Prime Foreman vs Prime Frazier

Ok, first of all stylistically Tyson shares a lot of similarities with Frazier, just Frazier doesn't have the power of Tyson. Foreman is a bad matchup for Tyson though I think Tyson would fare better against Foreman than Frazier did. Second of all, anyone who thinks Wladimir Klitschko could beat George Foreman I have some beachfront property in Kansas to sell you. Wladimir is TAILOR MADE for Foreman. Wlad is flat footed and not mobile at all, not to mention everytime he lost he got stopped. Foreman stops Wlad within 5 rounds bro, and i'm being generous here. HORRIBLE matchup for Wlad. Some heavyweights who I think give Foreman lots of trouble would be guys like Chris Byrd or Usyk, guys who are mobile and can move and can make you fight at their pace and make you miss. Wlad was too stiff he is a sitting target for Foreman, he would get annihilated.

I have it.. Handspeed: Tyson (one of the fastest vs one of the slowest HW's all time) Boxing ability: Tyson (fantastic skills, Liston could barely throw a straight punch) KO Power- Tyson (Tyson has among the fastest KO speeds of a far heftier and far higher class of opposition than Liston. Liston never KOed a decent opponent. Size: Liston is rangier, Tyson is heftier Defense: Tyson Jab: Liston Endurance: Tyson (Tyson was an elite trained athlete, Liston was not) Adaptability: Unsure, I'll just give it to Liston Footspeed: Tyson Strength: Tyson (Come on man, LOOK at them!) Body attack: Tyson For me it's a white wash. For me there is no boxer prior to Tyson who stands any chance against him. Except for an extremely lucky Foreman! you're letting your bias get in the way. Liston is bigger as shown in the tale of the tape. still waiting for your evidence btw that tyson's measurements were bigger than Liston's. Tyson more endurance than Liston? Tyson only had 2 ko's after the 6th round. Liston went the distance several times. Tyson hasn't. Liston has the advantage in strength. His muscles were bigger. Something you have repeatedly denied. ou mention Tyson and immediately hundreds of little Tyson fanatics come rushing out waving their excuses around. "It's Don King's fault, it's Desiree Washington's fault, it's his wife's fault, it's Buster's fault, it's your fault, it's god's fault for taking cus" IT'S MIKE'S FAULT GET OVER IT. Liston was one of over 20 siblings and ran away from home when he was a kid and you're telling me Tyson had a tough upbringing?? What, someone killed one of his pigeons? Liston was hounded by police and under threats from the mob all his life. Tyson was 23 when he was soundly whipped by THE GREAT Buster Douglas. Who went on to beat...oh yeah, Douglas was a journeyman. Liston was an old man in comparison and could've gone unbeaten for a long time if he hadn't run into a prime Muhammad Ali. So for a start, when making a fantasy Tyson matchup, you must first ignore all the fanboys who's memory doesn't go back further than 1985. For instance, yourself. The matchup. Liston was one of history's very meanest fighters, and when somebody stood up to Tyson he didn't react well, Tyson would be quivering in his boots under the dark glare of Liston. You say Sonny had questionable stamina, but he went the distance several times, including dropping a decision when he broke his jaw early in a fight early in his career. Liston's a hard man to judge because he was at his prime before he took the title from Patterson. He was ducked for so long he had aged by the time he was champ. Now we know Liston had the strongest jab in heavyweight boxing, this along with his all around strength and toughness is enough for him to take Tyson into the mid to late rounds. We all know that's a key in beating Tyson as shown by Douglas.. Sonny Liston was everything Tyson wishes he was.Liston was tough and a true bad man without having to say so.Sonny could box and go the distance without much of a problem.Liston had a great chin and probably the best jab in heavyweight history.His power was equaled by very few and maybe only Foreman could match him there. Sonny Liston would not have a hard time with Tyson.Liston would have used the jab to pick off the smaller Tyson and set him up for big rights and uppercuts.Tyson's style was exactly like Floyd Patterson's(Cus trained him also) but with much more power.Sonny can take anything Tyson dishes out,and that would discourage Mike big time. Cleveland Williams unloaded on Sonny in the first round of their first fight,bloodying his nose and breaking it. Williams had big time power like Tyson and probably the same amount of speed.Williams was also bigger than Tyson.Liston simply shook off the blows and figuered Williams out,eventually knocking him out in 3 rounds.Sonny took Williams down in the 2 round in their rematch.Liston would pound the smaller Tyson around the ring and do what nobody ever did with a prime Tyson and that's dominate him.Sonny takes this in no more than 5 but probably ends this much earlier by 3rd round knockout. And if Cus was alive Tyson would still get beaten. and if he hadn't married Robin Givens Tyson would still get beaten. Sorry if you can't take it.

