The Muhammad Ali who beat Cleveland Williams...

Lets say they raise it to 230 then. A D we're not talking 100-200 years ahead :lol1: Ali fought 35-45 years ago. Anyways, according to your book of logic, the governing bodies have the power to instantly make Wlad/Lennox/Vitali resume crap by simply raising the CW limit to 230 or making a new super heavy division. That just doesn't make sense. Just because there's that bar is raised doesn't make Byrd any more or less of a fighter for instance. But according to you he would instantly be a cruiser bum. That is absolutely not what I am saying at all. Neither Ali or Byrd or Wladimir would ever have a "bum resume" no matter what they raised the limit too because regardless of weight, they all won most of their fights! What it would do however, is cause me to focus on what portion of that boxer, whether Ali, Byrd or Wlad's or whoever's, actually applies to the new class. And what kind of performance these boxers actually HAD in this new class. It turns out that Ali's career, and Byrds, were a combination of lighter weight range fights (in Ali's case CW) and HW. For Ali, in fact, HALF of his fights were below the CW limit. Therefore were they to raise the limit to 230, I would not turn to Wladimir's fights against opponents like Byrd and Chambers etc where he beat opponents much smaller when he was above the limit. I would include his 2 losses though where he was above the limit and beaten by 2 guys (Brewster and Sanders) that were below it for obvious reasons and fairness. So no the governing bodies do not make a resume crap overall. But they do affect what class their resume represents should they change the definition of what it means to be a heavyweight. Ali fought 32 times against what today we call HW opponents. He was beaten 4 times. He was no bum. But he fought a very poorly skilled class of opponents by comparison to what came later and it's ridiculous to assume a good showing against an opponent like Williams is a proof of his greatness. Williams, as he was, would never be a professional boxer today. There is not a boxer in the top 50 at HW with which he could mount a successful fight against. He is far smaller than almost any HW today, side by side it would be so striking it'd be laughable. Sure there are a few guys of comparable size. Adamek and Haye are only a bit bigger. Cunningham, Byrd and Chambers are about the same size. But compare these guys to Williams, they are all highly slick and super fast. Williams by contrast is a stationary puncher. I am sorry but if you are going to rock up to modern HW with that kind of style at 212 lbs you'd better bring a coffin.

Well they would not raise it to 235 would they because people are not big enough to warrant that yet are they. But let's say they eventually do something much more likely. Raise the cruiser and heavy limits so that the HW limit is 215. Several modern boxers would still be in good stead and in particular 4 of the greatest boxers, Vitali K, Wladimir K, Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson, it would be clear that they were the TRUE hard hitters of history being able to whack out the highest quality opposition of a truly "Heavyweight" nature. Imaging that people become gigantic enough 100-200 years in the future to warrant a 235lb class of boxer. At that time, if I was still alive, I WOULD DEFINITELY NOT try to promote W.Klitschko's KO powers or capabilities onto the new class with the same efficacy because that would be incredibly naïve and stupid. The same naïve and stupid that you are all being today! Tua KO Moorer > Ali KO Williams Lets say they raise it to 230 then. A D we're not talking 100-200 years ahead :lol1: Ali fought 35-45 years ago. Anyways, according to your book of logic, the governing bodies have the power to instantly make Wlad/Lennox/Vitali resume crap by simply raising the CW limit to 230 or making a new super heavy division. That just doesn't make sense. Just because there's that bar is raised doesn't make Byrd any more or less of a fighter for instance. But according to you he would instantly be a cruiser bum.

I wonder what you'll say when they create a super heavy division at 235 and above. Then Wlad's resume will suddenly stink to high heaven. That's the kind of logic you use. Well they would not raise it to 235 would they because people are not big enough to warrant that yet are they. But let's say they eventually do something much more likely. Raise the cruiser and heavy limits so that the HW limit is 215. Several modern boxers would still be in good stead and in particular 4 of the greatest boxers, Vitali K, Wladimir K, Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson, it would be clear that they were the TRUE hard hitters of history being able to whack out the highest quality opposition of a truly "Heavyweight" nature. Imaging that people become gigantic enough 100-200 years in the future to warrant a 235lb class of boxer. At that time, if I was still alive, I WOULD DEFINITELY NOT try to promote W.Klitschko's KO powers or capabilities onto the new class with the same efficacy because that would be incredibly naïve and stupid. The same naïve and stupid that you are all being today! Tua KO Moorer > Ali KO Williams

If we're honest, he wasn't legit threat to Ali. Not at that point. He wasn't really ranked in the top and his best years were behind him. He was a good fighter with a knockout punch, but Ali was expected to knock him out. Case in point^^^

People need to realise Cleveland Williams was a LEGIT THREAT vs Ali at that point. He also had real power and a lot of experience. Some of those shots that just missed Ali looked real strong too, it's just that Ali made him look slow, so average kind of like Floyd did to Marquez. Williams was past his best, sure. I cannot believe you would even try to promote Williams as a kegitimate threat to Muhammad Ali at that point. Ask any doctors opinion or show me anybody else, who could come back after 1 year of being shot in the abdomen suffering major surgical intervestion, organ removal and wasting prior to a HW title fight? It's a joke. Yet if that same thing occurred today, you would be all over it! That's the double standards that so many of you on this forum choose to perpetuate. And Ray, I was not specifically insisting on Ali running in the Williams fight, I am simply saying that MOST of Ali's footwork in the 60's was "running" overall. Ali vs Williams and Ali vs Terrell were in fact the only 2 fights in which he really did look good. The same can be said of Wladimir vs Leapai or Wladimir vs Pianeta. Except Nobody CLAIMS Wladimir is the greatest for beating those types of opponents! Just for a perspective example!

