If Margarito did use illegal wraps in the first fight,

What are you talking about? According to Edgard, plaster turns to powder when hit by a boxer. Which one is it fellas. Is plaster breaking bones or turning into powder? You guys sound like Team Margarito; just can't get it together. Hello there......I was NOT giving expert opinion and shouldn't be quoted as if I am. I thought that it was positively proven through existing documentation, that the experiment I discussed was the one conducted by Cleveland Williams under the auspices of Boxing Illustrated. It done to prove or disprove Jack "Doc" Kearns' claims in his just published book, that he'd doctored Jack Dempseys wraps for his Willard fight. You SAID on this thread earlier, that you actually HAD a copy of the Boxing Illustrated issue with the article which described the experiment, and corrected me on the date. I suggested that you had just looked up the internet and you said that you not only had the magazine but you were particularly interested in this fight and frequently referred to it, so remembered the facts very well. However I still suspect that you don't have the magazine but looked up the internet. No matter, not important. I myself have this magazine copy, as well as many years of Illustrated and RING and other boxing magazines, a whole banana box load full to the top probably a couple of hundred. But I went on my memory of nearly 50 years ago and erred on the date. So why quote me as an expert when you KNEW that all I was doing, was reporting the experiment as described by Boxing Illustrated. I know a fair bit about boxing and boxers and was taught by top fighters, champions. And a lot more. Don't know much about being bandaged as we didn't have the luxury of wasting good bandages for every spar and fight. We carried our own bandages, which we used to rewash. Mine weren't gauze but crepe, like a sort of stretch bandage you'd use on a sprained ankle. Rules were more "flexible" then, and the main motto was, win or lose, good sportsmanship. With all the money in boxing those days are gone for ever. Like a lot more good things.

Genius is an emotional wreck if you dont agree with him or suck his balls he acts like a *****. The story about Oscar and Tony sparring is the truth actually if you do some research at one point they were good friends and Tony was in one of Oscars Music videos which I believe you can find on youtube

They do not and will not understand this because they choose to make their mind up with out using any type of logic or reason. They hated Margarito long before the Cotto fight, and when this went down with Mosley these guys were happy, both Cotto fans and Flomos. Cotto fans had found themselves a valid excuse, while Flomos who have heard **** from Tony fans about Floyd ducking suddenly had a relevant arguement. Regardless of what happend between Floyd and Tony and between Tony and Miguel, what I am looking at is the evidence or lack there of, I believe the commission over reacted because of the type of scene Nazim Richardson made there. in addition GBP was the people behind the fight and doing the promotion and if you havent heard, Oscar did go to Azteca Boxing to spar for his bout with Vargas and tried to show up Margarito in sparring only to find Margarito was no punk, and Margarito beat him down and dropped him with a body shot... Oscar since has been very bitter towards Margarito who basically embarrassed Oscar in front of everybody at the gym, and Oscar has very close ties with the commission here in California I agree with just about everything you say, although I didn't know about Oscar sparring with Margarito. But I can believe that a very "temperamental" oddly behaved guy like Oscar could very well hold a grudge. I firmly believe that all the evidence points against margarito having anything to do with doctored wraps, and also, that the disputed pad itself, was only disputed because it was used, there was nothing else proven wrong with it. If it could have been shown there was, it wouldn't have just been a minor infraction, but a criminal court case and a gaol sentence. That there wasn't is proof enough ev There's hardly any point with even differing with some of these guys because, before you know it, you'll be loaded down with heavy insults and obscenities, and into a fight, which was not why you posted in the first place. Difference of opinion is common, but it needs to be kept friendly, and respectful of each other. Otherwise you end up very much to my mind, like a schoolyard scuffle. Who wants that. We come on here to discuss boxing, fighters, give and listen to informed opinions, to learn and teach, to have a pleasant experience. Unfortunately the anonymity of the internet has created a nation of keyboard warriors, mostly very ignorant and ill informed, who don't know it. There's nothing to be done about them. And a huge group has suddenly appeared from nowhere who know just about nothing except the last opinion they heard. You've actually been lucky with Boxing Genius. He seems to be a serious guy who knows boxing, but seems a bit intolerant, speculates a bit too much and seems to deeply dislike Margarito. There are others far worse.

