My Top 20 All Time

Where do I start? Nelson was a great fighter, a first ballot Hall of Famer I should add. Defeated Gomez in PR for his world title, made a combined 14 defenses of titles at 126 and 130 over a who's who of featherweights. And I don't understand the past his prime comment. After the loss to Pea, Nelson went on to have his career best win over an undefeated three division champ in Jeff Fenech and a decision over future champ Calvin Grove. Nelson came out of retirement at 37 (a super featherweight!) to stop Leija and Ruelas in successive bouts to win the title again. He wasn't great? You're in the minority and just wrong. You read write regarding McGirt. He was considered one of the best fighters in the world. Ranked #5 pound for pound when Whitaker fought him. An excellent champ. Never said he was an ATG but what prime ATG did Chavez beat? Yet you rank him well ahead of Whitaker who, by the way, also beat him.

And for the record, Nelson was a great fighter. McGirt very good -- prime, top 5 pound for pounder when Whitaker fought him in his fourth weight class. You posted your list I'm assuming so others could provide feedback. Or was it to challenge everyone else to post theirs if they disputed yours? Even if they did that, ultimately we would end up having this same conversation about where they should be placed. So don't take it wrong, I appreciate you taking the time to put this list together. To start, you say Whitaker doesn't have the resume. Can you explain how Chavez's is better? Discussions are all well and good and my original reply was to a guy saying the list was crap, I simply stated, he should provide his own list and then you posted, so I gave you the same reasoning. Criticising lists are fine, I've done the same here but I always provide an alternative. One can not say a list is wrong and then not provide an alternative with in depth reasoning. And back to Whitaker, Nelson was not a great fighter, certainly not ATG and genuinely approaching the end of his career at the top. He was very good though and like I said, WHitaker has a lot of very good names on his resume but just one great win (should have got the JCC decision) and two losses against two other ATGs. I dunno how or who ranked McGirt top 5 p4p, read that back over, it sounds like madness. Absolute madness but either way, in the early 90s there was a changing of the guard in boxing and I can see a young fighter like Mcgirt getting that ranking. Still doesn't make him a great fighter. Do you honestly believe McGirt was ATG? Chavez, much like Whitaker, doesn't have a resume of great names but he has far more very good names than Whitaker, Chavez cleared out superfeatherweight, had tonnes of defences and beat a lot of the guys Whitaker would face later and beat then better, normally by stoppage. Add to that wins over a prime Taylor (controversial but a stoppage none the less) and a very good version of Camacho, and it raises Chavez's resume. Add to that his longevity, far greater than Whitaker and more championships defenses in multiple divisions and bang, it's why Chavez is higher. Would you really argue with me that Whitaker has a better resume than say Manny Pacquiao who is ranked higher than him? Or a bigger ,more important impact on boxing than say Foreman? Those are arguments you have to prove if you believe Whitaker should be higher, although being in a top 50 is exceptional in itself, considering there have literally been thousands of fighters in the last 100 years.

And for the record, Nelson was a great fighter. McGirt very good -- prime, top 5 pound for pounder when Whitaker fought him in his fourth weight class.

You posted your list I'm assuming so others could provide feedback. Or was it to challenge everyone else to post theirs if they disputed yours? Even if they did that, ultimately we would end up having this same conversation about where they should be placed. So don't take it wrong, I appreciate you taking the time to put this list together. To start, you say Whitaker doesn't have the resume. Can you explain how Chavez's is better?

Pernell Whitaker is way too low. He should be well ahead of Hopkins who is way too high. So is Julio Cesar Chavez. Marciano and Lewis too high. So are de la Hoya, Barrera, Trinidad. Mayweather way too low. Toney too high. Jones should be a lot closer to Hopkins who I’m not convinced should be rated higher. Seriously, I could go on, so where do you want to begin? well I want you to post your list of 50 guys and the criteria of how you placed them. This list is made as accurately and as objectively as possible with the criteria I have. I think your major problem is the ranking of Mayweather. Which is fine, you love him but I prefer to stay objective. In terms of Whitaker, he doesn't have the best resume around, although his skill level is right near the top. Outside of the Chavez draw and losses to Oscar and Tito, which other great fighters did he face? Guys like Nelson and Ramirez were good fighters but not exactly great. Far from it in fact. So a good resume it is but not a great one, and that scores negatively when compared to other resumes. I can't justify him being higher than the likes of Pacquiao or Chavez Sr or Hearns or Hagler. Can you? If yes, why? Hopkins may be in a similar boat, not the greatest resume but good wins, a sprinkling of great fighters (Oscar, Tito, Jones) but a very lengthy title run, every middleweight belt around his waist and a decade long reign. Not to mention his longevity, he has beaten quality operators and often by a large margin, when he is well over the age of 40. That balances it out and places him higher. If you really want credence in this argument, you should at the very least post a researched, objective top 10 with write ups on each guy and what your criteria is. In terms of my own list, as I've mentioned several times before, I am in the process of updating it and will have some names higher but the differences are unlikely to be huge.