I guarantee you Williams, and Folley would be up there with the klitchskos. Old Foreman was heavier cause he was fatter. If you think old Foreman had more power than young Foreman, I simply don't know where to begin. As for "Again, I don't care what Tyson SAYS in a homage sense about either Liston or Foreman, I only believe in facts." You are lying when you say you believe in facts because if you did you'd see Liston has the advantage over Tyson. Fight Advantages: Hand Speed- Tyson, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power-Liston, Size-Liston, Defense-Tyson, Endurance-Liston, Adaptability-Liston, Foot Speed-Tyson, Strength-Liston, Jab-Liston, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston(84”) and Tyson(71”), Body Attack-Tyson: Total: 8-4-1 for Liston Yet Liston is a first round victim of Tyson, Sorry buddy it's the other way around. (Though not in the first round) It's a shame though because I would've wanted Tyson to win like you did but unlike you, I go on facts. Not personal bias. I have it.. Handspeed: Tyson (one of the fastest vs one of the slowest HW's all time) Boxing ability: Tyson (fantastic skills, Liston could barely throw a straight punch) KO Power- Tyson (Tyson has among the fastest KO speeds of a far heftier and far higher class of opposition than Liston. Liston never KOed a decent opponent. Size: Liston is rangier, Tyson is heftier Defense: Tyson Jab: Liston Endurance: Tyson (Tyson was an elite trained athlete, Liston was not) Adaptability: Unsure, I'll just give it to Liston Footspeed: Tyson Strength: Tyson (Come on man, LOOK at them!) Body attack: Tyson For me it's a white wash. For me there is no boxer prior to Tyson who stands any chance against him. Except for an extremely lucky Foreman!

Unbelievable, you compare Tyson's performance against these 2 to that which occurred between featherfist, chinny, half-blind Frazier who could barely box and Patterson, possibly the weakest champ in history. Incredible! I suppose the Scaff comparison was a bit much too so I deserved that one :lol1: So your saying that despite Foremans complete set of muscles being 2ce the size and the fact he pulled frigging cars and lifted weights in the 90's and beefed up by about 50lbs, that his muscles were not stronger? Not buying that! Williams, Folley etc would never be professional boxers today, perhaps in the CW division but as they were they'd be smashed there too. Again, I don't care what Tyson SAYS in a homage sense about either Liston or Foreman, I only believe in facts. I've also heard him declare he thinks he could have beaten any boxer and he may well could have! I can't see Liston being anything but a first round KO for Mike, for no other reason that he was too slow and unco to land any punches on Mike or properly defend himself. Frazier wasn't feather fisted or chinny. Oh yeah and by the way, I am still waiting for your proof Tyson's measurements were bigger than Liston's.