You weren't there for Margarito either, but I don't see that stopping you. See, this is a perfect example of you seeing what you want and commenting on what you want. Don't run away now. Which one is it. Is plaster breaking bones or breaking itself? Edgar, is plaster breaking bones or breaking itself. :popcorn: As I just posted below, actually the very last post, plaster put on wraps would crumble before any bone would break, unless of course the punch was so hard and hit in exactly the right spot, that the rib would fracture anyway. A rib, supposedly is the weakest major bone in the body. Plaster itself on a wrap couldn't possibly stand up to any heavy punching, it would crack and crumble almost at once. The layer, on the wraps could only be very thin, and useless as increasing punching power. The experiment proved it. And also it's just too documented and logical not to be true. There have been many accusations of plastered wraps but not one that I ever heard of which was actually found, although I have not seen everything. The major accusation was the Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard fight, and the experiment was to and DID, effectively debunk this as a well travelled myth.

I have to chip in here. The report was not "supposedly". The experiment DID happen and was given a very good test. Cleveland Williams was the boxer who punched the heavy bag 4 times and said he felt it crumble after the first punch. When the gloves were taken off, it was reported that the Plaster-of- Paris had crumbled into harmless fragments. It was devious for you to say "supposedly", as it was you who corrected my wrong date, and said you had the Boxing Illustrated copy the report was in. I'm sure this test can be found on the internet, There was a large collection of experts there, who were unaninous in their decision that Doc Kearns was lying and that plastered bandages couldn't possibly hold up to any kind of punching. Plaster-of-Paris would need to be built up (very much like they do with a broken leg cast) with successive painted on layers. It would be bulky, and immediately noticeable, and would have to be over the knuckles, like a knuckleduster. So I don't see how anything as hard as a rib could be damaged by the kind of wraps which would need to doctored without being noticed.. There's loads of times that bones have been fractured, and there has been no fist enhancement. They do not and will not understand this because they choose to make their mind up with out using any type of logic or reason. They hated Margarito long before the Cotto fight, and when this went down with Mosley these guys were happy, both Cotto fans and Flomos. Cotto fans had found themselves a valid excuse, while Flomos who have heard **** from Tony fans about Floyd ducking suddenly had a relevant arguement. Regardless of what happend between Floyd and Tony and between Tony and Miguel, what I am looking at is the evidence or lack there of, I believe the commission over reacted because of the type of scene Nazim Richardson made there. in addition GBP was the people behind the fight and doing the promotion and if you havent heard, Oscar did go to Azteca Boxing to spar for his bout with Vargas and tried to show up Margarito in sparring only to find Margarito was no punk, and Margarito beat him down and dropped him with a body shot... Oscar since has been very bitter towards Margarito who basically embarrassed Oscar in front of everybody at the gym, and Oscar has very close ties with the commission here in California

For someone to attack other posters for not reading, you sure are guilty of your own claims. Let me answer it for you. No Dr. Zooka. Read Edgard's article regarding plaster. You will find that supposedly when Cleveland Williams did some kind of experiment, he had plaster on his gloves and crumbled the plaster when he struck the bag. I'm not talking about flakes as you were trying to downplay the claim. I'm talking about desinergrating the plaster like some alien spacegun from a scene in Star Trek. If this is true, then plaster of paris should be a non factor in the Resto case, right? I have to chip in here. The report was not "supposedly". The experiment DID happen and was given a very good test. Cleveland Williams was the boxer who punched the heavy bag 4 times and said he felt it crumble after the first punch. When the gloves were taken off, it was reported that the Plaster-of- Paris had crumbled into harmless fragments. It was devious for you to say "supposedly", as it was you who corrected my wrong date, and said you had the Boxing Illustrated copy the report was in. I'm sure this test can be found on the internet, There was a large collection of experts there, who were unaninous in their decision that Doc Kearns was lying and that plastered bandages couldn't possibly hold up to any kind of punching. Plaster-of-Paris would need to be built up (very much like they do with a broken leg cast) with successive painted on layers. It would be bulky, and immediately noticeable, and would have to be over the knuckles, like a knuckleduster. So I don't see how anything as hard as a rib could be damaged by the kind of wraps which would need to doctored without being noticed.. There's loads of times that bones have been fractured, and there has been no fist enhancement.

