klitschko Vs Any American = Mismatch

American athletes today are generally bigger across all sports than their historical counterparts. . There've been big guys in the NBA for ages, even back in the 70s. Why weren't they boxing then? They certainly weren't lumbering and slow. Where was this six foot nine American ATG who'd now be playing in the NBA, eh? And? I'm not claiming that every single great heavyweight also has to be a great athlete. But it certainly helps. See above. Plus Galento and Simon were never great heavyweights, were they? And Willard won his title because Jack Johnson finally got old more than anything. When he stepped in against an elite, prime fighter in Dempsey he got exposed and destroyed. I pointed them out because they were contenders at one point and fought for the heavyweight title, thus they were in some measure representative of their eras. That's what this argument is about, eras, not just the top 1%. And the fact of the matter is that very few eras of HW boxing have ever been filled with top class athletic talent outside the champs.

- At no stage in boxing's history has the US ever had champions the size and athleticism of guys in the NBA today. American athletes today are generally bigger across all sports than their historical counterparts. . - At no time would Frazier have ever made it into the NFL. And? I'm not claiming that every single great heavyweight also has to be a great athlete. But it certainly helps. - Under no circumstances could men like Tony Galento, Abe Simon or Jess Willard ever be considered some of America's best athletes. See above. Plus Galento and Simon were never great heavyweights, were they? And Willard won his title because Jack Johnson finally got old more than anything. When he stepped in against an elite, prime fighter in Dempsey he got exposed and destroyed.

Just imagine if some of these NBA dudes chose boxing. http://i43.tinypic.com/34y8k2g.jpg http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/461/odom2.jpg (And Odom is on the slim side when compared to his piers.)

America's best athletes get funneled into football, basketball, and baseball since they are kids. If boxing was as popular as it was back in the day (when it rivaled baseball as the national pasttime) those athletes would be funneled into boxing instead. That's just a fact. And it's the reason why you see a dwindling number of American boxers at ANY weight, not just heavyweight. Say something we haven't heard a billion times before. - At no stage in boxing's history has the US ever had champions the size and athleticism of guys in the NBA today. - At no time would Frazier have ever made it into the NFL. - Under no circumstances could men like Tony Galento, Abe Simon or Jess Willard ever be considered some of America's best athletes. Those last two aren't 'facts' but I dare you to argue against them.

America's best athletes get funneled into football, basketball, and baseball since they are kids. If boxing was as popular as it was back in the day (when it rivaled baseball as the national pasttime) those athletes would be funneled into boxing instead. That's just a fact. And it's the reason why you see a dwindling number of American boxers at ANY weight, not just heavyweight. Just imagine if some of these NBA dudes chose boxing. http://i43.tinypic.com/34y8k2g.jpg http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/461/odom2.jpg (And Odom is on the slim side when compared to his piers.)

America's best athletes get funneled into football, basketball, and baseball since they are kids. If boxing was as popular as it was back in the day (when it rivaled baseball as the national pasttime) those athletes would be funneled into boxing instead. That's just a fact. And it's the reason why you see a dwindling number of American boxers at ANY weight, not just heavyweight.

no, he's not. but he's certainly not where he is because of boxing craft. he does have things going for him. i do think mitchell is more talented than chambers, especially as a HW, but again, mitchell is not a unique talent in the least in football. there are plenty of bigger and stronger and faster guys chambers is a very good boxer, and very sharp. much more so than mitchell. mitchell has only been boxing since 2006 and turned pro with two years of experience and chambers has been a pro since 2000 i'm not saying seth mitchell would become muhammad ali if he boxed when he was 10, but that' gulf in experience cannot be overstated Mitchell's obviously the greater talent in football, but that's irrelevant here. As far as talent in the boxing ring goes I think it's clear Chambers has more of it. He's obviously not a bigger puncher, but then was Tua a more talented heavy than Byrd? Chambers has the sort of talent that's pretty evident even early on in one's career. Mitchell isn't untalented, but he's what 25 fights into his career now? What you see is more or less what you're ever gonna get, and nothing in his performances suggests that he has anywhere near the ring craft, sharpness of hand and mind and general boxing savvy that Chambers possesses. Of course he doesn't need to given his equaliser, his power. Chambers's general talent gets overlooked a lot. He's a small, light fisted, stalking counter puncher who fights out of a high guard and relies of relatively low output to get the job done. That takes major talent. He made a still sharp Povetkin look like an amateur, ruined a pretty good fighter in Brock, outpointed the giant (and then undefeated) Dimitrenko... in Germany! The guy's easily the most talented heavy in the division today, outside of Wlad, and he accomplished most of this whilst still in his mid to late twenties. A damn good fighter.

maybe he Wlad should fight holyfield, grant and lawrence in one 12 rounder, 4 rounds each. proabaly knock them all out :rofl: No one can beat Wlad right now.