Unbelievable, you compare Tyson's performance against these 2 to that which occurred between featherfist, chinny, half-blind Frazier who could barely box and Patterson, possibly the weakest champ in history. Incredible! I suppose the Scaff comparison was a bit much too so I deserved that one :lol1: So your saying that despite Foremans complete set of muscles being 2ce the size and the fact he pulled frigging cars and lifted weights in the 90's and beefed up by about 50lbs, that his muscles were not stronger? Not buying that! Williams, Folley etc would never be professional boxers today, perhaps in the CW division but as they were they'd be smashed there too. Again, I don't care what Tyson SAYS in a homage sense about either Liston or Foreman, I only believe in facts. I've also heard him declare he thinks he could have beaten any boxer and he may well could have! I can't see Liston being anything but a first round KO for Mike, for no other reason that he was too slow and unco to land any punches on Mike or properly defend himself. I guarantee you Williams, and Folley would be up there with the klitchskos. Old Foreman was heavier cause he was fatter. If you think old Foreman had more power than young Foreman, I simply don't know where to begin. As for "Again, I don't care what Tyson SAYS in a homage sense about either Liston or Foreman, I only believe in facts." You are lying when you say you believe in facts because if you did you'd see Liston has the advantage over Tyson. Fight Advantages: Hand Speed- Tyson, Boxing Ability- Liston, KO Power-Liston, Size-Liston, Defense-Tyson, Endurance-Liston, Adaptability-Liston, Foot Speed-Tyson, Strength-Liston, Jab-Liston, Cuts-No Advantage, Reach-Liston(84”) and Tyson(71”), Body Attack-Tyson: Total: 8-4-1 for Liston Yet Liston is a first round victim of Tyson, Sorry buddy it's the other way around. (Though not in the first round) It's a shame though because I would've wanted Tyson to win like you did but unlike you, I go on facts. Not personal bias.

Please list Tyson's measurements compared to Liston's. You'll find Liston's measurements were higher. If you've actually watched any of Tyson's interviews (which I doubt you have) Tyson even said the one man he'd be afraid of facing would be Liston. Foreman's muscles were not stronger with age. Williams, Folley, and alot of others would be considered good oppenents today. More biased garbage. Predictably from you. If you wanna see Tyson against Foreman and Liston see Foreman-Frazier 1 and Liston-Patterson 1 Unbelievable, you compare Tyson's performance against these 2 to that which occurred between featherfist, chinny, half-blind Frazier who could barely box and Patterson, possibly the weakest champ in history. Incredible! I suppose the Scaff comparison was a bit much too so I deserved that one :lol1: So your saying that despite Foremans complete set of muscles being 2ce the size and the fact he pulled frigging cars and lifted weights in the 90's and beefed up by about 50lbs, that his muscles were not stronger? Not buying that! Williams, Folley etc would never be professional boxers today, perhaps in the CW division but as they were they'd be smashed there too. Again, I don't care what Tyson SAYS in a homage sense about either Liston or Foreman, I only believe in facts. I've also heard him declare he thinks he could have beaten any boxer and he may well could have! I can't see Liston being anything but a first round KO for Mike, for no other reason that he was too slow and unco to land any punches on Mike or properly defend himself.

Dude, even without checking I KNOW that Tyson's measurements were larger than Liston's. You can't be more ripped and shorter and of heftier weight combined without having larger muscles in general. And it's clear to see for everybody. Young Foreman had big arms, but other than that he was relatively SKINNY you idiot! He was much taller than Mike is all! Foreman WAS a MUCH bigger boxer than Mike over whole career, but that's because in the 90's he was fattened up AND bodybuilt. There are essentially 2 versions of Foreman... The tall, heavy for the day but small nowadays Foreman of the 70's who was faster, more aggressive, but with a somewhat mediocre chin and who could barely even box.. And the vastly experienced, measured and smarter boxer of the 90's who was even stronger and immensely heftier and with an iron chin, but who'se speed and workrate were obviously weathered with age. If you could combine the features of both Foreman's together, then sure, Tyson would be beat. Unfortunately such a Foreman never actually existed. Only in the minds of OTNB's. As for who had a tougher childhood? I would say Tyson had a pretty rough childhood personally. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with boxing performance. If you want to know what would happen to Liston should he have fought Tyson? Watch Tyson vs Scaff! Liston never once won any fight against what we would today regard as a decent opponent. His opponents consisted, without exception of cruisers and bums and guys coming off of loss streaks and featherfists and always a combination of these qualities too! The only time he met what today would consider a good quality cruiser sized HW... He threw in the towel and took a dive! He failed to KO and then took a dive against chinny little featherfist Clay :lol1: Get out of here with your moronic comparisons! What's next? Jockeys are bigger and stronger than WWE Wrestlers? :lol1: Please list Tyson's measurements compared to Liston's. You'll find Liston's measurements were higher. If you've actually watched any of Tyson's interviews (which I doubt you have) Tyson even said the one man he'd be afraid of facing would be Liston. Foreman's muscles were not stronger with age. Williams, Folley, and alot of others would be considered good oppenents today. More biased garbage. Predictably from you. If you wanna see Tyson against Foreman and Liston see Foreman-Frazier 1 and Liston-Patterson 1