please, do tell me who should be ranked there who I haven't already ranked and where they should place. I'd be interested in seeing your list also. Pernell Whitaker is way too low. He should be well ahead of Hopkins who is way too high. So is Julio Cesar Chavez. Marciano and Lewis too high. So are de la Hoya, Barrera, Trinidad. Mayweather way too low. Toney too high. Jones should be a lot closer to Hopkins who I’m not convinced should be rated higher. Seriously, I could go on, so where do you want to begin?

agreed, terrible list....... please, do tell me who should be ranked there who I haven't already ranked and where they should place. I'd be interested in seeing your list also.

Yikes is all I can say. agreed, terrible list.......

Yikes is all I can say.

There's been a lot of discussion on who should be a top 20 ATG. Should Hopkins be there? Should he not? Most of you know my opinion on that but it got me thinking, it's about time I made a top 20 of my own. I've never done this before and it may be subject to change but here goes: 1. "Sugar" Ray Robinson Just can't argue with how great SRR really was, welterweight champion, multiple time mw champion and almost the lhw champion of the world. Between 1940 and 1950, Ray had everything a fighter needs, immense power, exceptional speed, quick feet and cat like reflexes. he was a league above almost everyone he faced and in that decade, he faced just about everyone who mattered. The fact that he beat top ranked contenders and HOF champions post-prime just goes to show you how good he really was. 2. Muhammad "The Louisville Lip" Ali The only fighter who comes close to SRR in terms of all round skill, at his best, from 1964-67 Ali was as unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. The heavyweight homage to Robinson Ali had it all, a great jab, a terrific right hand, reflexes never before seen in a heavyweight and instinctive, perfectly tuned footwork. Ali of the 70s was not quite as good but he added toughness, grit and a never say die attitude to his work, along with the scalps of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers and co, the greatest resume in the division's history. 3. Willie "Will O' the Wisp" Pep The single greatest defensive wizard in the sport, he'd make the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather look ordinary. Fleet footed and always exceptionally well conditioned, he danced rings around the featherweight division better than anyone else before or since. After his plane crash, he wasn't quite the same fighter, he was a tad slower, a little less of a dancer but just like Ali, he had to learn to go to war and he did, many, many times. 4. Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong Armstrong was whirring machine of destruction, a man who never seemed to stop punching, no matter if he was fighting featherweights or middleweights. He had a great engine, exceptional power and the ability to adjust to his opponents. At his very best he almost held half the world titles on offer in the sport, a feat that would now seem impossible. He may not have been defensively savvy as Pep or as pretty to watch as Ali but he was equally as effective. 5. Benny Leonard "Ghetto Wizard" Leonard The greatest lightweight ever? Probably. In his prime...which seemed to go on forever, Leonard seemed to be unbeatable, he has it all, sped of foot and hand as well as the ability to fight off the front and back foot. He retired as an undefeated champion but sadly, like most fighters, he couldn't stay away and returned. If you catch footage of that version of Benny, it's a sad sight, not in the same supreme condition and never again as quick as he had been in his best years. One of the top 5 best fighters ever. 6. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran Easily one of my favourite fighters ever to watch, the man was a beast, snarling, growling and sometimes smiling like a psychopath, he ripped a whole in the lightweight division for almost a decade but some of his most memorable bouts came as high as 160lbs, just going to show you how good he really was. Duran was an offensive master but at his best he had underrated defense, the ability to duck and slip punches. His quit job against Leonard will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth, stopping him from being any higher in my list. 7. Joe "Brown Bomber" Louis The second greatest heavyweight ever in my opinion, the longest reigning and one of the toughest too. Louis was a highly skilled operative in the ring, he didn't have the flair of an Ali or a Tyson, he was a lot more mechanical in the ring but he made up for it with undoubted ring smarts and great power. It's true that a lot of Louis' opposition in his long run were "bums" but he also fought his fair share of greats and HOFers, not all of them were heavyweights though, stopping him getting into my top 5. 