Exactly, this is the 3rd time you've ducked one of my questions in this thread and answered something completely different. I take that as you waving the white flag. Thanks Dr. Zooka, I accept your compliment. Case closed. My duty is done here. Ohh okay sir claim false victory, just like your 10k bet on Floyd stopping Ortiz in the 4th which you have no proof of

Ohh Gee Sorry little fella I aint saying what you want to hear, I can tell you thats a marker cus my ****ing son is fighting nearly every saturday his wraps get signed off and thats exactly what it looks like when a sharpie makes contact with surgical gauze. My point is very simple, if you havent had your hands wrapped before going into a fight how the **** do you know? I have a mind of my own, and common sense. I don't need to hear anything from a nuthugger of Marg. Today is a marker, yesterday was a black threat from a shirt, tomorrow it will be a birth mark from Marg's hand. You have no credibility, it's excuse after excuse.:wave:

Since you said these are your "opinions", I'll let it go peacefully. Although, I don't think too highly of them, I'll let it go and leave it at that. PS: The degrading didn't start until you had the "genius" jokes. But hey, it's cool man. It's Edgarg, not edgard. Don't exaggerate, I though we'd finished with trying to drag each other's name in the mud. it isn't "according to edgard" it's according to the test carried out by Hugh Benbow and his fighter Cleveland Williams, in collaboration with Boxing illustrated who gave a full report on the test, as you properly corrected my date, in 1964. And it didn't turn to "powder" it crumbled to tiny fragments. But the test disproved the plaster bandages supposedly used by Jack Dempsey to beat Jess Willard.....that is according to a book written by his manager Jack Doc" Kears. He was trying to raise interest in the book, He was broke, but was a proven notorious liar. Anyway, all the experts were unanimous that it just couldn't be done, and Williams said he felt the wraps crumble after the first punch. He punched a bag 4 times total. About the "genius" jokes, sorry, I was being mildly sarcastic,....I mean...what a name to chose no matter how much you know......

I never said I was an expert, I was just wondering why since Saturday, Margs fans have come up with a million excuses for the hole in the wraps, which by the way, no matter how you slice it, it is a hole. The ones talking about the marker, threat, sulfar and all the other bull are the Marg fans, the ones that seem to have an excuse about everything and are the experts on markers, threat, sufar, pictures and everything else. Get for real. Ohh Gee Sorry little fella I aint saying what you want to hear, I can tell you thats a marker cus my ****ing son is fighting nearly every saturday his wraps get signed off and thats exactly what it looks like when a sharpie makes contact with surgical gauze. My point is very simple, if you havent had your hands wrapped before going into a fight how the **** do you know?

You weren't there for Margarito either, but I don't see that stopping you. See, this is a perfect example of you seeing what you want and commenting on what you want. Don't run away now. Which one is it. Is plaster breaking bones or breaking itself? Edgar, is plaster breaking bones or breaking itself. :popcorn: I saw the results from the cotto fight, and from the mosley bout he didnt get to use those pads, neither fight showed ribs being busted sever swelling none of that in fact cotto swelled up twice as much against Manny did Manny use loaded wraps? Now regarding the evidence, all I can go on is what we have been told and what they found, along with what information is out there, the elements found were two elements Sulfur and Calcium thats been reported. Research what is in plaster paris you will find Calcium Sulfate which is one element not two and its not the same as Sulfur and Calcium. Mosleys story is that Nazim took the pad into their dressing room, who is to say that they didnt plant **** on it while it was out of their presence?

