP Retired, now Jon Jones is suspended. UFC is not taking over sh1t but it would be great to get rid of fans like you who do nothing but Complain like a Woman

11y ago

Adamjr91

LOL at OP and all simpletons on this thread. The answer is obvious! In the past, it was perfectly acceptable to have plodding feet, upright body and a head on a stick. It was perfectly acceptable to brawl and trade and be a punch bag because the punches were so weak and nobody was really athletic enough to bend around punches. It was not necessary to be evasive. But as power, speed, agility developed it became increasingly dire for the boxer who had to sustain more vicious damage using the old punch bag methods of boxing. All that changed circa 1980, when the idea was hit upon by chance that it just might be possible to hit your opponent whilst avoiding getting hit yourself!! This was really a very exciting time for boxing and culminated in the guys like Wlad, Ward and Floyd you speak of today. Phew! Just in the knick of time, the boxers were saved by this new school of self-protection. You can agree than that Muhammed Ali was before his time. Boxing needs to change. Less hugging, less winning by Olympic style points, but should depend on the quality of punches thrown. Jab should not be equal to power shots and to encourage putting the hurt in the hurt game than rather pitty patting punches the whole 12 rounds. Running and running to stink a fight A referee should give a deduction to force fighters to engage than to keep on making it a marathon fight. Floyd single handedly had shown the world how to stink a boxing match. It's a good thing then that Mayweather landed more jabs and more 'power punches' than Pacquiao last night. There was a gulf in class.

11y ago

OneHittaQuitta1

Boxing needs to change. Less hugging, less winning by Olympic style points, but should depend on the quality of punches thrown. Jab should not be equal to power shots and to encourage putting the hurt in the hurt game than rather pitty patting punches the whole 12 rounds. Running and running to stink a fight A referee should give a deduction to force fighters to engage than to keep on making it a marathon fight. Floyd single handedly had shown the world how to stink a boxing match. You cant even take the loss with class

11y ago

OneHittaQuitta1

The fight yesterday, was the nail in the coffin. That was a super fight to stink all super fight. It takes 2 to tango. Pac chased for 12 rounds sad to say his dance partner wanted to be a matador and Pac as a bull. People wanted to see action and ferocity by both individuals, Ali vs Frazier were fights they boxed, they brawl, they showed heart and. Machismo. Boxers are responsible to entertain, just like any sports. Win in a fashion that will live in minds of boxing fans alive, instead no one remember that fight, because one wanted to play it safe. Foul system by the referee should change. lol boxing dead not even close

11y ago

OneHittaQuitta1

boxing is truly a dying sport joke sport. the public reception of the 'fight of the century' was very negative. all over the world people were trashing floyd's performance and joking about that snooze fest of a fight. can't believe ppv was $100 hahahahahahahahahaha. only reason why boxing is still around and still sells is because of nostalgia of the glory days. people want so badly for this sport to come back to life, but it can't. everyone needs to wake up and realize this. this 'farce of the century' was the final nail in the coffin. will the casuals/general public buy into another expensive ppv????? i doubt it. boxing will forever remain at the bottom of the barrel of the sports entertainment world. UFC >>> boxing ..people need to accept this now.if you like men laying on top of men then yea ufc is your best bet lol the ground game is the most boring part of mma and thats usually what the whole fight consists of 2 minutes of men rolling around on the floor trying mounting each other **** that

11y ago

Spoon23

boxing is truly a dying sport joke sport. the public reception of the 'fight of the century' was very negative. all over the world people were trashing floyd's performance and joking about that snooze fest of a fight. can't believe ppv was $100 hahahahahahahahahaha. only reason why boxing is still around and still sells is because of nostalgia of the glory days. people want so badly for this sport to come back to life, but it can't. everyone needs to wake up and realize this. this 'farce of the century' was the final nail in the coffin. will the casuals/general public buy into another expensive ppv????? i doubt it. boxing will forever remain at the bottom of the barrel of the sports entertainment world. UFC >>> boxing ..people need to accept this now. The fight yesterday, was the nail in the coffin. That was a super fight to stink all super fight. It takes 2 to tango. Pac chased for 12 rounds sad to say his dance partner wanted to be a matador and Pac as a bull. People wanted to see action and ferocity by both individuals, Ali vs Frazier were fights they boxed, they brawl, they showed heart and. Machismo. Boxers are responsible to entertain, just like any sports. Win in a fashion that will live in minds of boxing fans alive, instead no one remember that fight, because one wanted to play it safe. Foul system by the referee should change.

11y ago

Spoon23

Yep, watching some old fights will put into perspective how different boxing used to be. It's no wonder that boxing has declined so much since then. The only ones who can't see this are the boxing hipsters, who love being able to appreciate "boxing art" and thus don't actually want boxing to become more popular. Boxing needs to change. Less hugging, less winning by Olympic style points, but should depend on the quality of punches thrown. Jab should not be equal to power shots and to encourage putting the hurt in the hurt game than rather pitty patting punches the whole 12 rounds. Running and running to stink a fight A referee should give a deduction to force fighters to engage than to keep on making it a marathon fight. Floyd single handedly had shown the world how to stink a boxing match.

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"It's a scientific fact that Mayweather will never fight Pacquaio" Daggum

11y ago

Dean_Razorback

besides diego chaves, have you seen someone being dq for clinching? it sucks that the referees allow it so much