Some people are biased with their opinions I also see some good points as well, yeh there could be better American heavyweight Boxers but also Europeans have been more focused on Boxing as well. Vitali and Wladimir are great athletes and great fighters who work very hard so that's mainly why they are so successful

And Mitchell is? Come on. Even taking into account the vast gulf in experience, it's clear as day that Chambers is the sharper, quicker and more fluid fighter. Mitchell's a big body with decent speed, above average power, plodding feet and reasonable combination punching ability. He's not untalented, but he's crude as a caveman compared to Chambers, again even taking into account the experience differential. Look at some of Eddie's older fights when he was still making a name for himself. He won fights more or less on talent alone, because he lacked any sort of punching power. Mitchell at least has the benefit of power to hide his deficiencies. no, he's not. but he's certainly not where he is because of boxing craft. he does have things going for him. i do think mitchell is more talented than chambers, especially as a HW, but again, mitchell is not a unique talent in the least in football. there are plenty of bigger and stronger and faster guys chambers is a very good boxer, and very sharp. much more so than mitchell. mitchell has only been boxing since 2006 and turned pro with two years of experience and chambers has been a pro since 2000 i'm not saying seth mitchell would become muhammad ali if he boxed when he was 10, but that' gulf in experience cannot be overstated

chambers isnt a horrible HW and i like him but he's nowhere near a true talent. And Mitchell is? Come on. Even taking into account the vast gulf in experience, it's clear as day that Chambers is the sharper, quicker and more fluid fighter. Mitchell's a big body with decent speed, above average power, plodding feet and reasonable combination punching ability. He's not untalented, but he's crude as a caveman compared to Chambers, again even taking into account the experience differential. Look at some of Eddie's older fights when he was still making a name for himself. He won fights more or less on talent alone, because he lacked any sort of punching power. Mitchell at least has the benefit of power to hide his deficiencies.

marciano ran as much as 12 miles a day to keep his weight down in the heart of training. frame wise he was a small HW but he carried a lot of muscle. i think if he ate (and ate and ate) and trained like chambers he'd be at least that size he also had an ATG chin and serious punching power. and one of the best gas tanks ever. if chambers ran like that i think he'd be smaller than marciano. he doesnt, so i'm only guessing obviously. i think you might have a LHW under all of that. and dempsey was likewise a large dude who trained like crazy to keep his weight low, instead of adding it on like chambers. he's an overrated HW but he was a knockout puncher and had a brutal offense. i dont think either man is much larger than chambers. its hard to tell. eddie has a lot of loose skin covering his bones. i think he's a LHW or CW. he was less than 210 against klitschko and he still had at least 20 lbs to lose. probably more. the guy clearly eats too much. if the rock ate like that he'd be 200+ dempsey and marciano are likewise modern CW, but could easily fight at HW today obviously. i also think if they did it correctly they could benefit from some different training and food and put on 5 good lbs or so. i am not huge on dempsey but i have little doubt that he would beat everybody not named klitschko. marciano might have a shot against wladimir with the right ref and 15 rounds. there's a chance that wladimir is just too strong and drapes a shoulder and two arms over him every time he gets close and whitewashes him, but i'm getting off track. I believe I read somewhere (don't ask me where, it might have been from another poster or a quote from the man himself) that Marciano felt sluggish at anything above about 190lb, that he was a natural 200lbers who felt at his best at 185. That's the Rock though, and man whose success relied on non-stop aggression and an insane workrate. Chambers's style is far less intensive and whilst I agree that he carries a little blubber, I can't see him having any radically better success were to drop ten, twenty pounds any more than Marciano would become radically better adding them. Chambers is chunky, but he isn't morbidly obese, or jiggling with jelly rolls and breasts like Arreola. He's a naturally thickset dude with a short neck and barrell shaped torso. Sometimes thickness like that can aid a fighter's general punch resistance and stability, especially in the case of a relatively stationary HW like Eddie. This isn't to say that Chambers wouldn't become a better fighter were he to lose a few pounds round the midsection (his performance was noticeably worse when he was in the mid 220s for instance), but it's not an absolutely clear cut thing either. http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/2095/Wladimir-Klitschko-Eddie-Chambers42.jpg This is Chambers at 210. A 200lb Chambers might be faster but lacking in punching power, a sub 200lb Chambers might be faster still but liable to get manhandled all over the place. 210 seems to be a good weight for him that allows him to compete against the bigger men in the sport whilst retaining speed and sharpness. That's just my guess though. My point is, when you get to a certain weight lighter isn't always better. It all depends on your style and physical attributes, as well as what weight you feel 'comfortable' at. Marciano and Dempsey could well be bigger given modern, ahem... supplements. But would it really be that useful to them to have an added ten twenty pounds lean muscle mass added to their frames? I can't see it.

