I started a numerical ranking system a while ago... and now finally have the results to unveil how it works!
The three fundamental principles of the system are:
1) Only fights at the weight division can contribute to a ranking in that division. Weight divisions exist because size matters and, moreover, each weight division is a different competitive field, so allowing fights at other weights to contribute to a divisional ranking isn't fair to fighters proven at the weight.
2) Level of opposition is paramount. You must beat (or draw with) a ranked fighter to get in the rankings. It's unacceptable to hand a fighter a high ranking without beating a ranked fighter. Unique to my system, a loss to a ranked fighter doesn't move a fighter down the rankings: a fighter shouldn't be able to sit on a ranking by taking on lower opposition, so losses to top opposition aren't punished.
3) Only results in the last three years are included. Three years is a fair period because boxers are generally at their current level for about that time. Older fighters shouldn't be given credit for their prime years, while unproven younger fighters shouldn't be overcredited for their most recent fight or two.
Ultimately this is trying to show that boxing rankings, just like rankings or standings in all other sports, should only reflect actual accomplishments. Ability, potential, or impressiveness of performances is far too subjective, so allowing that they should be reflected even somewhat in rankings will never allow consensus rankings to be established. That members of the TBRB publish opposing rankings based largely on differing opinion of ability shows how pointless and ineffective this method becomes.
The 'subjectivity' of Boxrec's ranking system is also the clue to the failure of their system. The statistical details they include are problematic because they're included in an attempt to thoroughly 'evaluate' the quality of wins. They give less credit for split decision wins, but don't seem to get that three judges are only used to arrive at a single decision. They give more credit for knockouts, but boxing isn't about knockouts. They adjust ranking based on past or future results of opponents, but it's pretty obvious a fighter should only be credited in rankings based on the level of an opponent when he fought him. I could go on, their system was made by stats nerds who miss the forest for the trees.
The only indisputably objective facts are: 1) the date, 2) the weights, and 3) whose hand was raised, and those are the simple, neutral criteria used for this system. Please check out the detailed rules, and the welterweight rankings here...
http://worldboxingrankings.proboards.com/
The one aspect of this system I suspect will be controversial is that the winner doesn't necessarily move above the ranked fighter he beat. Manipulating the system so the winner is always higher ends up devaluing the three year period and proven success over more than one fight, which should matter more--as one fight can be just a matter of styles, or a bit of a fluke. As it turns out, an unranked fighter beating a fighter ranked but below top 10 usually puts him higher, but an unranked fighter beating a top-10 opponent usually doesn't move above him.
I never ranked Khan above Marquez, I was just listing names, my own welterweight rankings have Marquez higher. But do you agree May/Pac/Bradley are the best? And that Berto is no longer relevant, having lost to Ortiz and Guerrero who are fringe top 15 guys at best.
Sorry to insist on semantics, but rankings aren't a list of the 'best', but the most accomplished (I personally think Bradley's not that skilled, and has only had the success he has from speed and athleticism and, but that sort of evaluation of ability shouldn't be relevant).
But as far as recent accomplishments: Pac's significantly dipped since 2011, losing to Bradley and Marquez, and taking on Rios in a tuneup, which him losing points from the Mosley fight in the rankings indicates; Bradley lost; and Mayweather's fought a bit lower opposition than them, and ventured to 154 twice the last two years. Meaning their holds as top three aren't as strong as they could be, which should allow the next most accomplished of the other welterweights a chance to sneak close. Because most of the rest have just one win over a ranked welterweight, Kell Brook's pretty much the next most accomplished. When the division becomes more wide open 'common sense' can't discriminate the differences too well, and it's much more helpful to quantify level of wins.
The system has Berto 9th, really mid-level amongst guys with solid points. And his hold on that is thin as he'll fall out if he doesn't fight a ranked fighter by September. But he's there because more established fighters should be favoured, till guys like Porter and Khan prove they belong at the top. The period should be the same for all fighters, rather than deciding case by case by the whims of 'common sense' when a fighter's no longer relevant.
It's a good idea but it needs tweaking. Maybe incorporate the official scorecards, or Compubox stats as well. Knock downs and knockouts should count extra?
I don't know. But it needs adjusting.
Compubox and all such should never be involved in ranking. It's absolutely terrible.
