Cuauhtemoc1520's take on this weekend 7/12/2014

I'm only going to touch the 4 main fights even though there were more. Mauricio Herrera vs Johanne Perez I really enjoy watching Herrera fight, I thought Perez did a better job than expected, but in the end Herrera really boxed well and took the fight over. He is so underrated IMO and I really hope he gets the fights and the pay days he deserves. I love his awkward style, the way he sets up the jab by being so off rhythm, throws it from an angle, standing straight up, on the move, he can do so much with that punch. Nobody wants to fight this guy, and it's obvious why. Francisco Vargas vs JuanMa Lopez This is a classic example of how 31 can be old. At 31 years old, JuanMa looks to have a million miles on the odometer. Not taking anything away from Vargas, but JuanMa can't take a shot anymore. I hope for his safety and the rest of his life, he quits boxing after being a really good fighter for so long. Vargas I believe is close to 30 and they need to push this guy fast. He has a lot of tools, and isn't just a come forward fighter. He can box, pressure and counter punch and depending on how fast he continues to improve, I really like watching him fight. Abner Mares vs Johnathan Oquendo This was a sloppy fight IMO. Oquendo was the stronger fighter, and was doing well early on but then Mares adjusted in the later rounds and pulled it off. Mares didn't look sharp though, the time off affected him and hopefully he stays busy and looks better the next time we see him. He just looked off, wasn't countering the way we are used to seeing and looked a little bit slower than usual. He needs to sharpen up if he's to fight Rigo. Canelo Alvarez vs Erislandy Lara I picked Canelo by stoppage in the 10th but also said that it could be a boring fight because of styles. Well, it was definitely an uneventful fight. Canelo isn't the pressure fighter people think he is, he's a counter puncher by trade and when he does come forward, does it with intelligence and caution. I knew Lara was going to move, but I expected him to throw more. In the first 3-4 rounds it was a very tough fight to score because neither man was really doing much. I gave those early rounds to Lara because he was moving a lot, but was landing 1-2's more often and keeping Canelo at distance. Then in the middle to later rounds, Lara stopped punching. I think there was a moment in the fight where Lara realized that Canelo is not only more powerful than he thought, but a better boxer than he expected. Mayweather vs Canelo played out much different and the comparisons aren't justified IMO. Mayweather moved yes, but also stood in front of Canelo and made him pay. He realized that Canelo was nowhere near the boxer he was, and standing in front of him wasn't really a risk. Where as Lara I think realized that the longer he stood in front of Canelo, the more risk it was because eventually he was going to get caught. Canelo did have a hard time cutting the ring off, but that's again because he comes forward but with caution. He's not going to come in like Angulo face first and risk getting caught with a big shot. Instead he was taking angles, using the jab effectively and going to the body beautifully. I do think those body shots also affected Lara even though he wouldn't admit it. I scored it 7-5 for Canelo, but I think a draw would have been justified. These fights are incredibly hard to judge because it depends on what style you like more. Do you score it for Lara who used better defense, movement and landed more head shots? Or do you score it for Canelo who pressured, used effective aggression and landed the better body shots and harder punches? It's a tough call and 115-113 either way was understandable but that last judge at 117-111 was a disgrace. Lara screwed himself though, he talked a lot leading up to the fight, he wanted this fight and called it the fight of his life and then shows up and.....DUD. Just doesn't do anything and thinks he's still in the Pan American games fighting in the international amateur system. This is the pro's and boxing and moving is great, but you have to land shots eventually. The Cuban school of boxing is fantastic....for the amateurs. For the pro's they need to learn to adjust, and understand that what wins in the end is throwing punches, it is boxing when all is said and done. I personally don't want to see a rematch, not because it's a hard fight for Canelo, but because of the styles. They just don't mesh well, the same reason I didn't want to see Canelo vs Mayweather again. Lara now has to go to the back of the line, and maybe we see Cotto and Canelo take a fight before a big showdown next year. Style wise, Canelo vs Cotto would be incredible. This has all the makings of FOTY and you mix in the Mexico vs PR thing, it's a mega fight.

