How would Klitschko's career have looked without the use of illegal tactics?

Sorry maybe I have a old school mentality and a lot of these young NEW Boxing Fans are 99% B1TCH so they want Refs and Judges to stop certain things from happening during the fight so that their favorite fighter can look good. Just like if they was to get into a fight their Mom would probably come running out to save them :lol1: Despite losing, Derek Chisora had the BEST strategy vs Vitali style when dealing with his Clinching and leaning on him. Chisora kept working inside and was punishing Vitali to the body and no question it effected Vitali during that fight especially down the stretch. Clinching, Holding and stopping the action until the Ref Breaks been apart of boxing for a LONG TIME, it is video back in Jack Johnson days in which it was a lot of Grappling, Holding and Clinching going on inside so that has been part of boxing since the beginning and it will NEVER CHANGE. The real problem is that most don't know how to do with it today because most fighters today CAN'T fight inside! So I don't fault, dislike or blame: Wlad, Vitali, Ward, B-Hop, Miguel Vazquez or WHO EVER uses that strategy, if their opponent is truly good enough they will figure out a way to deal with that style and come up with a solution to beat it...IF THEY'RE TRULY THAT GOOD! DeGale was able to not only avoid Gonzalez Clinches, he also beat him at his own game inside. Anthony Dirrell in the rematch, he did not complain as much in the rematch vs Bika, he came more prepared the second time for Bika Tactics. Same with Kell Brooks, he beat Porter at his own game inside and yes he clinched him a lot but that is exactly the way Porter fights, when he was Hugging the hell out of Alexander that fight, Alexander did not cry about it. So Bottom Line, and yes in defense of Klitschko's, it is not their fault, it is their opponents fault for not coming prepared for their styles!

When Klitschko does these things, it's cheating but when B-Hop, Floyd or any random slick black boxer does it, it's boxing genius. very true and wlad usually gets the big kayo unlike the others mentioned

When Klitschko does these things, it's cheating but when B-Hop, Floyd or any random slick black boxer does it, it's boxing genius. Yes, I bet a demographic of all the anti-Klitschko posters on the site would reveal a "slight" racial motivation for the hate ;)

When Klitschko does these things, it's cheating but when B-Hop, Floyd or any random slick black boxer does it, it's boxing genius.

lol and in which world did the bodybuilders make good boxers? :lol1: If Peter wasn't so damn built and later fat, he might have been able to fight for more than 3 rounds. Well, that photo is of him weighing in exactly 215 vs Liston. So you're wrong again. As usual. Samuel Peter was not a bodybuilder. He used strength training in his preparation, but he was a world champion HW BOXER! It's a given that the large muscles built via weights can slow you down and make stamina challenging. It also confers many other benefits. Peter was able to bull his way through opposition like not many others ever could and swat them down. Evander Holyfield said it the best "Those that claim that strength and power are irrelevant are those that do not have to fight against it!" Muhammad Ali weighed 210lbs and 206lbs respectively in Liston 1 and 2, Liston being the one who weighed around 215lbs each time. So no I am not THAT wrong at all. To be honest, you could probably find a 215lb image of Ali that looks relatively fit, although not 6-packed. Any version approaching the size of a modern HW though would be "chubby". Please note also that WK not once fought anybody as small as Clay in Liston 2 and at 210lbs the Clay from Liston 1 was equal to WK's smallest opponent (Chambers). Also Liston himself would be bottom 3 Wlad's smallest opponent. Times change my friend!

Well, that photo is of him weighing in exactly 215 vs Liston. Clay weighed in at 210 lb (95 kg) while Liston was several pounds over his prime fighting weight at 218 lb (99 kg). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston#The_weigh-in No need to lie to kick it. When Ali got much heavier than 210, he looked more like this http://jasonferruggia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Muhammad-Ali-1970.jpg

:lol1: Damn that was easier than I'd thought!! Must have been a very early one. Got me good that time :lol1: I'll have to atleast go one better then... http://beatsboxingmayhem.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/peter.jpg Now THAT'S what a HW looks like! ;) lol and in which world did the bodybuilders make good boxers? :lol1: If Peter wasn't so damn built and later fat, he might have been able to fight for more than 3 rounds. I guess my main point is, is that Peter looked like this when he was in the range of 230lbs. Muhammad Ali looked like that when he was 210 or below. When Ali weighed 215+, what today we would CALL a HW, he didn't look anything like that! Of course Peter didn't remain so trim either. Well, that photo is of him weighing in exactly 215 vs Liston. So you're wrong again. As usual.

I guess my main point is, is that Peter looked like this when he was in the range of 230lbs. Muhammad Ali looked like that when he was 210 or below. When Ali weighed 215+, what today we would CALL a HW, he didn't look anything like that! Of course Peter didn't remain so trim either.