Your own 'common sense' that Fury's as high as fourth and Khan above Marquez won't find agreement amongst most people, which pretty much shows how that model's inherently flawed, similar to the Ring, the TBRB, etc. It's not clear what it's based on, it can't be verified, it becomes wildly subjective, and even open to influence and corruption. Rankings shouldn't be up for debate.
I never ranked Khan above Marquez, I was just listing names, my own welterweight rankings have Marquez higher. But do you agree May/Pac/Bradley are the best? And that Berto is no longer relevant, having lost to Ortiz and Guerrero who are fringe top 15 guys at best.
If Danny Garcia moved up to walter right now, why should Kell Brock be ranked higher then him? All his world class wins mean nothing? How bout his win over Khan, since it was at 140 he gets no credit for it? What happens to the first fighter Garcia fights when he does come up? The guy he fighting would be fighting a unranked fighter in your rankings, how that affect his ranking to fight a unranked figher. Lets say he beats Garcia so he gets no points in your system?
Indeed, world class wins at light welterweight aren't world class wins at welterweight. If Garcia beats a ranked welter when he moves up, he should only then crack the welterweight rankings. In this system, if a ranked welterweight beats a ranked light welterwight at welterweight he would get zero points, and at risk of being bumped down the rankings as fighters close to him beat proven welterweights. Porter shouldn't be credited for beating Malignaggi, who never beat a ranked welterweight. When a top division 2 football team is promoted they don't become the top division 1 team!
If Danny Garcia moved up to walter right now, why should Kell Brock be ranked higher then him? All his world class wins mean nothing? How bout his win over Khan, since it was at 140 he gets no credit for it? What happens to the first fighter Garcia fights when he does come up? The guy he fighting would be fighting a unranked fighter in your rankings, how that affect his ranking to fight a unranked figher. Lets say he beats Garcia so he gets no points in your system?
Well some rankings can work, or as I like to call them, "common sense" ranking.
Everyone in their right minds knows Wlad is number one at heavyweight, Pulev may be second then possibly Stiverne cos of his title win and possibly Fury. Then you have the rest of Wilder/Jennings/Chisora and co.
At welter we all know the top 3 are Floyd/Pac/Bradley. Beyond that i t's even footing between guys like Thurman, Porter, Alexander, Khan, and posisbly Marquez.
Your own 'common sense' that Fury's as high as fourth and Khan above Marquez won't find agreement amongst most people, which pretty much shows how that model's inherently flawed, similar to the Ring, the TBRB, etc. It's not clear what it's based on, it can't be verified, it becomes wildly subjective, and even open to influence and corruption. Rankings shouldn't be up for debate.
The problem with your rankings is you need a solution to moving around weight class, throwing out all points in another weight class is causing people to be ranked where they shouldn't be. Once you get a solution to that looks like your rankings would fall into place.
:soapbox: I'm not going to repeat why it's a problem to pretend weight divisions don't matter. Most people critcise other rankings when fighters unproven at the division are ranked highly. There's a slight exception for bouts in which both fighters are over the weight by not more than 1 lb, but otherwise these rankings are a solution to the problem that other rankings aren't truly divisional rankings.
It's a good idea but it needs tweaking. Maybe incorporate the official scorecards, or Compubox stats as well. Knock downs and knockouts should count extra?
I don't know. But it needs adjusting.
I've pretty much said all I can re Brook and Berto: Brook's more than likely sliding down and Berto out soon, but at the moment they deserve their spots.
The only reason numeric rankings can't work is the same reason no rankings can 'work' in current pro boxing: boxing is run by competing promotional interests and basically based on mismatches, rather than on fair competition. You'd be saying it doesn't work that a football team earns 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie if football teams picked their opposition game by game! I completely support AIBA's aspirations to govern pro boxing in its entirety, with a fair matchmaking structure based on accomplishments. Given that in current pro boxing the best don't have to fight the best most others agree with you and assume that we should reward potential in rankings. But as long as ability or potential is allowed to contribute to rankings there can never be close to consensus rankings! So I think it's important to offer a guide to purely the most accomplished fighters in a division, even if skewd matchmaking means one or two fighters aren't as high as their ability suggests they should be.
Well some rankings can work, or as I like to call them, "common sense" ranking.