Comments (20)

Not inaccurate at all... the only reason people are saying Lara lost was because of Canelo "bringing the pressure" and "trying to make the fight" couple with Lara "well, Lara did all this trash talking before the fight on social media." Canelo followed Lara around the ring not even throwing anything and there were several moments where He just stared at Lara when Lara did stand in front of him or lean against the ropes. After watching the replay, I could only had rounds 4, 7, 8, and 9 for Canelo. Canelo fought Lara's fight and he lost. Canelo wasn't applying any pressure, he was following Lara. Lara was outboxing Canelo, controlling the pace, landing the cleaner punches. I completely agree with your points there. Though round 5 and 12 are rounds that can be scored for Canelo if one favors the "puncher" and considers his body shots as clean punches. In my opinion the score can go between a draw and a 7-5 Lara. You score (8-4 Lara) is not unreasonable to me if one favors the "boxer" in the close rounds, although I know many will disagree. Anything more than 7-5 for Canelo is blatant corruption (or incompetence) imo. By the way, very good thread, and thanks to Cuahtemoc for sharing his knowledge. really interesting breakdowns of Canelo's style Even though he is Mexican (I guess so at least) , and probably likes Canelo more than Lara, I find his opinions are unbiased.

11y ago

BoxPrep

Canelo could box in the sense that he moved forward defensively responsible, used feints to make Lara reset and actually landed some jabs. If that wasn't case Lara wouldn't have moved corner to corner second guessing his attack. Hence the running accusations. Also, it's downright stupid to bring up the 4 criterias in a fight where both fighters were inconsistent and the bold is about the most inaccurate shit said pertaining to this fight. It's seems you need to watch it again or have your eyes checked at the very least. Not inaccurate at all... the only reason people are saying Lara lost was because of Canelo "bringing the pressure" and "trying to make the fight" couple with Lara "well, Lara did all this trash talking before the fight on social media." Canelo followed Lara around the ring not even throwing anything and there were several moments where He just stared at Lara when Lara did stand in front of him or lean against the ropes. After watching the replay, I could only had rounds 4, 7, 8, and 9 for Canelo. Canelo fought Lara's fight and he lost.

11y ago

Doctor_Tenma4618

Great for Berto... He also said he could beat Mayweather. Great for Goosen, I mean, we all know how he only trains technical boxers like Mayweather, Lara, Rigo, etc... Never knew how savvy a boxer John Molina is. Matter of fact, he says he picked Canelo because he always likes the aggressor, yet in his opinion he says Lara didn't KD or hurt Canelo.... wait when did Canelo KD or hurt Lara? Right, he didn't. I completely understand that it's subjective, but in this instance, what is there to base giving certain rounds to Canelo? Again, it wasn't effective pressure, look at Angulo vs Lara for a definition of effective pressure. And I'm only using effective pressure because everyone that says it isn't a robbery is using that weak stance for reasoning as to why Lara lost while conveniently leaving out the fact that Lara could do what he wanted in there undeterred and controlled the pace of the fight. As far as your thoughts that Canelo "knows" he could box with Lara, we both know that isn't true. If he could box with Lara, he wouldn't have taken Trout approach to just follow him around the ring (while being even less active than Trout was). If he could box him, he would have baited Lara in and set traps, but he didn't, he was following the carrot. Look, you're saying that Lara had to do more. Canelo threw an average of two more punches a round than Lara and landed less. Why didn't Canelo do more? Tell me, what did Canelo do in terms of Lederman's scoring criteria that was better than Lara? Rewatch the fight when it's available. Canelo could box in the sense that he moved forward defensively responsible, used feints to make Lara reset and actually landed some jabs. If that wasn't case Lara wouldn't have moved corner to corner second guessing his attack. Hence the running accusations. Also, it's downright stupid to bring up the 4 criterias in a fight where both fighters were inconsistent and the bold is about the most inaccurate shit said pertaining to this fight. It's seems you need to watch it again or have your eyes checked at the very least.