Doesn't matter.... you may not be able to judge some things against weaker opposition, such as punching power and intangibles, but you can judge form. I can judge form from watching someone hit the heavy bag and do mittwork... can't yall? Let alone watching them fight. That fight Ali was nigh unstoppable I agree. His form was impeccable.

People need to realise Cleveland Williams was a LEGIT THREAT vs Ali at that point. He also had real power and a lot of experience. Some of those shots that just missed Ali looked real strong too, it's just that Ali made him look slow, so average kind of like Floyd did to Marquez. Williams was past his best, sure. If we're honest, he wasn't legit threat to Ali. Not at that point. He wasn't really ranked in the top and his best years were behind him. He was a good fighter with a knockout punch, but Ali was expected to knock him out.

Well you can believe in word of mouth if you like but I think I would rather believe in my own eyes. Williams is a hard puncher ey :lol1: Who cares if most of his KO victims were CW's, what does that matter right. You guys will just promote anything to make your boy look good. And nothing you claim even remotely revolves around common sense. I wonder what you'll say when they create a super heavy division at 235 and above. Then Wlad's resume will suddenly stink to high heaven. That's the kind of logic you use.

People need to realise Cleveland Williams was a LEGIT THREAT vs Ali at that point. He also had real power and a lot of experience. Some of those shots that just missed Ali looked real strong too, it's just that Ali made him look slow, so average kind of like Floyd did to Marquez. Williams was past his best, sure. he was, but he wasn't a historic great fighter. williams was a very athletic dude, he was big, and he knew how to fight. he was a contender in the 50's and 60's which was a pretty decent HW era. i have no doubt thaty williams would give the povetkins, stivernes, furies, and pulevs of the world a lot of trouble.

Cleveland began in 1952 he fought Ali in 1966 not exactly the same era!!!! He knew how to box and had good height and reach. he lost to Satterfield and Liston and theres no shame in that, he was a fringe contender for many years. Ali was in his 24th or 25th fight when Williams got his shot so it wasn't a straight up contest Cleveland had plenty of miles on him. mr.fantastic.....Don't know what you mean by running...........Ali took it right to him obviously you never watched the fight! Ray. williams was also shot in the hip / abdomen area in the mid 60's. he almost died. he lost 60 lbs, and had parts of several organs repaired or removed.

People need to realise Cleveland Williams was a LEGIT THREAT vs Ali at that point. He also had real power and a lot of experience. Some of those shots that just missed Ali looked real strong too, it's just that Ali made him look slow, so average kind of like Floyd did to Marquez. Williams was past his best, sure.

Well you can believe in word of mouth if you like but I think I would rather believe in my own eyes. Williams is a hard puncher ey :lol1: Who cares if most of his KO victims were CW's, what does that matter right. You guys will just promote anything to make your boy look good. And nothing you claim even remotely revolves around common sense. Check your profile cunt!:flirt::kiss:

I did not say he was greater than Ali overall. In relative terms Ali is of course greater than Wilder. I just said that Wilder would knock Ali out very early. And that in absolute terms Wilder's career so far has **** all over Ali's 1st career. Both are indisputable facts. I dispute them ...

Well you can believe in word of mouth if you like but I think I would rather believe in my own eyes. Williams is a hard puncher ey :lol1: Who cares if most of his KO victims were CW's, what does that matter right. You guys will just promote anything to make your boy look good. And nothing you claim even remotely revolves around common sense.

Really? Foreman said Williams was the hardest puncher did he even though it was only sparring. Even though he declared elsewhere that it was an "actual" hard puncher named Ron Lyle? Seems a bit of a conundrum. Even though he fought Tommy Morrison and Shannon Briggs who are obviously harder punchers than either! So let's be clear here, your saying THIS Cleveland Williams... http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2009/11/20/1225800/889300-1966-how-muhammad-ali-and-cleveland-williams-mat-6853583-jpg.jpg was a harder puncher than THIS Tommy Morrison... http://www.thesweetscience.com/images/stories/boxing2/Tommy_Morrison7.0.jpg Or THIS Shannon Briggs? http://www.prlog.org/10871225-shannon-briggs.jpg Have another drink man. I never felt any of those guys punches. I'm just saying what George Foreman said. Maybe it was because both those guys ran like girls from Foreman. Liston also said Williams was the hardest puncher he faced. I'm still going to trust men who are not only ATG heavyweights, but also shared the ring with the man rather than a guy who's looking at weight and thinking higher weight = harder punch.

Why is anyone responding to Elroy? Unless it's your first time seeing these posts, you should know better. Who the hell are you and what of any intelligence have you ever had to contribute? Get lost! I think you'll find that 100% of this forum would say he contributes a lot more to this forum than you do. And he's had plenty of intelligent, knowledgable and insightful things to contribute. Unlike you who's just an obsessed hater with no common sense.

Ignore...............he's just a ToooooL!! yea,,,Im finally starting to realize hes just trolling. nobody can be that clueless

Ignore...............he's just a ToooooL!!

Why is anyone responding to Elroy? Unless it's your first time seeing these posts, you should know better. Who the hell are you and what of any intelligence have you ever had to contribute? Get lost!

Why is anyone responding to Elroy? Unless it's your first time seeing these posts, you should know better.