10 years time Wladimir will be the GOAT!

The bold is just dumb and complete BS. Americans hate on Americans it has nothing to do with jealously. It has to do with people seeing the bums the Klits fight for who they are. The Klits fight in the absolute worse HW era known to date. So you can't sit here and try to convince people of how great they are when it is known they are fighting bums. Its not the Klits fault but its just the way it is. Just like people say we will never know how good certain fighters are cause they won't challenge themselves. We will never know how good or possibly the great the Klits are because of the terrible competition they face. That has nothing at all to do with jealously. Personally they are far from bums but I don't think they are great either. It's not that we see them for the bums they are, it's that we don't know who their opponents are at all. It's not so much the first time in history the HW division has been bad like this, it's more than this is the first time in history that most of the world class HW fighters aren't from America or don't fight here.

In fairness to both Bros. they use what they have!!! They have height and have learned to use it for both offense and defense, as they should. BUT! That being said they don't use their reach effectly to step into their opponents as often as they COULD! One of the reasons they don't move forward as often as they could is their balance, they are slow footed to a fault. Once they do make a move their hands are far out in front of their feet. It looks like no one has taught them to Fence, move forward with the lead foot being pushed by the back foot but never having the back foot be equal or pass the lead foot (step over) they do a terrible job at this! As for the leaning away (ala Ali) at 6'6" they can do it because their opponents they fight never apply pressure. I would want them (Bros)to lean back if I had a fighter against them but the fighter needs to persue them. You can't have your weight to far forward or backward if your in with quality fighters who push the issue!! The Brothers are bigger and stronger than the current opposition and their smart enough to use their advantages but that doesn't make them great fighters it makes them opportunistic and smart! Wlad has learned to gauge his reach against his opponents in the first round. He extends the left and gauges distance ala Kronk fighters do! Manny wanted a better left shoulder (pointed at the opponent) and BE TALL, Fence the guy untill you see your openings then pull the trigger! In his losses he was tentative and in the big boys division the most talented doesn't always win!! I think they're accomplished and have learned their lessons well, I think they could be alot better if they had more experienced trainers (manny not included) that could teach more technique as opposed to amatuer styled (upright Euro style) boxing! They need alot of movement work to gain more flexabilty but at their age theres not much chance of gaining that mobility! I'm not a Klitsko Hater......I don't hate any fighters, if they cheat I dismiss them from conversation but hate is a strong word when your at a distance and don't have real honest facts. Fans hate.......its their defensive nature to protect their favorites, I guess! HA! Wlad has become a good fighter who has come back from defeats with desire and the willingness to succeed but he's NOT a great fighter. Ray. Thank you so much for the technical insight!, that is the part of the game that intrigues me the most. Indeed, hate is a strong word, how can you hate somebody you don't even know?. Everybody has favorites and least favorites. To be honest the bros seem to be nice guys outside of the ring, and dedicated professionals considering that most fighters are a shadow of themselves at their age.

In fairness to both Bros. they use what they have!!! They have height and have learned to use it for both offense and defense, as they should. BUT! That being said they don't use their reach effectly to step into their opponents as often as they COULD! One of the reasons they don't move forward as often as they could is their balance, they are slow footed to a fault. Once they do make a move their hands are far out in front of their feet. It looks like no one has taught them to Fence, move forward with the lead foot being pushed by the back foot but never having the back foot be equal or pass the lead foot (step over) they do a terrible job at this! As for the leaning away (ala Ali) at 6'6" they can do it because their opponents they fight never apply pressure. I would want them (Bros)to lean back if I had a fighter against them but the fighter needs to persue them. You can't have your weight to far forward or backward if your in with quality fighters who push the issue!! The Brothers are bigger and stronger than the current opposition and their smart enough to use their advantages but that doesn't make them great fighters it makes them opportunistic and smart! Wlad has learned to gauge his reach against his opponents in the first round. He extends the left and gauges distance ala Kronk fighters do! Manny wanted a better left shoulder (pointed at the opponent) and BE TALL, Fence the guy untill you see your openings then pull the trigger! In his losses he was tentative and in the big boys division the most talented doesn't always win!! I think they're accomplished and have learned their lessons well, I think they could be alot better if they had more experienced trainers (manny not included) that could teach more technique as opposed to amatuer styled (upright Euro style) boxing! They need alot of movement work to gain more flexabilty but at their age theres not much chance of gaining that mobility! I'm not a Klitsko Hater......I don't hate any fighters, if they cheat I dismiss them from conversation but hate is a strong word when your at a distance and don't have real honest facts. Fans hate.......its their defensive nature to protect their favorites, I guess! HA! Wlad has become a good fighter who has come back from defeats with desire and the willingness to succeed but he's NOT a great fighter. Ray.

