The Final Word on Wladmir Klitschko

How was Ali an ATG BEFORE he started holding? You can only become an ATG long after your career has ended. And prior to his holding, Ali had done exactly nothing at HW... N.O.T.H.I.N.G.! Not a single decent+relevant opponent. Arguably Liston, a cruiser cruncher, bum buster, slowest HW of all time and highly unco- whom Ali fought to a draw with on the cards before he received a gift RTD (pathetic) and then in the rematch, received a gift dive (again pathetic). Wladimir by contrast is a clean clincher with the possible exception of the Povetkin fight. And has only ever lost 2 legitimate fights out of 66, only 1 of them being to a less than desirable opponent to lose to and that guy being stronger and more experienced than anybody Ali ever faced anyway! :boxing: I would love to see Wladimir take on George Foreman in either his first run or after he came back to win the title at 45. All you would see was this on the canvas.... https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwPpH6xERqXRLoT6-7eO2Y2rM0shybr83RxIBebH_fyh9QvaeL Anyone one who says otherwise is a complete IDIOT!!! ALI HAD THE BEST CHIN EVER!!! PERIOD IT WAS LIKE GRANITE, TITANIUM SOME KIND OF ROCK FROM ANOTHER PLANET........HE HAD FOOT SPEED AND TREMENDOUS HAND SPEED. LIGHTING FAST JAB AND LEAD RIGHT HAND. HE COULD TEACH ROY JONES HOW TO THROW A LEFT HOOK!!!! THE MAN TOOK 4 YEARS OFF AND THOSE WERE HIS PRIME YEARS IMAGINE IF HE DIDNT LOSE HIS BOXING LICENSE?? HE IS ATG 1 AT HEAVY WEIGHT

Exactly, but I will say this even if his era was weak you cannot deny his dominance . I am not calling him "the greatest" but he does deserve his respect among those we already call "great". Most people agree he's is among the great heavyweights, even if they don't like him. What is great for him today is that he is presumably not slowing down and can enhance his legacy even further over the next few years, provided the motivation is intact and he remains injury free. I personally would like to see him unify all titles before he retires.

We need to let the man finish his career before this discussion is really valid. Exactly, but I will say this even if his era was weak you cannot deny his dominance . I am not calling him "the greatest" but he does deserve his respect among those we already call "great".

so its ok for some people to do it and not others? wlad pushes down on his opponents head and even gets them in headlocks all the time. he's clearly worse. also ali was an all time great before he started holding. wlad was a fringe guy who was ko'd 3 times and knocked down a dozen times. How was Ali an ATG BEFORE he started holding? You can only become an ATG long after your career has ended. And prior to his holding, Ali had done exactly nothing at HW... N.O.T.H.I.N.G.! Not a single decent+relevant opponent. Arguably Liston, a cruiser cruncher, bum buster, slowest HW of all time and highly unco- whom Ali fought to a draw with on the cards before he received a gift RTD (pathetic) and then in the rematch, received a gift dive (again pathetic). Wladimir by contrast is a clean clincher with the possible exception of the Povetkin fight. And has only ever lost 2 legitimate fights out of 66, only 1 of them being to a less than desirable opponent to lose to and that guy being stronger and more experienced than anybody Ali ever faced anyway! :boxing:

It was ok for both Ruiz and Wladimir. It was not ok for Ali (who'se entire second career depended on it) who applied that tactic with illegal ones like head down pushing, neck grabbing and out-of-the ring non-boxing related threats. so its ok for some people to do it and not others? wlad pushes down on his opponents head and even gets them in headlocks all the time. he's clearly worse. also ali was an all time great before he started holding. wlad was a fringe guy who was ko'd 3 times and knocked down a dozen times.

We need to let the man finish his career before this discussion is really valid.