8. Ezzard "Cincinnati Cobra" Charles Famed as a heavyweight champion, Charles is amongst the best ever in three different divisions, a real rarity in the sport. He should have been light-heavyweight champion but was never given the chance, despite being no. 1 contender and holding victories over such men as Archie Moore and Sam Baroudi. But he finally got the recognition he wanted with his heavyweight title reign, beating the likes of Walcott and Louis and proving against Marciano, that even this late in his career, he was one of the best. 9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard SRL in just 40 fights has done more than what most fighters can dream of in over a 100 professional bouts. Leonard at his best was a highly skilled fighter who could tough it out with the best of them, as he proved against Duran, Hearns, Lolande and others. Leonard at his peak was a complete fighter with extremely high ring IQ, proven when well past his best, he traveled up to 160 and claimed the undisputed MW title from Hagler, one of the greatest victories in the 20th century. 10. Julio Cesar Chavez Like Charles and Armstrong before him, Chavez can be accredited as being a great fighter, one of the absolute elite in a number of different divisions. When talking about great lightweights and great light-welterweights, it is impossible to mention the great JCC. The greatest Mexican fighter ever and a warrior with underrated boxing skills. He lacked the panache of contemporaries such as Whitaker, Leonard and Taylor but he made up for it with an unquestionable heart, a great chin and power. Chavez knew how to wear down an opponent and when the time was right, he could seriously damage them. A definite top 10. 11. Sam "Boston Tar Baby" Langford 12. Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore 13. Mickey "Toy Bulldog" Walker 14. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler 15. Harry "Pittsburgh Windmill" Greb 16. "Big" George Foreman 17. Jimmy "Mighty Atom" Wilde 18. "The Fighting Marine" Gene Tunney 19. "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins 20. Joe "The Old Master" Gans 21. Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon 22. Joseph "Sandy" Saddler 23. "Pitssburgh Kid" Billy Conn 24. "Galveston Giant" Jack Johnson 25. Marcel "Casablanca Clouter" Cerdan 26. Dov-Ber Rosovsky AKA Barney Ross 27. Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns 28. "The Easton Assassin" Larry Holmes 29. Eder "O Galo Do Ouro" Jofre 30. "Smokin'" Joe Frazier 31. Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao 32. "Sweet Pea" Pernell Whitaker 33. Tony Canzoneri 34. "The Brockton Blockbuster" Rocky Marciano 35. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles 36. Emile Griffith 37. Lennox "The Lion" Lewis 38. Jack "Manassa Mauler" Dempsey 39. Jake "Raging Bull" LaMotta 40. Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield 41. Oscar "Golden Boy" De La Hoya 42. "Baby Faced Assassin" Marco Antonio Barrera 43. Felix "Tito" Trinidad 44. "Pretty Boy" Floyd Mayweather 45. "Iron" Mike Tyson 46. Roy Jones Jr 47. Erik "El Terrible" Morales 48. "El Flaco Explosivo" Alexis Arguello 49. James "Lights Out" Toney 50. "The Champ" Salvador Sanchez Hopkins is top 35. Rjj is top 30. You got roy way to far down the list.

I firmly believe that Pacquaio and Mayweather have had better and more impressive careers than Hopkins and cant understand why so many have him above them both. Anyone care to convince me otherwise? I don't understand it either. And to have him in the top 10 is just asinine.

Harry Greb has to be locked for the top 5, if not higher. The guy has an unbelievable resume. Harry Greb and Sam Langford have the greatest resumes ever. It's almost orgasmic to look through their records, completely in awe! I've got SRR, Greb and Langford a long way ahead of 4th place Armstrong!