Sonny Liston was much bigger than Tyson. He had a bigger chest reach bicep forearm and wrist not to mention he was much tougher than Tyson and had a much tougher childhood. Liston would've kicked Mike's ass. Weight doesn't mean you're bigger than someone, tyson weighed 221 for berbick, foreman weighed 217 for Frazier. Was Tyson bigger than Foreman no? So until then the only person who's been exposed is you. Dude, even without checking I KNOW that Tyson's measurements were larger than Liston's. You can't be more ripped and shorter and of heftier weight combined without having larger muscles in general. And it's clear to see for everybody. Young Foreman had big arms, but other than that he was relatively SKINNY you idiot! He was much taller than Mike is all! Foreman WAS a MUCH bigger boxer than Mike over whole career, but that's because in the 90's he was fattened up AND bodybuilt. There are essentially 2 versions of Foreman... The tall, heavy for the day but small nowadays Foreman of the 70's who was faster, more aggressive, but with a somewhat mediocre chin and who could barely even box.. And the vastly experienced, measured and smarter boxer of the 90's who was even stronger and immensely heftier and with an iron chin, but who'se speed and workrate were obviously weathered with age. If you could combine the features of both Foreman's together, then sure, Tyson would be beat. Unfortunately such a Foreman never actually existed. Only in the minds of OTNB's. As for who had a tougher childhood? I would say Tyson had a pretty rough childhood personally. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with boxing performance. If you want to know what would happen to Liston should he have fought Tyson? Watch Tyson vs Scaff! Liston never once won any fight against what we would today regard as a decent opponent. His opponents consisted, without exception of cruisers and bums and guys coming off of loss streaks and featherfists and always a combination of these qualities too! The only time he met what today would consider a good quality cruiser sized HW... He threw in the towel and took a dive! He failed to KO and then took a dive against chinny little featherfist Clay :lol1: Get out of here with your moronic comparisons! What's next? Jockeys are bigger and stronger than WWE Wrestlers? :lol1:

So your saying THIS Sonny Liston... http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content/flagallery/sonny-liston/sonny-liston-36.jpg Is bigger and more powerful both, than THIS Mike Tyson... http://boxingjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tyson-boxing-dvds.jpg Well that's a very heroic suggestion :lol1: But not especially true. For a starters, I have never once heard anybody claim that Liston was either larger or more powerful than Mike Tyson except from that special group of boxing fans that I like to call the "OTNB" community. And even then from only a select few of the more shameless ones! Notice in the pics that although Sonny and Mike share common weights at times, Tyson was ALWAYS far more cut than Liston ever was at any point of their careers. Liston is fluidy compared with Tyson, who was fined down to an equivalent weight. But let's forget the quality of weight (which obviously favours Tyson) and analyse the competitive sizes of both fighters.. Turns out that Liston, started his career as a 198lb cruiser (about the size of a 15! year old Tyson), weighed an average of 211lbs (what about cruisers weigh today on fight night) and weighed 215 for the majority of the rest of his fights. Conversely, Tyson was always around 215-220 and far stockier than Liston because he was ripped, and cause he was an inch or so shorter. Tyson from about 1990-2000s gained significant weight and came in the 230s even on occasion! Sonny Liston KO highlight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIx9h7yhaw Mike Tyson KO highlight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z9mbQk58B0 As you can see from the videos, Liston is slow as a wet wig, highly uncoordinated and does not have the same mechanics as Tyson. As for Tyson, the clips speak for themselves! You will also find that Tyson KOed, the much heavier opponents (by about 20lbs on average) and the better quality opponents (Liston fought more bums than any other champion of all time). You know what I would say to both your assertions? Myth exposed! Myth exposed! ;) Sonny Liston was much bigger than Tyson. He had a bigger chest reach bicep forearm and wrist not to mention he was much tougher than Tyson and had a much tougher childhood. Liston would've kicked Mike's ass. Weight doesn't mean you're bigger than someone, tyson weighed 221 for berbick, foreman weighed 217 for Frazier. Was Tyson bigger than Foreman no? So until then the only person who's been exposed is you.