The final word is this.... Wladimir Klitschko is now the greatest world heavyweight champion of all time. Beyond any doubt now. By any standard that has any validity whatsoever. That is a fact! :bottle:

I do find in interesting how some say it is ok for Wladimir to clinch but it wasn't ok for john ruiz to do it... It was ok for both Ruiz and Wladimir. It was not ok for Ali (who'se entire second career depended on it) who applied that tactic with illegal ones like head down pushing, neck grabbing and out-of-the ring non-boxing related threats.

No it isn't. His level of competition is no worse or no better then any other Champions from the past. Tell me, did you have a cigar in your mouth and a fedora hat resembling that of Bert Sugar. This is all superficial nonsense and has no bearing on someone's greatness. Correction. STILL IS VERY TALENTED and going. His career isn't over yet, and coming to some snobby conclusion about his legacy is rubbish. What free reign? No it isn't or Arturo Gatti and Mickey ward would be the ATG's. I see that you're the argument-for-perfection fallacy, a little term I coined. Basically, what you're saying is that instead of Wlad having a pretty damn good 63-3 record, he should be 66-0. No room for error right? The competition is so terrible, that he should be winning every round of every fight and be 66-0, right? Either that, or give us FOTY's where he squeaks out split decision wins. Except, Wlad is soo good that nobody can outbox him. Either he dominates you on route to a UD or a Ko, or you catch him with something and get him out of there - something which nobody has been able to do for almost 10 years now. Powerful post, comprehensive reply, even handed and fair treatment. I dare a nut bag to respond to this affront to nutbaggery!!

I do find in interesting how some say it is ok for Wladimir to clinch but it wasn't ok for john ruiz to do it... ruiz did it excessively in all his fights and it usually went to the cards. at least in wlads case he usually gets the kayo and lands some thudding shots in between. Its only been a couple fights where his clinching was as bad as ruiz

Pretty accurate assessment of Wladimir. As I said earlier, it's not his fault that he came along in the era that he did; but when judging a career, the competition has to be taken into consideration. Maybe Wlad wold have overcome if he had to dig down deep in a fight; but we'll never know cause after he got his scrap, he was never really challenged. He never had to get off the deck life,e Holmes and Louis, and Frazier did. He never had to come back in the face of an imminent stoppage due to a severe laceration like Marciano and Robinson and countless other greats. He never had to get off the stool in the tenth round, when he felt the closest thing to death in 120 degree heat and face down his nemesis in front of him in the rubber match of his life. Wlad was very talented and very gifted; but placing him atop the mountain of all the other great fighters who came before him and paid their dues where he had an essentially free reign is ludicrous. Boxing greatness is earned through blood, sweat, tears, and great moments against great opposition. The fact is when he was tested, he gassed out against Purity, imploded against Sanders, and had a panic attack after punch in himself out against Brewster. He did improve greatly after those losses; but when did he fake his final exam to prove what he had learned? Peter? Haye? Povetkin? For now, I'll place him in the Top 20. After further consideration, I might move him to 15 or maybe a tad higher; but I cannot fathom any universe where he has actually proven himself to be seated in anyone's Top Ten....no legitimate list anyway. as of today, wlad is no 7 on my atg hw list. Please post your list you have raised my curiosity. No it isn't. His level of competition is no worse or no better then any other Champions from the past. Tell me, did you have a cigar in your mouth and a fedora hat resembling that of Bert Sugar. This is all superficial nonsense and has no bearing on someone's greatness. Correction. STILL IS VERY TALENTED and going. His career isn't over yet, and coming to some snobby conclusion about his legacy is rubbish. What free reign? No it isn't or Arturo Gatti and Mickey ward would be the ATG's. I see that you're the argument-for-perfection fallacy, a little term I coined. Basically, what you're saying is that instead of Wlad having a pretty damn good 63-3 record, he should be 66-0. No room for error right? The competition is so terrible, that he should be winning every round of every fight and be 66-0, right? Either that, or give us FOTY's where he squeaks out split decision wins. Except, Wlad is soo good that nobody can outbox him. Either he dominates you on route to a UD or a Ko, or you catch him with something and get him out of there - something which nobody has been able to do for almost 10 years now. You both have good points about Grabmir Klittiko BUT 63-3 against cab drivers and unknowns he even lost to a PGA golfer once....I don't think Ali ever lost to a PGA golfer did he? From one extreme to the next. Wlad is a great Champion, he is an elite athlete and superb boxer. I just don't see him that high on the ATG list as the TS or Elroy jetson.

