Pacquiao's lack of improvement in 4 Marquez fights: Proof that Roach is Limited?

Absolutely......... Yes I do. Juan ran the entire 12th when the fight was on the table, as a challenger, that is a no-no-no. It was uncharacteristic and foolish on his part. Out of the three fights up to that point, that is one he should've won. Blame him for not thinking when he needed to most. He was tired in the 12th and that's why he back-peddled, it wasn't because he thought he had the fight won. I know better than that.

No. This thread is stupid and disrespectful to Manny after what he's done for the sport and fans. You'd have to be an idiot if you are suggesting that the only 8 time division champ in history, is one dimensional. Based on what? Did you not watch and learn anything from the Bradley rematch??? He is a complete fighter. PERIOD. Stop trying to undermine his ability in the ring. Manny won 3 out of 4 fights because he simply out throws and outlands Roidquez every time. He's won over 80% of the rounds in his entire career. You do not outpoint him. Roidquez is a great counter puncher and very smart in the ring. He lands good single shots in a similar way that Floyd does, BUT at the end of the day, an active fighter who fights for 3 minutes of every round, can outpoint a counter puncher and that's what Manny did/does. In the 4th fight, Roidquez brought a little something extra to do the dance. We all know what that was. If they fight again, Manny will retire him and whoop his ass and Roidquez won't touch him. He is going to give him a boxing lesson but finish him this time. Roidquez was too old then, and he's too old now. Without the roids, Manny was going to KO him. You see he doesn't want a 5th fight, saying stuff like "he wants to keep this feeling". What feeling? LoL. Cheater!!!!!!!! If Manny ever fights Floyd, he will be the best and most atheletic fighter he's ever fought. HE can outpoint Floyd right now at age 35, and Floyd knows it and doesn't want the fight. Show some respect. This man just took out a top 5 pound4pound fighter in his prime, and the only question you pose is this? You're a HATER. You can't believe that manny won the third fight ????????????

pacquiao showed more technical improvements in each of their fights than marquez marquez came in with more or less the same gameplan every fight, except after the second it was "need to get stronger, faster" just put the moments he had in the first and second(clean overhands, left hooks etc) but with alot more power pacquiao in the first fight was left hand happy, second fight came in a more complete fighter and won his clearest fight in the series, 3rd fight he tried to box marquez before adjusting to a more aggressive style in the later rounds, 4th he came in with an aggressive, bobbing, fienting + lead left frenzy etc what did marquez do? he got more aggressive? yet in all of the serries just backpeddled, all he did was become stronger than pacquiao and grow ko power marquez in the first two fights had the exact same gameplan, then his plan was to get alot of power and ko pacquiao, but after winning some clear rd's in the third he reverted to his old style of boxing to take it on the cards, fourth he stuck to throwing bombs, although he didn't have much of a choice

Amir Khan sucks lmao.. wtf has khan gotta do with this thread? you phuckin weirdo.. lol..

No, it's proof that styles make fights.

Yup. Yup. Hopefully you read my post on the matter. He cheated and it's obvious. All of a sudden Manny's chin is back to normal again after 2wo fights back. Smh. Humans can be so stupid sometimes. It's like they don't believe it only because it's Manny and Roidquez is this perfect counter punching machine. PLEASE! Dude was clearly stronger than Manny on that night and that's never happened before. This guy was against boxer's lifting weights and saw no reason to do so. Now look at him. He's a power lifter all of a sudden? He's bench pressing and whatnot. Also, look at how little his legs are compared to his massive upper body.

Can you blame JMM for that though? Because Pacquiao became a superstar partly due to his fights with JMM and if he'd been given official losses in some, or all, of those fights it's very possible that JMM might have been the megastar instead of Pac. JMM knew that the official verdicts of those Pac fights basically changed the entire course of his career for many years.. PAC became a star moreso because of his offense-oriented fighting style and his ability to continually beat much bigger opposition. Partly personality. PAC speaks more English in interviews. JMM speaks English too but not in all his interviews. But what changed, was after the De La Hoya fight. The big money was in the heavier divisions 147 and up. After PAC defeated Oscar, there was lucrative money to be made. Beating guys with large fan bases helped too (Hatton, Mosley, De la hoya, cotto... prior to that morales, barrera) Fans especially casuals are drawn into the money fights and those fights happen at 147 and above. Little guys don't get the same respect. If JMM made more noise at 147 earlier on, he would have had more attention I'm sure.

No. This thread is stupid and disrespectful to Manny after what he's done for the sport and fans. You'd have to be an idiot if you are suggesting that the only 8 time division champ in history, is one dimensional. Based on what? Did you not watch and learn anything from the Bradley rematch??? He is a complete fighter. PERIOD. Stop trying to undermine his ability in the ring. Manny won 3 out of 4 fights because he simply out throws and outlands Roidquez every time. He's won over 80% of the rounds in his entire career. You do not outpoint him. Roidquez is a great counter puncher and very smart in the ring. He lands good single shots in a similar way that Floyd does, BUT at the end of the day, an active fighter who fights for 3 minutes of every round, can outpoint a counter puncher and that's what Manny did/does. In the 4th fight, Roidquez brought a little something extra to do the dance. We all know what that was. If they fight again, Manny will retire him and whoop his ass and Roidquez won't touch him. He is going to give him a boxing lesson but finish him this time. Roidquez was too old then, and he's too old now. Without the roids, Manny was going to KO him. You see he doesn't want a 5th fight, saying stuff like "he wants to keep this feeling". What feeling? LoL. Cheater!!!!!!!! If Manny ever fights Floyd, he will be the best and most atheletic fighter he's ever fought. HE can outpoint Floyd right now at age 35, and Floyd knows it and doesn't want the fight. Show some respect. This man just took out a top 5 pound4pound fighter in his prime, and the only question you pose is this? You're a HATER. How is the thread disrespectful to Manny? It's supposed to be about Roach as a trainer. If bringing up the subject of the razor-close fights Manny had with Marquez is somehow disrespectful to Manny, then I'd say that not talking about those fights is disrespectful to Marquez, and to boxing as a sport.