Right. Inate potential. Still, not sure I'd agree with you that Mitchell has more than Chambers. Chambers is a very smart guy who seems to be able to absorb and utilise a lot of what he's taught into an effective method of fighting that plays to his advanatages, a large part in what makes a fighter what he is. Mitchell has strength and a more aggressive mindset, but he hasn't displayed anything as yet that convinces me that he's made of far better moulding clay than Chambers. I'm open to be convinced otherwise of course. This is a curious comment. Were Dempsey and Marciano heavyweights? Would they be unable to compete against modern heavyweights today? Thing is "raw talent" is really difficult to evaluate. To a large degree (as regards boxing anyway) raw talent is a mental skill, an ability to absorb and assimilate what you learn in the gym and apply to your own strengths and weaknesses, much as Chambers has done. Mitchell might well be physically faster and stronger than Chambers, but that means little if he can't absorb the teachings of his trainers into a winning gameplan. Jermaine Taylor is an excellent example of an athlete who simply couldn't become a really great boxer because he lacked the mental flexibility to adapt himself to the nuances of the sport. He's not the only one, and he at least got a portion of the limelight. But how many didn't? Boxing is littered with great athletes who never reached the top because they lacked in some other fundamental part of the game which other less physically talented men possessed. That's why all this talk of NFL uber-athletes pisses me off so much. Boxing isn't athletics, it's a complex sport in which every aspect of your mental and physical makeup is put to the ultimate test. It's why I love the sport in its raw essence. It's the truthfinder. marciano ran as much as 12 miles a day to keep his weight down in the heart of training. frame wise he was a small HW but he carried a lot of muscle. i think if he ate (and ate and ate) and trained like chambers he'd be at least that size he also had an ATG chin and serious punching power. and one of the best gas tanks ever. if chambers ran like that i think he'd be smaller than marciano. he doesnt, so i'm only guessing obviously. i think you might have a LHW under all of that. and dempsey was likewise a large dude who trained like crazy to keep his weight low, instead of adding it on like chambers. he's an overrated HW but he was a knockout puncher and had a brutal offense. i dont think either man is much larger than chambers. its hard to tell. eddie has a lot of loose skin covering his bones. i think he's a LHW or CW. he was less than 210 against klitschko and he still had at least 20 lbs to lose. probably more. the guy clearly eats too much. if the rock ate like that he'd be 200+ dempsey and marciano are likewise modern CW, but could easily fight at HW today obviously. i also think if they did it correctly they could benefit from some different training and food and put on 5 good lbs or so. i am not huge on dempsey but i have little doubt that he would beat everybody not named klitschko. marciano might have a shot against wladimir with the right ref and 15 rounds. there's a chance that wladimir is just too strong and drapes a shoulder and two arms over him every time he gets close and whitewashes him, but i'm getting off track. dont get me wrong, eddie is big enough to be a top 10 HW and talented enough being bigger is an advantage. i'm not talking about bodybuiders, or 350 lb walls. i'm talking about athletic dudes with huge bones that fill out into their 20's and into their early 30's. ( i'll get some pictures when i've got a stretch of time but i've got to run soon ) you rarely see any truly gigantic men with real athletic quality. there are two boxing today. both klitschkos. and they are hall of famers i'm not saying these guys are pre-ordained to be great fighters, but there are other truly gigantic men with as much athletic quality as the klitschkos playing football and basketball in the states. many are much bigger. chambers isnt a horrible HW and i like him but he's nowhere near a true talent. we may have a completely different definition of athletic quality or talent, which is fine running jumping swimming climbing trees natural athletic qualities are what i'm looking for/talking about talent is talent in my opinion. strength, speed, dexterity, durability and conditioning. in no order. a complete and adaptable athlete. if you have true athletic talent every sport comes easy to you. some will come easier than others, obviously.