Yet you have Jimmy Wilde in your list? :lol1: What's your basis for having Wilde in there? Out of curiosity. A long list of fighters on your list are "old school" fighters from pre 1950. 1) Ray Robinson 2) Harry Greb 3) Sam Langford 4) Henry Armstrong 5) Muhammad Ali 6) Benny Leonard 7) Joe Louis 8) Willie Pep 9) Roberto Duran 10) Gene Tunney

There's been a lot of discussion on who should be a top 20 ATG. Should Hopkins be there? Should he not? Most of you know my opinion on that but it got me thinking, it's about time I made a top 20 of my own. I've never done this before and it may be subject to change but here goes: 1. "Sugar" Ray Robinson Just can't argue with how great SRR really was, welterweight champion, multiple time mw champion and almost the lhw champion of the world. Between 1940 and 1950, Ray had everything a fighter needs, immense power, exceptional speed, quick feet and cat like reflexes. he was a league above almost everyone he faced and in that decade, he faced just about everyone who mattered. The fact that he beat top ranked contenders and HOF champions post-prime just goes to show you how good he really was. 2. Muhammad "The Louisville Lip" Ali The only fighter who comes close to SRR in terms of all round skill, at his best, from 1964-67 Ali was as unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. The heavyweight homage to Robinson Ali had it all, a great jab, a terrific right hand, reflexes never before seen in a heavyweight and instinctive, perfectly tuned footwork. Ali of the 70s was not quite as good but he added toughness, grit and a never say die attitude to his work, along with the scalps of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers and co, the greatest resume in the division's history. 3. Willie "Will O' the Wisp" Pep The single greatest defensive wizard in the sport, he'd make the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather look ordinary. Fleet footed and always exceptionally well conditioned, he danced rings around the featherweight division better than anyone else before or since. After his plane crash, he wasn't quite the same fighter, he was a tad slower, a little less of a dancer but just like Ali, he had to learn to go to war and he did, many, many times. 4. Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong Armstrong was whirring machine of destruction, a man who never seemed to stop punching, no matter if he was fighting featherweights or middleweights. He had a great engine, exceptional power and the ability to adjust to his opponents. At his very best he almost held half the world titles on offer in the sport, a feat that would now seem impossible. He may not have been defensively savvy as Pep or as pretty to watch as Ali but he was equally as effective. 5. Benny Leonard "Ghetto Wizard" Leonard The greatest lightweight ever? Probably. In his prime...which seemed to go on forever, Leonard seemed to be unbeatable, he has it all, sped of foot and hand as well as the ability to fight off the front and back foot. He retired as an undefeated champion but sadly, like most fighters, he couldn't stay away and returned. If you catch footage of that version of Benny, it's a sad sight, not in the same supreme condition and never again as quick as he had been in his best years. One of the top 5 best fighters ever. 6. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran Easily one of my favourite fighters ever to watch, the man was a beast, snarling, growling and sometimes smiling like a psychopath, he ripped a whole in the lightweight division for almost a decade but some of his most memorable bouts came as high as 160lbs, just going to show you how good he really was. Duran was an offensive master but at his best he had underrated defense, the ability to duck and slip punches. His quit job against Leonard will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth, stopping him from being any higher in my list. 7. Joe "Brown Bomber" Louis The second greatest heavyweight ever in my opinion, the longest reigning and one of the toughest too. Louis was a highly skilled operative in the ring, he didn't have the flair of an Ali or a Tyson, he was a lot more mechanical in the ring but he made up for it with undoubted ring smarts and great power. It's true that a lot of Louis' opposition in his long run were "bums" but he also fought his fair share of greats and HOFers, not all of them were heavyweights though, stopping him getting into my top 5. 8. Ezzard "Cincinnati Cobra" Charles Famed as a heavyweight champion, Charles is amongst the best ever in three different divisions, a real rarity in the sport. He should have been light-heavyweight champion but was never given the chance, despite being no. 1 contender and holding victories over such men as Archie Moore and Sam Baroudi. But he finally got the recognition he wanted with his heavyweight title reign, beating the likes of Walcott and Louis and proving against Marciano, that even this late in his career, he was one of the best. 9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard SRL in just 40 fights has done more than what most fighters can dream of in over a 100 professional bouts. Leonard at his best was a highly skilled fighter who could tough it out with the best of them, as he proved against Duran, Hearns, Lolande and others. Leonard at his peak was a complete fighter with extremely high ring IQ, proven when well past his best, he traveled up to 160 and claimed the undisputed MW title from Hagler, one of the greatest victories in the 20th century. 10. Julio Cesar Chavez Like Charles and Armstrong before him, Chavez can be accredited as being a great fighter, one of the absolute elite in a number of different divisions. When talking about great lightweights and great light-welterweights, it is impossible to mention the great JCC. The greatest Mexican fighter ever and a warrior with underrated boxing skills. He lacked the panache of contemporaries such as Whitaker, Leonard and Taylor but he made up for it with an unquestionable heart, a great chin and power. Chavez knew how to wear down an opponent and when the time was right, he could seriously damage them. A definite top 10. 11. Sam "Boston Tar Baby" Langford 12. Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore 13. Mickey "Toy Bulldog" Walker 14. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler 15. Harry "Pittsburgh Windmill" Greb 16. "Big" George Foreman 17. Jimmy "Mighty Atom" Wilde 18. "The Fighting Marine" Gene Tunney 19. "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins 20. Joe "The Old Master" Gans 21. Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon 22. Joseph "Sandy" Saddler 23. "Pitssburgh Kid" Billy Conn 24. "Galveston Giant" Jack Johnson 25. Marcel "Casablanca Clouter" Cerdan 26. Dov-Ber Rosovsky AKA Barney Ross 27. Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns 28. "The Easton Assassin" Larry Holmes 29. Eder "O Galo Do Ouro" Jofre 30. "Smokin'" Joe Frazier 31. Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao 32. "Sweet Pea" Pernell Whitaker 33. Tony Canzoneri 34. "The Brockton Blockbuster" Rocky Marciano 35. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles 36. Emile Griffith 37. Lennox "The Lion" Lewis 38. Jack "Manassa Mauler" Dempsey 39. Jake "Raging Bull" LaMotta 40. Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield 41. Oscar "Golden Boy" De La Hoya 42. "Baby Faced Assassin" Marco Antonio Barrera 43. Felix "Tito" Trinidad 44. "Pretty Boy" Floyd Mayweather 45. "Iron" Mike Tyson 46. Roy Jones Jr 47. Erik "El Terrible" Morales 48. "El Flaco Explosivo" Alexis Arguello 49. James "Lights Out" Toney 50. "The Champ" Salvador Sanchez Harry Greb at 15!!!!!!!! What the ****!

