When Did Holding Become Big and Turn Into A Strategy?

again, the Jack Johnson thing is so overstated. Why do people keep going back that far? It wasnt a structured sport back then. The first fight in that video, they arent even in a ring. In another fight the dude intentionally tries to headbutt JJ on multiple occasions and no one cared. It was just a different sport with minimal amounts of structure. Also for the record, I want everyone to know that Im not taking sides or anything. I was just asking a question. Sometimes people try to group everything into a group but every situation is different. I see no problem at all with Mosley against Margarito. I see no problem with Hopkins, espically prime Hopkins who was old skool & gritty. However, there are other guys who hold non stop and they should be penalyzed. If holding is the #1 part of what you are doing then you should be penalyzed. Again, I hate some of the things the Klit's get away with as far as leaning on guys and using the stiff arm. The ref shouldnt allow that and those guys dont need to do that because they are already good without it. I watched both the Rios & JMM fights this weekend but I was doing something while watching both so I didnt focus on the fight a ton. I need to watch it back to make a judgement on it. I actually didnt even know that Abril was holding and I saw more of the JMM fight. I did like the shell he was using and I thought he looked good but I also thought that Rios looked a lil like Kirkland did against Molina. I thought both Rios & Kirk looked very sluggish from the start for whatever reason. Thats not taking anything away from the 2 opponents because I was the 1st one who talked up a Molina fight and I give boxers way more credit for there fighting styles then most guys do

holding is ok as long as you're using it as part of a combination Shane vs Tony is a good example lots of holding, but only after a sick series of punches was thrown holding doesn't mar a fight if it's used strategically it only mars a fight if it's used when a guy's in bitch mode

the holding is bad, but what's worse i think is the lack of skills and footwork these fighters who get hugged all night have

Manicini is remembering his fights, which had a lot to do with how he was matched. Holding has been big for at least this long:

I think people should recognize the difference between what Abril was doing and what Molina was doing. Molina was aggressively clinching and being physical while landing clear punches, Abril landed a few clean punches but for the most part was just stalling when he was holding Molinas holding was 100X worse then Abrils clinching, no matter how many punches he landed He would fling himself onto kirkland and wrap around him and hold for like 5-8 secs until the ref had to separate them. He was either punching or holding he entire fight

I think people should recognize the difference between what Abril was doing and what Molina was doing. Molina was aggressively clinching and being physical while landing clear punches, Abril landed a few clean punches but for the most part was just stalling when he was holding

Wladimir Klitschko says hello to everyone in this thread. If the guy who is pretty much the unified & undisputed champ can make a career out of it in heavyweight boxing, i guess others will probably think it's ok too.

Ali did he, all great boxers uses holding. Holding is a part of professional boxing.

"I say whats in my heart and yall call it a style" -DMX

you guys never watch old footage of boxing? hell, jack Johnson used to clinch all the time and obviously it was an effective strategy. clinching has always been apart of the game. instead of whining about clinching you should focus on the guys who have NO IDEA how to deal with a clincher. you bring up margarito, rios and kirkland. its their own damn fault that they don't know how to deal with it. throw an uppercut against Molina when he's lunging in to clinch, step to the fuching side, push them off, etc. rios and margarito are one dimensional they have no other game plan. blame them for being so limited. http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif

Holding/clinching has always been part of the game. It is up to the ref to enforce it. They were some ppl criticizing the ref in Floyd/Hatton fight cause they said that they broke them apart to quickly and Ricky couldn't do his fight. It has got down to the point that some fighters is a huge part of their game plan

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/gallery_images/photos/000/362/238/GYI0060329080_crop_450x500.jpg?1273013739 ^^^sorted... like sicko was sayin, theres ways around it.

The reason holding and clinching is big is because the referee or the commission lets it go and they do not enforce the rules. Holding is illegal in boxing, yet only a tiny percentage of refs actually warn or deduct points. Ricky Hatton was praised for it when he was basically grappling Kostya Tsyzu and won the fight. Hatton should have been deducted or DQ'd for so much holding. Holding is against the rules of boxing. Bernard Hopkins holds a lot, what they do is be slick about it. Richard Abril would hold Rios where the ref couldn't see it, its called a one hand under hold, he would grab rios with one arm and hit with his other, his holding arm would be away from the ref so the ref couldn't see it. Hopkins does this a lot. If boxing wants to be saved they need to enforce penalties for excessive holding and deducting points for it. Holding is killing the sport, the last great In fighting phone booth warfare fights I remember in recent years were the first Castillo-Corrales fight and the Izzy Vazquez vs. Rafa Marquez trilogy. Those guys fought inside without holding.

because the new Era of boxing is CRAP, they need all type of help and protection and they need to be matched up against the right opponent just to look good, it is only a handful of good boxers in this ERA anyway...but it is a lot of OVERRATED BUMS in boxing today Ali also used the Clinch a lot, especially against STRONG and POWERFUL fighters like Liston and Foreman well when I said "new era", I didnt mean this current era. I just meant when it got more structured. With that being said, Ive never been with the crowd of dissing current guys just to hype up guys from the past. Thats all people do. They look back at past guys like there Gods and diss current fighters. RJ, Hopkins, Toney, Winky, Floyd, JMM, Pac, MAB, EM, etc.... can fight in any era. I dont care what anyone says about that

They need to crack down on holding. What I don't get is. You get warned right away when you push but you can get away with holding for 12 rounds. if they allow fighters holding the fighter being held should be allowed to throw/slam the other fighter holding.

I don't mind the holding if you are good at it like Bernard Hopkins. Its bad holding like Abril or Dirrell

Jack Johnson made a career off it soooooo always?

Clinching was boring in the 1800s Boring throughout Jack Johnson's time Boring during Ali's time and definitely STILL boring today. Not sure why watching older boring fights would help anything.

Jack Johnson was from a way different era though. I mean the sport itself was totally different so I wouldn't go back that far to count it. It wasn't nearly as structured as the new era of boxing because the new Era of boxing is CRAP, they need all type of help and protection and they need to be matched up against the right opponent just to look good, it is only a handful of good boxers in this ERA anyway...but it is a lot of OVERRATED BUMS in boxing today Ali also used the Clinch a lot, especially against STRONG and POWERFUL fighters like Liston and Foreman

25years ago, in Hagler vs Leonard, they made a big deal about Ray holding. Even Hagler's corner can be heard yelling about Ray fighting like a *****. But, compared to what goes on today, that was nothing. I don't think it would even be mentioned. Clearly our levels of tolerance have changed. Everyone is so caught up in backing a winner that they don't care about what the guy does to get there.