Whats all this fixation on JMM and Pac? Pac has won titles in 8 divisions so Roach must have done something right. But if Pac improved JMM improved also. Whilst Pac had to concentrate on fighting people other than JMM, JMM has based his whole career on how well he did against Pac. Is it any wonder JMM struggled with other opponents when they weren't Pac, how bad he did against Floyd or Katsidis? Because JMM had tunnel vision to how to fight Pac, he probably fought Pac when he was asleep and dreamed of fighting Pac. Can you blame JMM for that though? Because Pacquiao became a superstar partly due to his fights with JMM and if he'd been given official losses in some, or all, of those fights it's very possible that JMM might have been the megastar instead of Pac. JMM knew that the official verdicts of those Pac fights basically changed the entire course of his career for many years..

Whats all this fixation on JMM and Pac? Pac has won titles in 8 divisions so Roach must have done something right. But if Pac improved JMM improved also. Whilst Pac had to concentrate on fighting people other than JMM, JMM has based his whole career on how well he did against Pac. Is it any wonder JMM struggled with other opponents when they weren't Pac, how bad he did against Floyd or Katsidis? Because JMM had tunnel vision to how to fight Pac, he probably fought Pac when he was asleep and dreamed of fighting Pac.

So Juan isn't allowed to improve too right?

;14455207']Max Kellerman said it best "matchmaking" You think he's improved but truth is his other opponents weren't as good as JMM Yes. Cotto and Bradley for instance. How about Marquez is so obsessed with Pac and trains almost his entire career to beat him?

I voted no, I just think marquez style will always give pacquiao problems.

Nope..... No. This thread is stupid and disrespectful to Manny after what he's done for the sport and fans. You'd have to be an idiot if you are suggesting that the only 8 time division champ in history, is one dimensional. Based on what? Did you not watch and learn anything from the Bradley rematch??? He is a complete fighter. PERIOD. Stop trying to undermine his ability in the ring. Manny won 3 out of 4 fights because he simply out throws and outlands Roidquez every time. He's won over 80% of the rounds in his entire career. You do not outpoint him. Roidquez is a great counter puncher and very smart in the ring. He lands good single shots in a similar way that Floyd does, BUT at the end of the day, an active fighter who fights for 3 minutes of every round, can outpoint a counter puncher and that's what Manny did/does. In the 4th fight, Roidquez brought a little something extra to do the dance. We all know what that was. If they fight again, Manny will retire him and whoop his ass and Roidquez won't touch him. He is going to give him a boxing lesson but finish him this time. Roidquez was too old then, and he's too old now. Without the roids, Manny was going to KO him. You see he doesn't want a 5th fight, saying stuff like "he wants to keep this feeling". What feeling? LoL. Cheater!!!!!!!! If Manny ever fights Floyd, he will be the best and most atheletic fighter he's ever fought. HE can outpoint Floyd right now at age 35, and Floyd knows it and doesn't want the fight. Show some respect. This man just took out a top 5 pound4pound fighter in his prime, and the only question you pose is this? You're a HATER.

first fight i had marquez winning more rounds 7-5, but because of the 3 KDs in the first round i had pac winning by 1 point second fight was closer...i had the rounds even 6-6, but pac won it by 1 point because of the KD in third round third fight i scored it a draw..... I scored the first 3 fights the exact same way and viewed it in the same perspective. 2004 and 2008 PAC was more prime,...and coincidentally, the best case for PAC winning clearly in all their fights were the 1st 2 PAC-JMM fights. I simply think by 2011 and after hard fights (though seemingly easy) with Clottey and Margarito,...PAC had slowed down enough for JMM to time him better. Though, I still believe the 3rd fight was a draw.

Max Kellerman said it best "matchmaking" You think he's improved but truth is his other opponents weren't as good as JMM

first fight i had marquez winning more rounds 7-5, but because of the 3 KDs in the first round i had pac winning by 1 point second fight was closer...i had the rounds even 6-6, but pac won it by 1 point because of the KD in third round third fight i scored it a draw.....

Yes Look at the fourth fight, he was on the verge of knocking Marquez out only to get hit with an all or nothingout of desperation Hence Marquez refusing the fifth despite Pac giving Marquez 4 chances

So because Pacman struggles with one guy he lacks skills? I agree Roach isn't a complete trainer he mainly trains offense, but Pacman is far from one dimensional or limited. he might not set shoulder roll traps or look pretty but he gets the job down in his own way. If he lacked tools how did he adjust int he Morales rematch? Morales used the same strategy as the first fight and was out boxing and pushing Pacman back at times, and than Pacman started taking over and stopped him. Pacman only has problems with Marquez because of his aggressive gung ho counter punching style, he is willing to take chances against Pacman and gets the better of the exchanges.

Why is it hard for people to comprehend that Marquez is Manny's Joe Frazier, simple as that.