I firmly believe that Pacquaio and Mayweather have had better and more impressive careers than Hopkins and cant understand why so many have him above them both. Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

Yeah, I should have included Charles, I don't know why I missed out on him. Jack Johnson was not only an unbelievable fighter for his time, a long reigning champ, but was also so important outside of the ring. Not only was he the pioneer of black heavyweight boxing and black inclusion in sport as a whole, but was an unbelievable figure outside of the ring and the first african american cult hero. Much like Ali's greatness is elevated because of out of the ring accomplishments, so is Jack Johnson and I think he fully deserves a place in the top 10. But as I said, each to his own. Jack Johnson in the top 10 P4P is bizarre. I also disagree that Ali's greatness is elevated. He beat the highest percentage of Top 10 contenders out of any fighter ever. Jack Johnson avoided anyone who would give him a tough fight.

A pretty good list but to not have Young Griffo in there anywhere is a crime and Les Darcy should be there too I feel but Griffos resume and the fact he is the greatest defensive genius of all time means he should be there... I believe he is top 20.... easy Oops, just saw this. I explained my reasoning for Griffo in your thread, just can't see him top 50, that would be crazy. Les Darcy even less so. Why would you rank him so high? Any particular reason?

There's been a lot of discussion on who should be a top 20 ATG. Should Hopkins be there? Should he not? Most of you know my opinion on that but it got me thinking, it's about time I made a top 20 of my own. I've never done this before and it may be subject to change but here goes: 1. "Sugar" Ray Robinson Just can't argue with how great SRR really was, welterweight champion, multiple time mw champion and almost the lhw champion of the world. Between 1940 and 1950, Ray had everything a fighter needs, immense power, exceptional speed, quick feet and cat like reflexes. he was a league above almost everyone he faced and in that decade, he faced just about everyone who mattered. The fact that he beat top ranked contenders and HOF champions post-prime just goes to show you how good he really was. 2. Muhammad "The Louisville Lip" Ali The only fighter who comes close to SRR in terms of all round skill, at his best, from 1964-67 Ali was as unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. The heavyweight homage to Robinson Ali had it all, a great jab, a terrific right hand, reflexes never before seen in a heavyweight and instinctive, perfectly tuned footwork. Ali of the 70s was not quite as good but he added toughness, grit and a never say die attitude to his work, along with the scalps of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers and co, the greatest resume in the division's history. 3. Willie "Will O' the Wisp" Pep The single greatest defensive wizard in the sport, he'd make the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather look ordinary. Fleet footed and always exceptionally well conditioned, he danced rings around the featherweight division better than anyone else before or since. After his plane crash, he wasn't quite the same fighter, he was a tad slower, a little less of a dancer but just like Ali, he had to learn to go to war and he did, many, many times. 4. Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong Armstrong was whirring machine of destruction, a man who never seemed to stop punching, no matter if he was fighting featherweights or middleweights. He had a great engine, exceptional power and the ability to adjust to his opponents. At his very best he almost held half the world titles on offer in the sport, a feat that would now seem impossible. He may not have been defensively savvy as Pep or as pretty to watch as Ali but he was equally as effective. 5. Benny Leonard "Ghetto Wizard" Leonard The greatest lightweight ever? Probably. In his prime...which seemed to go on forever, Leonard seemed to be unbeatable, he has it all, sped of foot and hand as well as the ability to fight off the front and back foot. He retired as an undefeated champion but sadly, like most fighters, he couldn't stay away and returned. If you catch footage of that version of Benny, it's a sad sight, not in the same supreme condition and never again as quick as he had been in his best years. One of the top 5 best fighters ever. 6. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran Easily one of my favourite fighters ever to watch, the man was a beast, snarling, growling and sometimes smiling like a psychopath, he ripped a whole in the lightweight division for almost a decade but some of his most memorable bouts came as high as 160lbs, just going to show you how good he really was. Duran was an offensive master but at his best he had underrated defense, the ability to duck and slip punches. His quit job against Leonard will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth, stopping him from being any higher in my list. 7. Joe "Brown Bomber" Louis The second greatest heavyweight ever in my opinion, the longest reigning and one of the toughest too. Louis was a highly skilled operative in the ring, he didn't have the flair of an Ali or a Tyson, he was a lot more mechanical in the ring but he made up for it with undoubted ring smarts and great power. It's true that a lot of Louis' opposition in his long run were "bums" but he also fought his fair share of greats and HOFers, not all of them were heavyweights though, stopping him getting into my top 5. 8. Ezzard "Cincinnati Cobra" Charles Famed as a heavyweight champion, Charles is amongst the best ever in three different divisions, a real rarity in the sport. He should have been light-heavyweight champion but was never given the chance, despite being no. 1 contender and holding victories over such men as Archie Moore and Sam Baroudi. But he finally got the recognition he wanted with his heavyweight title reign, beating the likes of Walcott and Louis and proving against Marciano, that even this late in his career, he was one of the best. 9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard SRL in just 40 fights has done more than what most fighters can dream of in over a 100 professional bouts. Leonard at his best was a highly skilled fighter who could tough it out with the best of them, as he proved against Duran, Hearns, Lolande and others. Leonard at his peak was a complete fighter with extremely high ring IQ, proven when well past his best, he traveled up to 160 and claimed the undisputed MW title from Hagler, one of the greatest victories in the 20th century. 10. Julio Cesar Chavez Like Charles and Armstrong before him, Chavez can be accredited as being a great fighter, one of the absolute elite in a number of different divisions. When talking about great lightweights and great light-welterweights, it is impossible to mention the great JCC. The greatest Mexican fighter ever and a warrior with underrated boxing skills. He lacked the panache of contemporaries such as Whitaker, Leonard and Taylor but he made up for it with an unquestionable heart, a great chin and power. Chavez knew how to wear down an opponent and when the time was right, he could seriously damage them. A definite top 10. 11. Sam "Boston Tar Baby" Langford 12. Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore 13. Mickey "Toy Bulldog" Walker 14. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler 15. Harry "Pittsburgh Windmill" Greb 16. "Big" George Foreman 17. Jimmy "Mighty Atom" Wilde 18. "The Fighting Marine" Gene Tunney 19. "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins 20. Joe "The Old Master" Gans 21. Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon 22. Joseph "Sandy" Saddler 23. "Pitssburgh Kid" Billy Conn 24. "Galveston Giant" Jack Johnson 25. Marcel "Casablanca Clouter" Cerdan 26. Dov-Ber Rosovsky AKA Barney Ross 27. Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns 28. "The Easton Assassin" Larry Holmes 29. Eder "O Galo Do Ouro" Jofre 30. "Smokin'" Joe Frazier 31. Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao 32. "Sweet Pea" Pernell Whitaker 33. Tony Canzoneri 34. "The Brockton Blockbuster" Rocky Marciano 35. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles 36. Emile Griffith 37. Lennox "The Lion" Lewis 38. Jack "Manassa Mauler" Dempsey 39. Jake "Raging Bull" LaMotta 40. Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield 41. Oscar "Golden Boy" De La Hoya 42. "Baby Faced Assassin" Marco Antonio Barrera 43. Felix "Tito" Trinidad 44. "Pretty Boy" Floyd Mayweather 45. "Iron" Mike Tyson 46. Roy Jones Jr 47. Erik "El Terrible" Morales 48. "El Flaco Explosivo" Alexis Arguello 49. James "Lights Out" Toney 50. "The Champ" Salvador Sanchez Great list I would change a few slots but great list none the less