If your speaking to me I watched, very good!! Giving respect for what they've accomplished is one thing recognizing them or one as a "great fighter" is another! I'm not a "fan" or "hater" I'm a retired boxing manager, trainer, cornerman and gym owner so my thoughts come from actual experiences not watching fights and comparing fights and fighters. I know methods and techniques and most fans don't!! They only now how to compare records or common opponents, that doesn't cut it when evaluating talents!! Sorry! Ray. I agree with your opinion about Wlad,great accomplishments, but even I (a simple fan, with an average knowledge of the game) cannot fail to notice his awkwardness in certain (many?)situations. I can see him being slow handed, slow footed, predictable in most cases (pawing jab+right hand), limited head movement. His defense seems to rely on his height and , to an extent, on shifting his weight on the rear foot. Can you point out other flaws?. How do you rate his boxing skills, what is he good at?. And how can he be so successful, in spite of his limited set of boxing skills?.

I have my reservations. Even though his style is surely effective ,Wlad, in my opinion, won't be considered -the- GOAT, for several reasons, which have little to do with his undeniable effectiveness. 1) Charisma. To quote Mike Tyson " These two guys are gentlemen, people love drama". Fighters like Louis or Alì are known, not only because of their undeniable skills, but because of what they did rapresent. Louis was pictured as the guy who defeated the nazi. Alì as the guy who refused to go to Vietnam, who fought for civil rights (and for his trash-talk, too). 2) Skills I do not deny that Wlad's style is extremely effective, but regardless of the opposition he is neither spectacular nor a skilled technician. He doesn't dance like a butterfly (Alì), he does not he deliver spectacular combinations (Ala Tyson), doesn't have a trademark hook (Louis, Frazier) nor an amazing chin (Marciano, La Motta). He relies on height, reach, a pawing jab and a solid right hand. Minimalistic, effective, but not "complete" or "spectacular". People look at these things, for boxing is a sport, an entertainment. And it is after all people who made Alì "the greatest", his fame as much as his victories. 3) Opposition Another factor to consider. The rumble in the jungle or the thriller in Manila were followed not only because of Alì, but also because of his opponents. Close matches among the best fighters of the time, that is what made that era memorable. Nobody would remember these fights if the outcome was as predictable as most of Wlad's bouts. All my respect to Wlad though. It is impressive how he can use his (no offence)rather limited set of skills in such an effective fashion. And even though I do not deny the general weakness of the HW division, I also think that most of Wlad's opponents look worse than they normally would because of his style. Just my two cents!

H2H you're right, but based on era/resume/career, Joe Louis' resume is 100 times better than either Klitschko. Wlad and Vitali H2H, they lose to Ali/Foreman/Holmes/Holyfield/Lewis prime for prime. And fights with Liston, Tyson, and Bowe would be 50/50. Get of the crack!

The thing is though, Lennox beating a past prime-still good Holyfield is far better than beating Haye, Byrd, and Peter (this guy would not be a Top HW in most era's since the 50's/60's). Same thing with Bowe beating a prime Holyfield. Plus, Lennox was hurt by the fact that Bowe refused to fight him, in what would have been the biggest HW fight in the 90's along side Tyson-Holyfield, and one of the biggest since the Ali-Frazier/Foreman days in the 70's. I agree on this! But I can't see how is that relevant at all. If Wlad had Fraizer to fight against he might have prove himself even better. I actually think that Wlad is much more hurt by the available opposition than Lennox was. I agree on Holyfield comment as well but I also note that it wasn't the best version of Holyfiled and they had at least one close fight. And for those who say Haye is the Cruiseweight I also note that Haye is the bigger fighter (not better) than Holyfiled who also came from Cruiseweight. Holyfiled that fought Lennox would beat Haye that fought Wlad but it wouldn't be domination, rather a relatively comfortable win - less dominant than Wlad's.

Just when I thought I will read a nice clear post :twak: It amazed me how people become such cry - babies when you say something that might possibly be taken against their loves... :wank: Name 7 Lennox wins that are better than Wlad's over Haye. Just saying resume wise they are not that far away how some people want to see it. I certainly wouldn't agree on comment that Wlad's only advantage is his defence. He is definitely stronger puncher and most talented between the two (Steward's words). All the Wlad's losses happened when he was way far from his prime. At the time he developed Sanders and Purrity fights would make absolutely no sense. He revenged the lost over Brewster in the great fashion. How I see it Lennox best wins are : Bruno, Golota, Hollyfield, Rahman, Tyson and Vitali. For the last two I don't give him too much credit. Rahman is not even near HOF level. I give him all the credit for Golota, Bruno and Hollyfield. Wlad's best wins are : Byrd (x2), Peter, Haye. Lennox wins are still better but it is not that far Wlad couldn't reach or even pass it. Lennox was a fantastic fighter so is Wlad. Could we compare the two. Time will tell after Wlad retires. The thing is though, Lennox beating a past prime-still good Holyfield is far better than beating Haye, Byrd, and Peter (this guy would not be a Top HW in most era's since the 50's/60's). Same thing with Bowe beating a prime Holyfield. Plus, Lennox was hurt by the fact that Bowe refused to fight him, in what would have been the biggest HW fight in the 90's along side Tyson-Holyfield, and one of the biggest since the Ali-Frazier/Foreman days in the 70's.