This is literally the first photo google shows me of "muhammad ali" https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/424184673938329600/FArA372x_400x400.jpeg :lol1: Damn that was easier than I'd thought!! Must have been a very early one. Got me good that time :lol1: I'll have to atleast go one better then... http://beatsboxingmayhem.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/peter.jpg Now THAT'S what a HW looks like! ;)

Ali was chubby for half his career and Frazier was only ever in shape occasionally. Peter was of course fat at some point but he was once ripped to the point where his 6 pack was ripping above his shortline. You will not find too many pics of Ali like that. This is literally the first photo google shows me of "muhammad ali" https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/424184673938329600/FArA372x_400x400.jpeg

Which previous champ was fat? Other than Sam Peter. Ali was chubby for half his career and Frazier was only ever in shape occasionally. Peter was of course fat at some point but he was once ripped to the point where his 6 pack was ripping above his shortline. You will not find too many pics of Ali like that.

Uh uh... I gave a pretty good crack at the KFC one too I thought! Today's champs are lean and 6 packed, as are many of their contenders and SOME of them are fat Previous times Champions themselves were even fat! In fact, there is nothing wrong with being chubby at HW to be honest. As proven by success throughout history of them. Because HW boxing is a sport where being chubby is not detrimental to performance per se. Which previous champ was fat? Other than Sam Peter.

Pianeta beat 2 former champs Botha and McCall and one journeyman Dominiguez with a record of 13-2, much better than the journeymen previous champs opponents beat to core a title shot. Mormeck was a 6 time CW champs which in previous eras would have been considered 6 world HW titles. No pre80's champ ever fought someone with such credence. Rahman was 5 fights previously the HW champion and hadn't lost since. Leapai knocked out Boytsov, unbeaten in over 30 fights and ranked in the top 10. Thompson KOed 26-12 tune up bum Couser after KOing 30-2 solid opponent Krasniqi. Previous to this he also beat Guinn (26-3) and Ibragimov (28-1), what today we call journeymen but in previous eras, we would call such records excellent in their own right. No previous boxer ever fought an opponent with such a good build up as Tony Thompson did for WK. (Apart from tune up Couser). Additionally Thompson had a nearly unbeaten record. The fight Wladimir vs Peter 2 was heavily desired by fans and media because of the trouble Peter caused Wladimir in the first encounter. Wladimir was nice enough to grant the hard hitting Peter a rematch, despite apparent risk to his so-called "glass chin" lol. Wach beat gigantic 49-4 Tye Fields. 49-4 I repeat!!!!! And was completely unbeaten at time of bout with Klitschko, who also for the first time fought somebody who both outweighed AND outranged him. All in all the fights you specifically indicated reveal that getting the title shot vs Klitschko was not all that easy after all, they either had to have already fought Wladmir, been the HW champ or slugged their way through tough opponents to get there. Lol what lies you spew my son. Botha a champion?? Of what? :lol1: McCall was 47 years old. How can you even mention his name? Mormeck was 2 time CW champion, and that's CW champion. He'd been knocked out by the guy Wlad just beat 5 years prior and hadn't fought in something like 2 years only once at heavyweight if I remember correctly. Elise Leapai decisioned Boytsov son, and it was boring. And Boytsov was fukin useless. Nobody desired a Sam Peter II fight. He had already been smashed up by Wlad and Vitali before. It was a farce. Wach beat a gigantic bum who Monte Barrett KO'd in 1 round :lol1: How can you call that a win? hahahaha

You only really tried to debunk the point about amateurs, but basically agreed with everything else. *Fighters fighting less *Fighters not fighting each other *Fighters fighting for the last vacant seat at KFC Chicken Uh uh... I gave a pretty good crack at the KFC one too I thought! Today's champs are lean and 6 packed, as are many of their contenders and SOME of them are fat Previous times Champions themselves were even fat! In fact, there is nothing wrong with being chubby at HW to be honest. As proven by success throughout history of them. Because HW boxing is a sport where being chubby is not detrimental to performance per se.