11y ago

BoxPrep

I have watched it 3 times now and let me address how absolutely absurd your logic is, and don't get offended because I'm not trying to be a di.ck. First off, Berto and anyone else can have an opinion if you can. Joe Goosen, another one who thought Canelo won, who knows more about boxing than you and I have forgotten. Second, judging is SUBJECTIVE. This isn't a mathematical equation as you are making it out to be. There are rules and guidelines as to how you should judge a fight, but different people hold some over others. For example, if a boxer lands 15 jabs in a round, then in that same round, the other fighter lands one hard shot that seems to stun that fighter, who do you give the round to? Canelo isn't going to take shots needlessly like Angulo, because Canelo knows he can box with Lara. Before you say Lara clearly out boxed him, Lara clearly defended well against Canelo, but he didn't land enough, nor was he aggressive enough in his counter punching to win that fight. I have no issue with you having scored it for Lara, but to say it was a robbery, does you a disservice and takes away all credibility from you. I been in this game for a long time, I have seen many robberies, and this was not one of them. Great for Berto... He also said he could beat Mayweather. Great for Goosen, I mean, we all know how he only trains technical boxers like Mayweather, Lara, Rigo, etc... Never knew how savvy a boxer John Molina is. Matter of fact, he says he picked Canelo because he always likes the aggressor, yet in his opinion he says Lara didn't KD or hurt Canelo.... wait when did Canelo KD or hurt Lara? Right, he didn't. I completely understand that it's subjective, but in this instance, what is there to base giving certain rounds to Canelo? Again, it wasn't effective pressure, look at Angulo vs Lara for a definition of effective pressure. And I'm only using effective pressure because everyone that says it isn't a robbery is using that weak stance for reasoning as to why Lara lost while conveniently leaving out the fact that Lara could do what he wanted in there undeterred and controlled the pace of the fight. As far as your thoughts that Canelo "knows" he could box with Lara, we both know that isn't true. If he could box with Lara, he wouldn't have taken Trout approach to just follow him around the ring (while being even less active than Trout was). If he could box him, he would have baited Lara in and set traps, but he didn't, he was following the carrot. Look, you're saying that Lara had to do more. Canelo threw an average of two more punches a round than Lara and landed less. Why didn't Canelo do more? Tell me, what did Canelo do in terms of Lederman's scoring criteria that was better than Lara? Rewatch the fight when it's available.

11y ago

CubanGuyNYC

Thanks man I really appreciate that and I try and study the game. Boxing is so complex, people think it's one thing and then it turns into something completely different when you become a trainer. As a boxer I thought I knew about boxing, I just knew how to fight...if that makes any sense. Now I'm actually learning about the sport. Go to 6:37 and watch as Canelo slips the left, then tries the right hand but Trout ducks it. Trout had been doing that in all of the previous rounds, so in an instant, he slips the right and changes it to an uppercut. That's more than instinct, that's learning and setting traps. If it was muscle memory, he would continue throwing the right hand, instead he throws the upper cut. Got o 4:23 where he lands an uppercut from distance. That's a dangerous punch, because it's just like throwing a right hook. You are wide open for a counter left cross, or left hook from an orthodox fighter. If you watch though, he leads him into the shot, so it's not risky. Can't teach that. He also sets it up with this little feint from the left hand, which he just flicks out occasionally. There's another uppercut that is the best punch of the fight from Canelo, even better than the knock down. I can't find it because the person who made the video only has a few rounds. It's a thing of beauty, he actually throws the punch to a spot where Trout's head isn't even there yet. Music is terrible whoever made the video...lol That's some nice work. Thanks for guiding me through it. I especially liked your first example. The second was very subtle. Good stuff. I learned years ago that uppercuts shouldn't be delivered from a distance. I think that's how Frazier put Ali down once. Boxing is like anything else: there's a lot more than meets the eye. To the uninitiated, it looks like these guys are just winging punches. Persons such as yourself see so much more. It must be a pleasure for you to watch certain guys fight. Anytime you learn a fair amount about something, it becomes so much more enjoyable.

11y ago

Cuauhtmoc1520

You're right. He will stand in the pocket and hit Canelo, which would also put him in harms way; Cotto is very vulnerable to uppercuts. It'll be interesting to see how fight negotiations go. I think they both do similar numbers in terms of ppv. Yea that's why I said it will be interesting to see how Canelo can take his shots. We know Cotto has a good chin, and has been battle tested, Canelo not so much.

11y ago

northstar

True but Cotto will stand in the pocket and hit Canelo, that's the difference. Man, I love this fight style wise. I have to give Cotto the edge in boxing and experience, and Canelo the edge in power, speed and youth. We will see man, let's make it in Estadio Azteca, Baya doesn't like that though. You're right. He will stand in the pocket and hit Canelo, which would also put him in harms way; Cotto is very vulnerable to uppercuts. It'll be interesting to see how fight negotiations go. I think they both do similar numbers in terms of ppv.