Thats what he is saying but that doesnt mean its the truth, listen if more of you so called experts actually got your sorry asses to the gym and trained for a bit and actually used surgical gauze to work out you would know what that is I can tell you just by looking, the picture that has been around for three years was what ****ed me up cus from that angle I couldnt tell you what it was, But HBO releasing this footage is a huge help to solve this. Once seeing that I am now further convinced that Margarito has been railroaded here. I never said I was an expert, I was just wondering why since Saturday, Margs fans have come up with a million excuses for the hole in the wraps, which by the way, no matter how you slice it, it is a hole. The ones talking about the marker, threat, sulfar and all the other bull are the Marg fans, the ones that seem to have an excuse about everything and are the experts on markers, threat, sufar, pictures and everything else. Get for real.

No, don't try to cop out now. Read the article yourself Dr. Zooka. It's on page 8 or something. You guys have conflicting stories and it's simple as that. Team Margarito all over again. I have one guy saying Plaster breaks bones (Dr. Zooka) and I have another claiming plaster is harmless and would break/crumble during hard punches (Edgard). Face the facts. Now which one is it Dr. Zooka, is plaster breaking bones or breaking itself? I'll wait. I can not speak on that because I was not there when that "experiment" was conducted what I can say is Collins had busted ribs from the resto fight.

For someone to attack other posters for not reading, you sure are guilty of your own claims. Let me answer it for you. No Dr. Zooka. Read Edgard's article regarding plaster. You will find that supposedly when Cleveland Williams did some kind of experiment, he had plaster on his gloves and crumbled the plaster when he struck the bag. I'm not talking about flakes as you were trying to downplay the claim. I'm talking about desinergrating the plaster like some alien spacegun from a scene in Star Trek. If this is true, then plaster of paris should be a non factor in the Resto case, right? Dude, I think you are downplaying what he is saying in a sarcastic fourth grade kind of way...

Did it ever cross your mind that the reason Margarito didn't fight for a year is because he just got smashed by Mosley? It takes time to recover from beatings, which is perfectly normal. I think the commission suspends fighters that win their bout for 6 months, let alone someone that took a beating. You making Margarito out to be this saint honoring the commission is comical. It had nothing to do with Margarito being honorable. If he was being honorable, then he wouldn't be fighting at all. But hey, why should he even have to be honorable, when according to you, he did nothing wrong in the first place. I mean hey, plaster turns into powder when you punch right? Yeah, you're right, let's quit it. Just a quick comment.Margarito is an old school fighter in the true sense of the word, very much reminds me in a way, of my last favourite fighter Gaspar Ortega. He took a lot of punishment from Mosley, true, but not enough to keep him from fighting for about a little less I think. than a year and a half. He takes unbelievable punshment in nearly every fight, even the ones he wins, but is one of those old time guys who can take it and come back time after time. He's one of the very few.

What are you talking about? According to Edgard, plaster turns to powder when hit by a boxer. Which one is it fellas. Is plaster breaking bones or turning into powder? You guys sound like Team Margarito; just can't get it together. You actually may have first hand experience in this cus I am sure your mom pissed you off at one point in which you hit the wall in your house. which it does crack and will leave a powder like substance. However if its in a wrap its going to break some ribs no? it did with Collins.... plaster does crack it does flake and your point is what?