No you never claimed size is everything but you implied it. Tyson much wasn't bigger than Liston. Liston was bigger and stronger than Tyson. as for"It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!" so 99 percent of boxing experts are high? So your saying THIS Sonny Liston... http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content/flagallery/sonny-liston/sonny-liston-36.jpg Is bigger and more powerful both, than THIS Mike Tyson... http://boxingjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tyson-boxing-dvds.jpg Well that's a very heroic suggestion :lol1: But not especially true. For a starters, I have never once heard anybody claim that Liston was either larger or more powerful than Mike Tyson except from that special group of boxing fans that I like to call the "OTNB" community. And even then from only a select few of the more shameless ones! Notice in the pics that although Sonny and Mike share common weights at times, Tyson was ALWAYS far more cut than Liston ever was at any point of their careers. Liston is fluidy compared with Tyson, who was fined down to an equivalent weight. But let's forget the quality of weight (which obviously favours Tyson) and analyse the competitive sizes of both fighters.. Turns out that Liston, started his career as a 198lb cruiser (about the size of a 15! year old Tyson), weighed an average of 211lbs (what about cruisers weigh today on fight night) and weighed 215 for the majority of the rest of his fights. Conversely, Tyson was always around 215-220 and far stockier than Liston because he was ripped, and cause he was an inch or so shorter. Tyson from about 1990-2000s gained significant weight and came in the 230s even on occasion! Sonny Liston KO highlight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIx9h7yhaw Mike Tyson KO highlight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z9mbQk58B0 As you can see from the videos, Liston is slow as a wet wig, highly uncoordinated and does not have the same mechanics as Tyson. As for Tyson, the clips speak for themselves! You will also find that Tyson KOed, the much heavier opponents (by about 20lbs on average) and the better quality opponents (Liston fought more bums than any other champion of all time). You know what I would say to both your assertions? Myth exposed! Myth exposed! ;)

Just because your small doesn't mean you can't hit hard. Sure of course. I've never once claimed that size is everything. But... The heavier you are, without even checking punch qualities, the chances are the harder you hit, and.. The heavier you are, with regards to punch qualities, all else being equal, the harder you hit, and... Mike Tyson was much bigger than Louis, Liston, Marciano, Frazier, Shaver and (insert nostalgic bum here lol), he had an immensely stronger core and everything else than them AND had far superior punch qualities, therefore hit SAVAGELY harder., and... You can see on video that these guys didn't hit a quarter as dangerously as Tyson, even a simple picture would convince most of it's impossibility, and... Statistically, we can see clearly from tables if you'll like me to produce them, that Tyson's KO performance is far higher than these guys, particularly with relevance to how well he holds his KO power too the heftier+better his opponents got. It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high! No you never claimed size is everything but you implied it. Tyson much wasn't bigger than Liston. Liston was bigger and stronger than Tyson. as for"It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!" so 99 percent of boxing experts are high?

foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement? that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional Show me a single instance in the Holyfield fight where the vastly 70+ fight experienced, 260+ lb Foreman does anything remarkable apart from being big, strong and patient against Holyfield?

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc: If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today? Additionally to studs relevant comment here, There is an obesity epidemic in America and Australia, correct. There is also a health and fitness revolution too, where there are buffs everywhere now. In fact this trend in Australia is reversing! Hardly anybody smokes anymore. So it isn't clear cut. People are more comfortable now, producing some lazy fatties, but ppl are also more image conscious now too producing more athleties too. Of course, none of this is representative of pro athletes. Remember, there were fat boxers then and now. But there were never boxers then as fit as there are now!