Man, all Y'all trippin with all these prehistoric fighters listed as better than the best fighters of the last 40yrs. Sheesh... Says a guy with all those red boxes to his name.

There's been a lot of discussion on who should be a top 20 ATG. Should Hopkins be there? Should he not? Most of you know my opinion on that but it got me thinking, it's about time I made a top 20 of my own. I've never done this before and it may be subject to change but here goes: 1. "Sugar" Ray Robinson Just can't argue with how great SRR really was, welterweight champion, multiple time mw champion and almost the lhw champion of the world. Between 1940 and 1950, Ray had everything a fighter needs, immense power, exceptional speed, quick feet and cat like reflexes. he was a league above almost everyone he faced and in that decade, he faced just about everyone who mattered. The fact that he beat top ranked contenders and HOF champions post-prime just goes to show you how good he really was. 2. Muhammad "The Louisville Lip" Ali The only fighter who comes close to SRR in terms of all round skill, at his best, from 1964-67 Ali was as unbeatable as any fighter has ever been. The heavyweight homage to Robinson Ali had it all, a great jab, a terrific right hand, reflexes never before seen in a heavyweight and instinctive, perfectly tuned footwork. Ali of the 70s was not quite as good but he added toughness, grit and a never say die attitude to his work, along with the scalps of Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Shavers and co, the greatest resume in the division's history. 3. Willie "Will O' the Wisp" Pep The single greatest defensive wizard in the sport, he'd make the likes of Whitaker and Mayweather look ordinary. Fleet footed and always exceptionally well conditioned, he danced rings around the featherweight division better than anyone else before or since. After his plane crash, he wasn't quite the same fighter, he was a tad slower, a little less of a dancer but just like Ali, he had to learn to go to war and he did, many, many times. 4. Henry "Homicide Hank" Armstrong Armstrong was whirring machine of destruction, a man who never seemed to stop punching, no matter if he was fighting featherweights or middleweights. He had a great engine, exceptional power and the ability to adjust to his opponents. At his very best he almost held half the world titles on offer in the sport, a feat that would now seem impossible. He may not have been defensively savvy as Pep or as pretty to watch as Ali but he was equally as effective. 5. Benny Leonard "Ghetto Wizard" Leonard The greatest lightweight ever? Probably. In his prime...which seemed to go on forever, Leonard seemed to be unbeatable, he has it all, sped of foot and hand as well as the ability to fight off the front and back foot. He retired as an undefeated champion but sadly, like most fighters, he couldn't stay away and returned. If you catch footage of that version of Benny, it's a sad sight, not in the same supreme condition and never again as quick as he had been in his best years. One of the top 5 best fighters ever. 6. Roberto "Manos de Piedra" Duran Easily one of my favourite fighters ever to watch, the man was a beast, snarling, growling and sometimes smiling like a psychopath, he ripped a whole in the lightweight division for almost a decade but some of his most memorable bouts came as high as 160lbs, just going to show you how good he really was. Duran was an offensive master but at his best he had underrated defense, the ability to duck and slip punches. His quit job against Leonard will always leave a bitter taste in my mouth, stopping him from being any higher in my list. 7. Joe "Brown Bomber" Louis The second greatest heavyweight ever in my opinion, the longest reigning and one of the toughest too. Louis was a highly skilled operative in the ring, he didn't have the flair of an Ali or a Tyson, he was a lot more mechanical in the ring but he made up for it with undoubted ring smarts and great power. It's true that a lot of Louis' opposition in his long run were "bums" but he also fought his fair share of greats and HOFers, not all of them were heavyweights though, stopping him getting into my top 5. 