At this point: 1 Wladimir Klitschko AND A VERY DISTANT SECOND 2. Muhamad Ali 3. Joe Louis 4. Larry Holmes 5. Lennox Lewis and so on and so forth. do u gag when the tip of Wlads jeb end smashes against the back of ur throat?

does anyone actually watch wlad's fights or do you just go to boxrec? how do you just graze over the fact he clinched 187 times against povetkin? do you seriously consider that a "win" or even 49 times in 4 and a half rounds against pulev. do you ever factor in the cheating into the greatness equation and if he wasn't allowed to cheat what would happen...oh right we know because we saw him hit the canvas a dozen times before he started cheating. I do find in interesting how some say it is ok for Wladimir to clinch but it wasn't ok for john ruiz to do it...

The final word. Oh, thank you TS :lol1:

Relax man, it was just a over-the-top reply to a over-the-top thread topic. I see you've been going moderate on Wlad, defending him here and there. Good job. I don't know if it's a political-esque running for NSB moderator or sincere, but good job. Maybe I'll follow suit and start bashing Wlad a bit just to meet you in the middle. I've always done that, people just don't notice it. I must admit though, that I've taken a personal liking to Wlad lately. He's been a little more honest lately which I appreciate. And he's a top pro. I still think he can do better in the ring in terms of utilizing his obvious talents. The Pulev fight gave me an inclination he might do that.

klittard klitschko hater dunno, racist? schizophrenic

as of today, wlad is no 7 on my atg hw list.

:lol1: Joke list. What ranks guys like Patterson, shavers and baer over Wlad? Which great results? Which results compares to defending your titles 15+ times? Yes shavers was a strong puncher. Wlad still has better KO wins than Shavers has. And losing by KO to an unheralded swede amd fighting The 2nd tier fighters of your era is better? Lol klittard If you try. I mean if you really try hard. Maybe Wlad's schlong can go even deeper up inside you. klitschko hater Amateur boxing pre 75 was very very different from today. Almost like pro fighting, except the Soviet's had the same point scoring style that many of them have today too. Of course. But the argument put forward was that the American champions weren't truly champions because they couldn't fight the soviet fighters of that time. However, they did fight the best they had to offer in the amateurs which was very like pro fighting and they often found themselves stretched making the original point redundant. dunno, racist?

Watch a guy like Lomachenko fight, amateur or pro, and tell me he's fighting in straight lines using the 1,2. Its all about angles and punches from different angles. I think your thinking of guys like kessler or sturm who box in the classic euro standing straight up lots of jabs style, thats not soviet style boxing. Guys like usyk and Loma would fight in anything but straight lines. There's nothing general about Lomachenckho. I'm talking about 60 years of soviet amateur fighting, not the best product that's ever come out of amateur boxing. Come on guys, have a little more perspective. This discussion was centered around 60s & 70s soviet amateur boxers. And it's not a critique, just observation. Watch a guy like Klitschko when he first started out. Or Kovalev. Those guys have been blessed with unbelievable punching power, but the style is similar.

I didn't say they were hit and run, but their style was and to some extent is still based on point scoring. That's why you'll see straight lines, jabs and one-twos. Because that's the soviet system and it obviously is very very effective in the amateurs. They often stay amateur until their late 20s, so sometimes take that style into the pro ranks. Some have more success than others, but they generally make great amateur fighters. Guys like usyk and Loma would fight in anything but straight lines.