Lewis avenged both those losses by brutal KO. Wlad didn't for whatever reason. Wlad has a very long way to go before he is considered with Lennox, for now you would do well to compare him to someone a bit lower in the echelon of great heavyweights. Wlads best wins are against Byrd and Haye, I think Lennox has at least 6-7 wins better than that. He has marquee wins. Wlad has none, he has only beaten SOME good fighters, and lost to some pretty average fighters, more average than the fighters Lewis lost to. In fact if you assess Lewis' resume it is just better across the board, the division was more competitive then, there was a pretty decent gatekeeper level in the 90's, then you had very good fighters like Bruno who held titles, and then the top tier guys. Plus - as someone has already mentioned if you just use your boxing brain (if you actually have one) and assess the fighters Lennox had more tools, they were similar to a certain extent but Lennox was far more versatile, stronger, better in that style. He was less stiff and didn't have to rely on holding to keep himself safe in the ring, he had a better chin too, better combinations, faster, more skill. I think the only thing Wlad does better is defence, and I would say it is to the detriment of his offence like he doesn't have right balance. Against a great fighter we would have found out how good that defence actually is. I don't want to be too negative on Wlad because he is great in how own right, but the comparisons with Lennox are silly and unfounded, Wlad doesn't stack up to Lennox in any way, not many if any heavyweights do. Just when I thought I will read a nice clear post :twak: It amazed me how people become such cry - babies when you say something that might possibly be taken against their loves... :wank: Name 7 Lennox wins that are better than Wlad's over Haye. Just saying resume wise they are not that far away how some people want to see it. I certainly wouldn't agree on comment that Wlad's only advantage is his defence. He is definitely stronger puncher and most talented between the two (Steward's words). All the Wlad's losses happened when he was way far from his prime. At the time he developed Sanders and Purrity fights would make absolutely no sense. He revenged the lost over Brewster in the great fashion. How I see it Lennox best wins are : Bruno, Golota, Hollyfield, Rahman, Tyson and Vitali. For the last two I don't give him too much credit. Rahman is not even near HOF level. I give him all the credit for Golota, Bruno and Hollyfield. Wlad's best wins are : Byrd (x2), Peter, Haye. Lennox wins are still better but it is not that far Wlad couldn't reach or even pass it. Lennox was a fantastic fighter so is Wlad. Could we compare the two. Time will tell after Wlad retires.

pulev will beat him.

no he wont. he will be remembered as a good fighter that had no real challenges. his best win is against a cruiserweight. you dont go down as the GOAT when your fighting guys like mormeck.

Chris Byrd is a future hall of famer, I think that is about the only one. Though its a bit hard for anybody to get in when there is two brothers who have dominated the division entirely for a decade. They have stopped fighters from becoming hall of famers with their dominance. Its unfortunate for the Klits the HW division is terrible these days. You only have to look at their opposition to see that. If any of their challengers were potential hall of famers, they would keep coming back, because they would be much better than the rest of the HW's. But we dont see that. Its a case of the best of the worst. To be considered a true great, you need opposition that shows how good you are. And the Klits havent had any. No great wins.

I think that Jimmy guy has hijacked Dan_Cov's username :lol1: I think Wlad will get his respect in time, but i really dont think he's anywhere nearly as good as Lennox and would have been severely murdered by him It's all debatable and because it cant and wont happen, it will never be proven, but, we all have opinions and thats just mine. Wlad is good, but no where nearly the best heavy weight i've seen, let alone all time