with a bit more experience mitchell may give him a fight but other than that yeah wlad owns them all

mormeck was an honorary american for his fight against klitschko. Landing 3 punches, throwing about 5, barely being able to breathe after 2 rounds. He did us proud. Just imagine that Mormeck was James Toney who hit the weights and decided to speak in a French accent, because he's that punch drunk.

mormeck was an honorary american for his fight against klitschko. Landing 3 punches, throwing about 5, barely being able to breathe after 2 rounds. He did us proud.

but he's a football reject... his inability to play football is the reason why he is boxing. his story is inevitably based in his rejection from football via his injuries. he fought ten times as an amateur and 80 rounds pro. this kid grew up playing football, not boxing. dont act like that's not exactly what he is. he's an athlete who boxes. he's only making his way to the top because of a serious lack of talent in the division, not his boxing abilities. There's a whole long list of boxers who tumbled into the sport from something else, a life of crime mainly. Very few kids ever put on the gloves with the genuinely lifelong intention of becoming a top class boxer. It just doesn't really happen. So what that Mitchell came to boxing from a football background? Martinez came to boxing from a soccer and cycling background. Mercer came to boxing from a military background. Hopkins came to boxing from prison. Mitchell is not making his way up the ladder by being athletically so much better than everyone else. He's getting there because he's willing to put in the work and listen to his trainers in the gym and in the ring. In other words, he's doing what many good prospects do. You're doing Mitchell a massive disfavour if you're only ever going to bring up his football background from now on, as though that's the root of all his success.

Lol why are you trolling with holyfield insults you fuk. you do realize Holyfield is a ancient dinosaur rite? Older then a T REX? A Prime Holyfield despite being outsizes and out muscled will send Wlad to the hospital. Also the vast majority of america's top athletes ARE in the nba and NFL. It is what it is. You think if Lebron James started doing boxing at age 10 he can't knock out the K BROS . or if kobe bryant dedicated himself to boxing the way he did to basketball at a early age he won't be at least as great as either k bros? Prime Ray Lewis boxing version KO K2 This is the sort of gibbering imbecility that really gets my goat up. So a star in another sport requiring totally different skills and attributes automatically translates into a star in boxing? Soccer is by far the most popular athletic sport in the world. Does Lionel Messi translate into the ultimate NFL quarterback? Golf isn't as physically demanding as boxing. Would Mayweather have become the greatest golfer that's ever lived? Take your two braincells and rub them together till they ignite into something resembling an intelligent thought. Thanks.

already beaten thompson arreola already beaten (and does not deserve remact after loss to adamek) Michael Grant - Glass Chin Seth Mitchell - who knpws, but right now too green. maybe he Wlad should fight holyfield, grant and lawrence in one 12 rounder, 4 rounds each. proabaly knock them all out :lol1::lol1:

i'm talking about talent as a HW. that which you bring with you to the sport. the stuff you are born with and are not taught. talent. Right. Inate potential. Still, not sure I'd agree with you that Mitchell has more than Chambers. Chambers is a very smart guy who seems to be able to absorb and utilise a lot of what he's taught into an effective method of fighting that plays to his advanatages, a large part in what makes a fighter what he is. Mitchell has strength and a more aggressive mindset, but he hasn't displayed anything as yet that convinces me that he's made of far better moulding clay than Chambers. I'm open to be convinced otherwise of course. mitchell has more of it than chambers. chambers isnt even a HW. if he were in the condition of top ten guys from bygone, 15 round eras he'd weigh in the high 180's. This is a curious comment. Were Dempsey and Marciano heavyweights? Would they be unable to compete against modern heavyweights today? of couse chambers is going to be the crisper boxer with a developed skill set. he's been boxing since he was a kid. i'm talking about raw talent. Thing is "raw talent" is really difficult to evaluate. To a large degree (as regards boxing anyway) raw talent is a mental skill, an ability to absorb and assimilate what you learn in the gym and apply to your own strengths and weaknesses, much as Chambers has done. Mitchell might well be physically faster and stronger than Chambers, but that means little if he can't absorb the teachings of his trainers into a winning gameplan. Jermaine Taylor is an excellent example of an athlete who simply couldn't become a really great boxer because he lacked the mental flexibility to adapt himself to the nuances of the sport. He's not the only one, and he at least got a portion of the limelight. But how many didn't? Boxing is littered with great athletes who never reached the top because they lacked in some other fundamental part of the game which other less physically talented men possessed. That's why all this talk of NFL uber-athletes pisses me off so much. Boxing isn't athletics, it's a complex sport in which every aspect of your mental and physical makeup is put to the ultimate test. It's why I love the sport in its raw essence. It's the truthfinder.