Without having an argument about it, allow me to point out that something which was classed as illegal had already been done, and they "caught" the perpetrator(s). Anyway, on another point, a sentence depends, in my opinion, on the gravity of the offense, on the instructions given by the judge. Also, the subjective feelings of the judge, or/and the jury. If the case had, miraculously, gone to trial, the judge might point out that the defendants were there, not because they attempted to commit a crime, but because they had already committed one, which was "dangerously loading" a boxing wrap, with the intention to commit bodily harm on an innocent opponent. Something like that I would say. Anyway, if found guilty, they would surely get either gaol or a suspended sentence with much community service. I think gaol. But the FBI (I believe) lab proved there was nothing there other than a used, otherwise harmless boxing pad. This was certainly backed up by the succeeding events, and I've made no speculative comments at all. It mainly showed a Commission who had been guilty of making a huge fuss over a minor infraction, and embarrassment that a Commission member had signed off on the wrapping already, so took a face saving decision to permanently ban an uninfluential trainer-but only in the US- and give only a "slap on the wrist" to the guy who was supposed to be in charge because he was so obviously innocent. Allow me my opinions. And let this be the finish of this foolish and degrading dispute. Please also let me add this: Mosley on the FNFs telecast the following week gave his side of the story, and he said once Nazim saw irregularity he took the pad from Margarito and brought it to Mosleys dressing room and gave it to Mosleys Dr. Which would mean anything could have been tampered with at that point, they allowed them to take possession of the wrap. Now notice Merchant said Margarito had to have his hands wrapped three times, the 1st time they found the pad but the other two times.. come on this was nothing more than a used pad, and nothing more than Nazim over tellin what happend. I mean thats like walking up to a murder scene and taking the bloody knife home then bringing it back

WHY would he be railroaded?? It's BAD for Boxing to have had this scandal... WHY would a man like Arum, rich and educated allow his money to be messed with and NOT refute a terrible decision by the commission?? I think they should do more to clear his name but the way Margarito and Arum are looking at it **** California move on... and they have, ask yourself this if that evidence was that strong why is NY worried about the eye and not looking at what happend in California? NY is a commission who stripped Evander of his license to save him from himself so why are they giving consideration to someone who is suspect? especially being that this is the same state as Resto vs Collins? Cotto took to many left hooks to the body and uppercuts during the fight. Plaster or no plaster that is a recipe for disaster. . if you watch that fight you see how hard he was banging that body, yet no broken ribs, if there was plaster one would have broke

Let's put it this way guys. Who's going to get more time in prison. Someone who plans to rob a store or someone who actually robs the store. Someone who plans to commit murder or someone who goes through with the homicide? Answer the above questions and you'll answer why the Margarito and Resto cases don't compare. Answer the above questions and you'll answer why Margarito only got suspended a year instead of life. On one hand you have someone who was caught AFTER giving an armed assault (resto). On the other hand you have someone who was caught BEFORE he can give the assault (Margarito). That's the difference. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves making me put this in kiddy terms. I mean I know I have one guy calling his community center some elite boxing club, but still he can't be that ignorant. Well, can he? Without having an argument about it, allow me to point out that something which was classed as illegal had already been done, and they "caught" the perpetrator(s). Anyway, on another point, a sentence depends, in my opinion, on the gravity of the offense, on the instructions given by the judge. Also, the subjective feelings of the judge, or/and the jury. If the case had, miraculously, gone to trial, the judge might point out that the defendants were there, not because they attempted to commit a crime, but because they had already committed one, which was "dangerously loading" a boxing wrap, with the intention to commit bodily harm on an innocent opponent. Something like that I would say. Anyway, if found guilty, they would surely get either gaol or a suspended sentence with much community service. I think gaol. But the FBI (I believe) lab proved there was nothing there other than a used, otherwise harmless boxing pad. This was certainly backed up by the succeeding events, and I've made no speculative comments at all. It mainly showed a Commission who had been guilty of making a huge fuss over a minor infraction, and embarrassment that a Commission member had signed off on the wrapping already, so took a face saving decision to permanently ban an uninfluential trainer-but only in the US- and give only a "slap on the wrist" to the guy who was supposed to be in charge because he was so obviously innocent. Allow me my opinions. And let this be the finish of this foolish and degrading dispute.

Cotto took to many left hooks to the body and uppercuts during the fight. Plaster or no plaster that is a recipe for disaster. Margo is going to fight the same way. It is up to Cotto to have a better game plan with holding, body attack and more jabs. During the Mosley fight Margo was hurt to the body during the whole fight. Don't know if Cotto can do what Mosley did cause Cotto doesn't have Mosley's right hand and speed.