11y ago

Cuauhtmoc1520

Yes lol! Canelo is a big JMW; Cotto not so much. There's a reason why Floyd fought Alvarez at a catch weight. True but Cotto will stand in the pocket and hit Canelo, that's the difference. Man, I love this fight style wise. I have to give Cotto the edge in boxing and experience, and Canelo the edge in power, speed and youth. We will see man, let's make it in Estadio Azteca, Baya doesn't like that though.

11y ago

northstar

You mean Canelo gives Cotto a beating? I don't know, I think it will be determined how good Canelo can take Cotto's shots. Yes lol! Canelo is a big JMW; Cotto not so much. There's a reason why Floyd fought Alvarez at a catch weight.

11y ago

Cuauhtmoc1520

My opinion before and after Canelo's fight with Lara is: Cotto takes a beating. You didn't hear that from me though lol. You mean Canelo gives Cotto a beating? I don't know, I think it will be determined how good Canelo can take Cotto's shots.

11y ago

northstar

I mean this pretty much nails it. Canelo had to take more chances, but so did Lara. In the end, it wasn't a good fight. Boring for my taste and I don't want to see a rematch. Bring on Canelo vs Cotto. The young lion vs the old veteran. My opinion before and after Canelo's fight with Lara is: Cotto takes a beating. You didn't hear that from me though lol.

11y ago

Cuauhtmoc1520

That's what I was alluding to. Canelo is a solid fighter,with good counter punching skills; hence the reason why Lara's connect percentage was lower than usual. If Lara had started winging blows, there's a good chance he would've gotten laid out. Looking back, both men showed respect for one another's abilities in the ring. Canelo, IMO, could've pressed harder and cut off the ring better, but showed reservations because that would put him in the line of fire. Lara could've thrown more, but as was said above, didn't want to risk getting hit with something big. I mean this pretty much nails it. Canelo had to take more chances, but so did Lara. In the end, it wasn't a good fight. Boring for my taste and I don't want to see a rematch. Bring on Canelo vs Cotto. The young lion vs the old veteran.

11y ago

northstar

Lara ,IMO saw something in Alvarez that didn't allow him to be more aggressive. Whether he realized Alvarez is a better boxer than he realized and knew he will be placing himself at risk had he opened up even more. If he truly felt comfortable and confident he was the better boxer he would have made him pay and not been as economical with his output. That's what I was alluding to. Canelo is a solid fighter,with good counter punching skills; hence the reason why Lara's connect percentage was lower than usual. If Lara had started winging blows, there's a good chance he would've gotten laid out. Looking back, both men showed respect for one another's abilities in the ring. Canelo, IMO, could've pressed harder and cut off the ring better, but showed reservations because that would put him in the line of fire. Lara could've thrown more, but as was said above, didn't want to risk getting hit with something big.

11y ago

Cuauhtmoc1520

This is one of the reasons why I enjoy reading your posts, bro. I learn something. I don't know enough about the art of boxing to make those kind of observations and break it down like that. Very nice. Thank you. I like to think that I've been around long enough -- not just with boxing, but in other areas -- where I can recognize quality when I see it. Sometimes I'm wrong -- we all are -- but I think I've learned a thing or two. Canelo might implode, but I'm seeing something with him. His popularity isn't just due to the Mexican fanbase. He has that quality leaders are made from. Lara doesn't have that. In all fairness, 99.9% of the general population doesn't. Thanks man I really appreciate that and I try and study the game. Boxing is so complex, people think it's one thing and then it turns into something completely different when you become a trainer. As a boxer I thought I knew about boxing, I just knew how to fight...if that makes any sense. Now I'm actually learning about the sport. Go to 6:37 and watch as Canelo slips the left, then tries the right hand but Trout ducks it. Trout had been doing that in all of the previous rounds, so in an instant, he slips the right and changes it to an uppercut. That's more than instinct, that's learning and setting traps. If it was muscle memory, he would continue throwing the right hand, instead he throws the upper cut. Got o 4:23 where he lands an uppercut from distance. That's a dangerous punch, because it's just like throwing a right hook. You are wide open for a counter left cross, or left hook from an orthodox fighter. If you watch though, he leads him into the shot, so it's not risky. Can't teach that. He also sets it up with this little feint from the left hand, which he just flicks out occasionally. There's another uppercut that is the best punch of the fight from Canelo, even better than the knock down. I can't find it because the person who made the video only has a few rounds. It's a thing of beauty, he actually throws the punch to a spot where Trout's head isn't even there yet. Music is terrible whoever made the video...lol