just because you don't way alot doesn't mean you don't hit hard. look at shavers. "If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!" If you've actually watched the fight (which I doubt you have) you would see Frazier did stop Chuvalo. Liston did hit harder than Tyson, Ask Johnny Tocco who managed them both he will tell you the same thing, you said Marciano was smaller so he didn't hit harder than Liston, Tyson's also smaller than Liston so by your logic You have to say Liston ht harder than Tyson. If you are unwilling to accept this, you're a hypocrite. Just because your small doesn't mean you can't hit hard. Sure of course. I've never once claimed that size is everything. But... The heavier you are, without even checking punch qualities, the chances are the harder you hit, and.. The heavier you are, with regards to punch qualities, all else being equal, the harder you hit, and... Mike Tyson was much bigger than Louis, Liston, Marciano, Frazier, Shaver and (insert nostalgic bum here lol), he had an immensely stronger core and everything else than them AND had far superior punch qualities, therefore hit SAVAGELY harder., and... You can see on video that these guys didn't hit a quarter as dangerously as Tyson, even a simple picture would convince most of it's impossibility, and... Statistically, we can see clearly from tables if you'll like me to produce them, that Tyson's KO performance is far higher than these guys, particularly with relevance to how well he holds his KO power too the heftier+better his opponents got. It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc: If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today? Well that's pretty easy to answer. The average person isn't on the same scientific nutrition regimen as Wlad and co (much less their exercise regimen), so they're not taking advantage of those advances. It's like asking why most guys have become such wusses when we've made great advances in special forces combat tactics... Average people are not representative sample groups for this correlation.

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc: If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today? Thank you.

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc: If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today?

foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement? that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional Exactly and Tyson couldn't last with a past prime Holyfield.

I just noticed your thread topic, and then I noticed you devoted many lines of text to it, but admittedly didn't read anymore than a few words... Because it doesn't matter. Foreman was literally JUST a puncher. And I mean we are talking about, in 80 odd champions to date, one of the least skilled at boxing of all the hw champs (considering 70's Foreman, 90's was obviously more skilled. Even still, no matter what game plan he brang and no matter how hard he tried, Frazier could never survive Foreman. I mean to give Frazier credit, he would have been champion in previous eras. Frazier vs Louis would have been fair to question and I'd be leaning toward giving it to Frazier. But the times and the division were changing. Frazier was not TODAY what we would consider a good fighter. Truth is, he would never even be a professional boxer as we would describe one today. Foreman would simply batter any version of Frazier into submission, under any circumstances! foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement? that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional

- When you compare the punching power of George Foreman to Mike Tyson's, fine, you are in common ground there. Both hit really bloody hard. But you are MORONIC to compare the power of 185lb Marciano, or even Sonny Liston to Mike's! Cooney? I seriously doubt that too, despite his size! Again! Foreman might have had a "stronger" punch than Mike in the sense that they screwed with balance more (a typical thing for push punchers), but they never had the snap and KO power of Mikes. - Should I be THAT impressed with Foreman knocking Frazier off his feet? I already asserted that Foreman's type of power was of the sort to screw with balance. The fact I see is that Frazier got up 6! times and finished on his feet. I would expect ANY of the huge punchers of the 90's, including Tyson to send Frazier crashing to the deck. The difference being, Mike and Sanders would send him crashing there permanently! - Agreed, Foreman had enormous arm punching power. Mike threw his punches from the floor. If your arguing Foreman might have been able to throw a harder punch if he threw them properly, that's something else. Fact is, he didn't! - You never seen anybody knock someone off their feet? Did you sleep through the 80's as well as the 90's and 00's? - Mike Tyson's power was crushing compared with Louis's, Dempsey's and Frazier's. LOOK at them! Then look at Mike! - If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him! - Mike Tyson's left hook was among the best there's ever been in boxing, TRASHING any thrown by Frazier. I could point to many, but review Tyson vs Gross. When did Frazier EVER throw a left hook like that! I just uploaded Frazier's highlight reel on another thread, not good! ;) And that was in comparison to Alex bloody Leapai! - Again, you'll have to show me an uppercut finish of Louis's but I already know Mikes was extraordinarily better. And anybody with a set of fogless eyes can see that. So I think we have a consensus agreement that Frazier never beats Foreman. I disagree but at the end of the day It's my opinion