Everyone in their right minds knows Wlad is number one at heavyweight, Pulev may be second then possibly Stiverne cos of his title win and possibly Fury. Then you have the rest of Wilder/Jennings/Chisora and co.
At welter we all know the top 3 are Floyd/Pac/Bradley. Beyond that i t's even footing between guys like Thurman, Porter, Alexander, Khan, and posisbly Marquez.
The problem with your rankings is you need a solution to moving around weight class, throwing out all points in another weight class is causing people to be ranked where they shouldn't be. Once you get a solution to that looks like your rankings would fall into place.
By the way, with this system Mayweather WAS above Pac from when Pac lost till when Pac beat Bradley, and even now with Pac considered lineal champion Mayweather has more points.
You know, I like the system in theory, it provides us with an objective ranking of fighters. Without the points based system, how many people would have Pacquiao as champion? But when you look at it objectively, over the last 3 years, he has beaten the likes of Bradley (2x honestly), Mosley and Marquez. It's fair to say Mosley was shot but if you look at it objectively, I seem to remember he was still top 10 ranked, Bradley has been in the top 3 or 4 for a while now and Marquez might make a top 10 at 147 too.
Compare this to Mayweather's run in the same time period, with Maidana, Ortiz and Guerrero, I don't think any of these guys compare to Bradley. But Mayweather deserved the top spot because he has never lost at the weight and jumped above Pac (just barely) when Pac got KOd by an old fighter.
Having said that, the system has it's fault where a guy like Berto is still ranked so high and Brook is 3rd, over two guys, Alexander/Porter, one a former titlist, the other the current IBF titlist. You see, boxing can't completely be objective, it's not like football or cricket or most team sports. We have to take into account individual skill levels, power and ring intelligence.
We have to see what the guy is doing in the ring, someone like Thurman has great potential and being objective doesn't cut it cos his opponents haven't been good enough. What we see in Thurman is someone with terrific power and good boxing ability, the know how of moving in and out of range, of working behind a jab and knowing when to finish off an opponent. None of this is apparent in points, it's something we can only judge by actually watching the guy fight and it's why he would be ranked over Berto and a few others in a top 10 ranking.
I've pretty much said all I can re Brook and Berto: Brook's more than likely sliding down and Berto out soon, but at the moment they deserve their spots.
The only reason numeric rankings can't work is the same reason no rankings can 'work' in current pro boxing: boxing is run by competing promotional interests and basically based on mismatches, rather than on fair competition. You'd be saying it doesn't work that a football team earns 3 points for a win and 1 point for a tie if football teams picked their opposition game by game! I completely support AIBA's aspirations to govern pro boxing in its entirety, with a fair matchmaking structure based on accomplishments. Given that in current pro boxing the best don't have to fight the best most others agree with you and assume that we should reward potential in rankings. But as long as ability or potential is allowed to contribute to rankings there can never be close to consensus rankings! So I think it's important to offer a guide to purely the most accomplished fighters in a division, even if skewd matchmaking means one or two fighters aren't as high as their ability suggests they should be.
You know, I like the system in theory, it provides us with an objective ranking of fighters. Without the points based system, how many people would have Pacquiao as champion? But when you look at it objectively, over the last 3 years, he has beaten the likes of Bradley (2x honestly), Mosley and Marquez. It's fair to say Mosley was shot but if you look at it objectively, I seem to remember he was still top 10 ranked, Bradley has been in the top 3 or 4 for a while now and Marquez might make a top 10 at 147 too.
Compare this to Mayweather's run in the same time period, with Maidana, Ortiz and Guerrero, I don't think any of these guys compare to Bradley. But Mayweather deserved the top spot because he has never lost at the weight and jumped above Pac (just barely) when Pac got KOd by an old fighter.
Having said that, the system has it's fault where a guy like Berto is still ranked so high and Brook is 3rd, over two guys, Alexander/Porter, one a former titlist, the other the current IBF titlist. You see, boxing can't completely be objective, it's not like football or cricket or most team sports. We have to take into account individual skill levels, power and ring intelligence.