8. Ezzard "Cincinnati Cobra" Charles Famed as a heavyweight champion, Charles is amongst the best ever in three different divisions, a real rarity in the sport. He should have been light-heavyweight champion but was never given the chance, despite being no. 1 contender and holding victories over such men as Archie Moore and Sam Baroudi. But he finally got the recognition he wanted with his heavyweight title reign, beating the likes of Walcott and Louis and proving against Marciano, that even this late in his career, he was one of the best. 9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard SRL in just 40 fights has done more than what most fighters can dream of in over a 100 professional bouts. Leonard at his best was a highly skilled fighter who could tough it out with the best of them, as he proved against Duran, Hearns, Lolande and others. Leonard at his peak was a complete fighter with extremely high ring IQ, proven when well past his best, he traveled up to 160 and claimed the undisputed MW title from Hagler, one of the greatest victories in the 20th century. 10. Julio Cesar Chavez Like Charles and Armstrong before him, Chavez can be accredited as being a great fighter, one of the absolute elite in a number of different divisions. When talking about great lightweights and great light-welterweights, it is impossible to mention the great JCC. The greatest Mexican fighter ever and a warrior with underrated boxing skills. He lacked the panache of contemporaries such as Whitaker, Leonard and Taylor but he made up for it with an unquestionable heart, a great chin and power. Chavez knew how to wear down an opponent and when the time was right, he could seriously damage them. A definite top 10. 11. Sam "Boston Tar Baby" Langford 12. Archie "The Old Mongoose" Moore 13. Mickey "Toy Bulldog" Walker 14. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler 15. Harry "Pittsburgh Windmill" Greb 16. "Big" George Foreman 17. Jimmy "Mighty Atom" Wilde 18. "The Fighting Marine" Gene Tunney 19. "The Executioner" Bernard Hopkins 20. Joe "The Old Master" Gans 21. Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon 22. Joseph "Sandy" Saddler 23. "Pitssburgh Kid" Billy Conn 24. "Galveston Giant" Jack Johnson 25. Marcel "Casablanca Clouter" Cerdan 26. Dov-Ber Rosovsky AKA Barney Ross 27. Tommy "The Hitman" Hearns 28. "The Easton Assassin" Larry Holmes 29. Eder "O Galo Do Ouro" Jofre 30. "Smokin'" Joe Frazier 31. Manny "PacMan" Pacquiao 32. "Sweet Pea" Pernell Whitaker 33. Tony Canzoneri 34. "The Brockton Blockbuster" Rocky Marciano 35. Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles 36. Emile Griffith 37. Lennox "The Lion" Lewis 38. Jack "Manassa Mauler" Dempsey 39. Jake "Raging Bull" LaMotta 40. Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield 41. Oscar "Golden Boy" De La Hoya 42. "Baby Faced Assassin" Marco Antonio Barrera 43. Felix "Tito" Trinidad 44. "Pretty Boy" Floyd Mayweather 45. "Iron" Mike Tyson 46. Roy Jones Jr 47. Erik "El Terrible" Morales 48. "El Flaco Explosivo" Alexis Arguello 49. James "Lights Out" Toney 50. "The Champ" Salvador Sanchez A pretty good list but to not have Young Griffo in there anywhere is a crime and Les Darcy should be there too I feel but Griffos resume and the fact he is the greatest defensive genius of all time means he should be there... I believe he is top 20.... easy