11y ago

Dinamita_03

Comparing the compubox stats from this fight to Mayweather's (and a few of Pbf other bouts) I noticed that usually both Lara and Floyd, in relation to their opponents, throw less punches. They also keep their opponents' connect percentages pretty low. The one difference being, Mayweather usually lands at an extremely high rate. I've found myself saying that if Lara threw more punches he would've won the fight, but I didn't take into consideration that throwing more doesn't mean you'll land those punches. Although he was landing at a higher percentage than Alvarez, he really wasn't as efficient as he normally is. Lara ,IMO saw something in Alvarez that didn't allow him to be more aggressive. Whether he realized Alvarez is a better boxer than he realized and knew he will be placing himself at risk had he opened up even more. If he truly felt comfortable and confident he was the better boxer he would have made him pay and not been as economical with his output.

11y ago

CubanGuyNYC

Comparing the compubox stats from this fight to Mayweather's (and a few of Pbf other bouts) I noticed that usually both Lara and Floyd, in relation to their opponents, throw less punches. They also keep their opponents' connect percentages pretty low. The one difference being, Mayweather usually lands at an extremely high rate. I've found myself saying that if Lara threw more punches he would've won the fight, but I didn't take into consideration that throwing more doesn't mean you'll land those punches. Although he was landing at a higher percentage than Alvarez, he really wasn't as efficient as he normally is. Floyd is deadly accurate with his shots. The bold is a very perceptive statement, although one could argue that more punches means more connects, at least at around the same percentage rate as the final numbers indicate.

11y ago

CubanGuyNYC

The fight being close has allowed a lot of personal biases to come into play; not only in terms of boxing style preference either. Totally. Most people thought it was a close fight, whatever side of the fence they were on. Those swing rounds were influenced by biases, whether people want to acknowledge that or not.

11y ago

CubanGuyNYC

Man, you really nailed it. The "it" factor I can see from a mile away and this kid has it. Also, he does something that I think is very underrated and very difficult for boxers to do. He sets amazing traps, he will do something over and over, then switch it and it's like his opponents walk into shots, rather than him seeking them out. I think that's why he is more of a counter puncher by trade, because he has a knack of capitalizing on your mistakes. That upper cut vs Lara and 2 or 3 vs Trout were things of beauty where he changed the punch to land it. I agree on everything else you said though. This is one of the reasons why I enjoy reading your posts, bro. I learn something. I don't know enough about the art of boxing to make those kind of observations and break it down like that. Very nice. Thank you. I like to think that I've been around long enough -- not just with boxing, but in other areas -- where I can recognize quality when I see it. Sometimes I'm wrong -- we all are -- but I think I've learned a thing or two. Canelo might implode, but I'm seeing something with him. His popularity isn't just due to the Mexican fanbase. He has that quality leaders are made from. Lara doesn't have that. In all fairness, 99.9% of the general population doesn't.

11y ago

northstar

Yes. Awesome. One of the most difficult decisions, and one I've struggled with many times. As I explained last night, everyone has a different impression of moments like that and many more. It's like two dudes watching a woman walk by. One guy says, "Man, she's hot." The other says, "She's aiight." The first guy says, "Look at that ass." The other guy says, "I'm a breast man." And on it goes. People are naturally drawn to different things and interpret what they see within their own consciousness. The fight being close has allowed a lot of personal biases to come into play; not only in terms of boxing style preference either.

11y ago

CubanGuyNYC

First off, Berto and anyone else can have an opinion if you can. Joe Goosen, another one who thought Canelo won, who knows more about boxing than you and I have forgotten. Yes. Second, judging is SUBJECTIVE. This isn't a mathematical equation as you are making it out to be. There are rules and guidelines as to how you should judge a fight, but different people hold some over others. Awesome. For example, if a boxer lands 15 jabs in a round, then in that same round, the other fighter lands one hard shot that seems to stun that fighter, who do you give the round to? One of the most difficult decisions, and one I've struggled with many times. As I explained last night, everyone has a different impression of moments like that and many more. It's like two dudes watching a woman walk by. One guy says, "Man, she's hot." The other says, "She's aiight." The first guy says, "Look at that ass." The other guy says, "I'm a breast man." And on it goes. People are naturally drawn to different things and interpret what they see within their own consciousness.

11y ago