Who did Louis beat that was any better than Wlad's opponents? Don't just compare these guys names to each other. Actually go and watch these old Louis fights. People think these guys nowadays are bums just look at that era. Marcianos era is a joke too. Do you guys believe he would'nt be able to handle Patterson? the only guys that you can say would've beaten Wlad are Tyson, Lewis, Holyfield, Foreman, Ali, Bowe, Holmes and maybe Frazier. All these guys would have to be in there primes to be competetive. Don't get me wrong any heavyweight has a punchers chance. I personally don't think Tyson would've done **** to this prime Wlad. Who did a young Tyson fight that was anything like this prime Wlad? I think Homles would'nt have been a big enough puncher to keep Wlads jab off of him. I don't think Bowe had the conditioning and determination to beat Wlad. Lewis had a hell of a time with the slower and less skilled brother. Wlad might've just outboxed Lewis because it was Vitali's basic boxing and size that was bothering him. Holyfield would've had to get inside to do anything at all but there's a good chance he would be able to get inside. Ali never fought anyone as big and fast as Wlad that could also box. Wlad consistency of his style along with his attributes might've been hell for Ali if he tried to box. If Wlad survives 5 rounds with Foreman without getting battered to **** than he wins a decision. There is a good chance Wlad also gets an early KO against Foreman. Foreman never fought someone bigger and with the same type of power as himself. I honestly believe a prime Holyfield would've been a very bad fight for this Wlad but even so Wlad is still the better boxer. Just my opinion. Frazier probably could've given Wlad problems but his size would probably limit him and would've probably gotten toyed with. H2H you're right, but based on era/resume/career, Joe Louis' resume is 100 times better than either Klitschko. Wlad and Vitali H2H, they lose to Ali/Foreman/Holmes/Holyfield/Lewis prime for prime. And fights with Liston, Tyson, and Bowe would be 50/50.

This can't be serious????

wlad gets knocked out by most other atg heavies. i rank his vitali higher.

I have no doubt that Wlad won't lose any fights till he is 40 or older. Now it only depends how good the contenders (he will beat) will be after him . Etc if he beats Price in 2-3 years (Price prime or near prime) and then Price becomes a dominant champion Wlad will be regarded on pair with Lennox. Lewis beat tyson, holyfiled, tua and vitali. I can't really give him a credit for beating tyson or vitali (for tyson it is obvious why and for vitali the way how he did it and looked doing it). He dominated Tua (if he is regarded as HOF - not sure) and with Holyfiled he had at least one close fight. Wlad did beat some very good fighters and wasn't beaten in his prime (Lewis was). Lewis avenged both those losses by brutal KO. Wlad didn't for whatever reason. Wlad has a very long way to go before he is considered with Lennox, for now you would do well to compare him to someone a bit lower in the echelon of great heavyweights. Wlads best wins are against Byrd and Haye, I think Lennox has at least 6-7 wins better than that. He has marquee wins. Wlad has none, he has only beaten SOME good fighters, and lost to some pretty average fighters, more average than the fighters Lewis lost to. In fact if you assess Lewis' resume it is just better across the board, the division was more competitive then, there was a pretty decent gatekeeper level in the 90's, then you had very good fighters like Bruno who held titles, and then the top tier guys. Plus - as someone has already mentioned if you just use your boxing brain (if you actually have one) and assess the fighters Lennox had more tools, they were similar to a certain extent but Lennox was far more versatile, stronger, better in that style. He was less stiff and didn't have to rely on holding to keep himself safe in the ring, he had a better chin too, better combinations, faster, more skill. I think the only thing Wlad does better is defence, and I would say it is to the detriment of his offence like he doesn't have right balance. Against a great fighter we would have found out how good that defence actually is. I don't want to be too negative on Wlad because he is great in how own right, but the comparisons with Lennox are silly and unfounded, Wlad doesn't stack up to Lennox in any way, not many if any heavyweights do.

I have no doubt that Wlad won't lose any fights till he is 40 or older. Now it only depends how good the contenders (he will beat) will be after him . Etc if he beats Price in 2-3 years (Price prime or near prime) and then Price becomes a dominant champion Wlad will be regarded on pair with Lennox. Lewis beat tyson, holyfiled, tua and vitali. I can't really give him a credit for beating tyson or vitali (for tyson it is obvious why and for vitali the way how he did it and looked doing it). He dominated Tua (if he is regarded as HOF - not sure) and with Holyfiled he had at least one close fight. Wlad did beat some very good fighters and wasn't beaten in his prime (Lewis was).

What the Klitschko brothers have done has never been done before in any weight division in boxing. By the way, do yourself a favor and watch HBO's documentary "Klitschko"; mad respect! Wladimir will be inducted into Canastota, NY and will be remembered as one of the most dominating heavyweights of his time. He will be a GOAT when all is said and done. And what is that??2 brothers holding all the titles.....................well there has been 1 person to hold all the titles before and that is more impressive

If your speaking to me I watched, very good!! Giving respect for what they've accomplished is one thing recognizing them or one as a "great fighter" is another! I'm not a "fan" or "hater" I'm a retired boxing manager, trainer, cornerman and gym owner so my thoughts come from actual experiences not watching fights and comparing fights and fighters. I know methods and techniques and most fans don't!! They only now how to compare records or common opponents, that doesn't cut it when evaluating talents!! Sorry! Ray.