Who did Pianeta and Mormeck beat to get a shot? Rahman? Peter in the second Wlad fight? Tony Thompson? Leapai? What about Wach? The latest batch of contenders weren't even contenders, they were just cherry picked by Wlad. Pianeta beat 2 former champs Botha and McCall and one journeyman Dominiguez with a record of 13-2, much better than the journeymen previous champs opponents beat to core a title shot. Mormeck was a 6 time CW champs which in previous eras would have been considered 6 world HW titles. No pre80's champ ever fought someone with such credence. Rahman was 5 fights previously the HW champion and hadn't lost since. Leapai knocked out Boytsov, unbeaten in over 30 fights and ranked in the top 10. Thompson KOed 26-12 tune up bum Couser after KOing 30-2 solid opponent Krasniqi. Previous to this he also beat Guinn (26-3) and Ibragimov (28-1), what today we call journeymen but in previous eras, we would call such records excellent in their own right. No previous boxer ever fought an opponent with such a good build up as Tony Thompson did for WK. (Apart from tune up Couser). Additionally Thompson had a nearly unbeaten record. The fight Wladimir vs Peter 2 was heavily desired by fans and media because of the trouble Peter caused Wladimir in the first encounter. Wladimir was nice enough to grant the hard hitting Peter a rematch, despite apparent risk to his so-called "glass chin" lol. Wach beat gigantic 49-4 Tye Fields. 49-4 I repeat!!!!! And was completely unbeaten at time of bout with Klitschko, who also for the first time fought somebody who both outweighed AND outranged him. All in all the fights you specifically indicated reveal that getting the title shot vs Klitschko was not all that easy after all, they either had to have already fought Wladmir, been the HW champ or slugged their way through tough opponents to get there. Let's now check a few title challengers of the "greatest". 34-11 bum George Chuvalo, got his title shot coming off a LOSS to a 191 lb Cruiser, 11-2 green. In fact, lost 2 of his previous 3 fights before facing Ali! London, 35-13 bum Mildenberger, whom Ali claims "hit harder than Frazier :lol1:" earned his shot by beating 182lbs LHW, 13-9 bum Ivan Predeg! Cleveland Williams had to fight a wild gunman to get his title shot :lol1: Zora Folley, one of the weakest punchers in history had to beat 3 consecutive bums to get his chance (Joyner 22-11, Davis 28-10, Clark 8-2) The legendary Quarry did it by beating 14-20 Harris. You read that correct yes? Bonavena, 3 bums Piries15-5 Woody 14-6 Ramos 23-11 Chuvalo rematch with the bum, earned by beating 2 other bums Christopher 8-22, 21-12. I am bored of fact checking now. I could go on and on. I think the point should be clear by now. Today's champs have to fight contenders who earned their title shots by defeating a much better class of opposition than anything from the distant past. In fact it can be summed up this way, you can ONLY get a title shot today if you are very good, beating someone pretty good in your last run of fights, or have been great etc. In the past you could get a title shot by beating nothing but bums, you could get a title shot even if you WERE an absolute bum!

Except all of those things were debunked and only one of those points was at all worthy of further investigation. You only really tried to debunk the point about amateurs, but basically agreed with everything else. *Fighters fighting less *Fighters not fighting each other *Fighters fighting for the last vacant seat at KFC Chicken

So Maskaev, McCline and Toney aren't comparable to Liakovich? Peter and Briggs are comparable. Your pumping up Briggs and downgrading Peter. Objectively speaking they were both good opponents for Wladimir and Lennox respectively. Champion boxers but not the stuff of dominance and neither were technically brilliant. Both relied on being big and strong. As for your comment previously regarding Sanders and Bruno, Bruno was more athletic and stronger than Sanders, I agree. But Sanders was more skilled, powerful and much faster, more dangerous and more aggressive than Bruno ever was. That is a fact! Bruno was never anything but a joke. Promoted only at the time because England lacked a HW boxing influence. Enter Lennox Lewis. See ya later Bruno! Yeah, they are comparable. As in pretty equal actually. In fact, Toney beat a "prime" Peter. So did other average heavies like Eddie Chambers. I never pumped up Briggs - The guy adds absolutely nothing to Lennox's resume. If he wasn't on it, it would neither be worse or better off. He's just meh really. Peter on the other hand is sadly one of the better wins on Wlad's resume. Bruno was bigger, stronger and hit much harder than Sanders. Sanders might have been quicker and that was it.

It's a legit question though. Who did Peter actually beat? Dare I say Liakhovic would be amongst the best wins on Peter's resume? I think I would. So Maskaev, McCline and Toney aren't comparable to Liakovich? Peter and Briggs are comparable. Your pumping up Briggs and downgrading Peter. Objectively speaking they were both good opponents for Wladimir and Lennox respectively. Champion boxers but not the stuff of dominance and neither were technically brilliant. Both relied on being big and strong. As for your comment previously regarding Sanders and Bruno, Bruno was more athletic and stronger than Sanders, I agree. But Sanders was more skilled, powerful and much faster, more dangerous and more aggressive than Bruno ever was. That is a fact! Bruno was never anything but a joke. Promoted only at the time because England lacked a HW boxing influence. Enter Lennox Lewis. See ya later Bruno!

Haye is the one guy that I would call an impressive win for Wladimir, and we really dont know if Haye is on Frank Bruno's level to be honest. We do know. We know he isn't. Frank Bruno gave Lennox Lewis a good fight. Chisora gave Haye a similar type of fight. Those are the levels.

yeah but wlad redeemed himself by "holding" his own against povetkin No pun intended/