We have to see what the guy is doing in the ring, someone like Thurman has great potential and being objective doesn't cut it cos his opponents haven't been good enough. What we see in Thurman is someone with terrific power and good boxing ability, the know how of moving in and out of range, of working behind a jab and knowing when to finish off an opponent. None of this is apparent in points, it's something we can only judge by actually watching the guy fight and it's why he would be ranked over Berto and a few others in a top 10 ranking.
You should still keeps most of your points if your moving up weight, just a small penalty, if your world class your world class. Reduce their non-divisional points by 5% per weight class.
Absolutely not. 5% is miniscule and inconsequential. The main reason I started this is because boxrec only adjusts points by about that much when fighters move up. That lets Chavez at 168 and Donaire at 126 have a high boxrec ranking. Examples in which a bigger fighter beat a fighter close in ability are legion. If you're good enough that you can beat bigger fighters... you have to show it!
As I mentioned, each division is also a different competitive field. Flyweight is the best division in boxing while light flyweight is nowhere near as deep, so a top light flyweight, say Nietes, shouldn't get a handicap if he moves up to flyweight.
Do these rankings affect how the fight ends or robberies?
For example, I have Ruslan Prov above Bradley on my 147 rankings because I thought he won the fight. If you had a choice of being Bradley or Prov at the end of that fight, 99% of people would say Prov.
And I agree with Pacquiao being #1 because hes the only guy whos fighting top P4P competition.
No, the rankings don't ignore results for bad decisions. It's a horrible slippery slope for rankings to decide some decisions shouldn't count, especially if you want to produce consensus rankings. Pacquiao-Bradley was an obvious robbery, but I think Marquez was robbed worse in the third fight, while I really don't agree with you that Bradley-Provo fight was worse than just debatable.
It's also not the business of rankings to try to police the sport by ignoring decisions. Better judging needs to be addressed through better governance and regulation, not through unofficial rankings. I actually think it's counterproductive for unofficial rankings to disregard official decisions: it suggests that rankings 'fixing' bad decisions is good enough, and judges can get away with it. There were several decisions I didn't agree with at ww since 1997 that had to stand in these rankings: De La Hoya-Quartey, Trinidad-De La Hoya, Piccirillo-Spinks, Bradley-Pac, Marquez-Pac..
You should still keeps most of your points if your moving up weight, just a small penalty, if your world class your world class. Reduce their non-divisional points by 5% per weight class.
Do these rankings affect how the fight ends or robberies?
For example, I have Ruslan Prov above Bradley on my 147 rankings because I thought he won the fight. If you had a choice of being Bradley or Prov at the end of that fight, 99% of people would say Prov.
And I agree with Pacquiao being #1 because hes the only guy whos fighting top P4P competition.
Just look at where some of the names are,,, how the hell is pac the champ, brook so high, porter so low... Just odd placement of fighters which doesn't accurately judge the current reality of the welter division... Some spots are legit, but too many random ones that don't make any sense..
You made no attempt to explain according to what the rankings might not be legit. I don't care if you don't 'like' them. Rankings or standings should reflect accomplishments at the division within a set period. What a fighter did at lower divisions, how he did predominantly in his most recent fight, or how 'impressive' a fighter's wins are don't get 'special credit' in rankings.
See my previous explication of how Brook earned his points. Brook beat the 18th, 11th, and 16th ranked fighters, and most of the newer entrants to the division haven't put together more than a win each. Brook, incidentally, may have reached his high point: he'll lose points beginning in July, and slide down the rankings if he doesn't beat a ranked fighter. But if he beats Porter he'll have solidified and proven his number 3 position. This system puts Porter's win over Malignaggi into perspective: Paulie never beat a welterweight who himself beat a ranked welterweight. Paulie, and therefore Broner, should never have been ranked at welterweight.
Do you want to support your assertion with an analysis of what the purpose of rankings are, and what they should reflect, as I've done? Or are they 'horrible' just because they don't result in a list of what you assume are the 'best' fighters?
Just look at where some of the names are,,, how the hell is pac the champ, brook so high, porter so low... Just odd placement of fighters which doesn't accurately judge the current reality of the welter division... Some spots are legit, but too many random ones that don't make any sense..
This ranking is horrible... No offense
Do you want to support your assertion with an analysis of what the purpose of rankings are, and what they should reflect, as I've done? Or are they 'horrible' just because they don't result in a list of what you assume are the 'best' fighters?