Ortiz was a cherry pick???

The point is that Pac ducked fighting Mosley in 2009 or 2010, when Mosley had just knocked Margarito out, only to fight him after Mayweather beat him and after he fought a crappy draw with Mora. Pac clearly didn't choose to fight Ortiz, who established himself as the 2nd best WW after beating Berto, to fight Marquez, who Floyd already dominated at 144 2 years ago when Marquez had more left. Pac didn't chose to fight Berto in 2010, instead chose to fight Margarito who had just been knocked out by Mosley and Clottey who hadn't won a fight in 2 years. The whole point was that if Mayweather ducked Margarito and Cotto, which is what Pac fans say, than Pac clearly ducked those people right??? If Mayweather came back and fought Cotto in 2012, people would still say it's a duck, especially since Cotto hasn't been crap since 2008. Pac fans can't have it both ways. everyone loves to put floyd under a microscope because he is easier to attack. pacquiao is just as bad if not worse if you look past the media hype, accolades, and titles.

how did pac duck mosley? that fight happened. how is pac ducking ortiz and berto? those fights can still happen. floyd vs cotto or margarito, will never happen. That's the difference and that's why there isn't really a double standard. The point is that Pac ducked fighting Mosley in 2009 or 2010, when Mosley had just knocked Margarito out, only to fight him after Mayweather beat him and after he fought a crappy draw with Mora. Pac clearly didn't choose to fight Ortiz, who established himself as the 2nd best WW after beating Berto, to fight Marquez, who Floyd already dominated at 144 2 years ago when Marquez had more left. Pac didn't chose to fight Berto in 2010, instead chose to fight Margarito who had just been knocked out by Mosley and Clottey who hadn't won a fight in 2 years. The whole point was that if Mayweather ducked Margarito and Cotto, which is what Pac fans say, than Pac clearly ducked those people right??? If Mayweather came back and fought Cotto in 2012, people would still say it's a duck, especially since Cotto hasn't been crap since 2008. Pac fans can't have it both ways.

I find it funny that all the Floyd haters say Ortiz was a cherry pick now. "He only had one fight at 147"...and on and on and on. The "cherry pick" statement with Floyd started big time when FLoyd announced he was fighting Ricky Hatton with his WW titles on the line. Did you want Floyd to go down to 140 to defend his 147 lb titles??? Hatton was in his prime, unbeaten, #4 P4P in the world, coming off 4 big wins. "Hatton was small, not as good as 147". Yet, it seems like Pac is about to do the SAME EXACT THING. Pac is pretty much set to fight Timothy Bradley next year at 147. Bradley is a 140 champion, unbeaten, in his prime, #7 P4P in the world, coming off 3 big wins. Sound familiar??? Yet it's okay when Pac does it. Then, they say Floyd cherry picked Marquez in 2009. He fought Marquez at 144 lb CW and paid the penalities for coming in at 146 (what a sin that was). Marquez was past his prime-still good, with his only loss in a few eyars coming in a controversial SD loss to Manny in 2008 at 130 lbs. He was #2 P4P and had earned it at that point. Now, Manny fights Marquez in 2011 at 144, and we can all agree Marquez is a shell of even what he was 2-3 years ago, let alone his prime, and it's okay all of a sudden for Manny to do that. Marquez is a couple years removed from even ebing good, and what has he done to be #5 P4P in the world since Mayweather dominated him??? NOTHING. Yet, it's again okay for Manny to do it. Then, they say Floyd cherry picked Mosley. Mosley was coming off knocking Antonio Margarito out, and was set up to fight WBC WW Champ Andre Berto, but the Haiti thing messed that up. Mosley was clearly the 3rd or 4th best WW in the world, next to Floyd, Manny, and maybe Berto, and was coming off a huge win, one of the biggest in his entire career. I didn't see Manny rushing to fight Mosley at that point. Yet, Mosley was a cherry pick. But guess what???? Manny fought Mosley an entire year later, and when Mosley was coming off getting dominated by Floyd and fighting a draw with Sergio Mora for Christ sake. Yet, it was alright for Manny to do that. Now they say Ortiz was a cherry pick. Ortiz had just beaten previously unbeaten Andre Berto (who Manny did a pretty good job of not fighting in 2010 by the way), and was coming off 5 straight wins and a draw he should have won. Ortiz was 24, in his prime, comes into the ring as a Middleweight, and was coming off the biggest win of his career so far. By beating Berto he had established himself as the 2nd best WW in the world, with Floyd being gone and all. Ortiz initially said he wanted to fight Pacquiao next, as Mayweather was retired. I heard Pac fans say "Ortiz-Pacquiao would be a great fight. It would be a war. I hope this fight happens". Manny had an entire month after his fight with Mosley to sign on and fight Ortiz. He instead chose to fight Marquez (already been over that one). Then, Ortiz signs on to fight Mayweather, and it becomes a Floyd cherry pick. I have no doubt that if Pac fights Ortiz a year later or something, it will indeed be looked at as some monumental pick for Pacquiao, but a cherry pick for Mayweather still. Is that all just a coincidence??? all i wanna know is...when is the pac vs ortiz fight?

Pretty much any WW fight nowadays that Floyd or Manny take that isn't against each other is a cherry-pick. They are simply so far ahead of the other WWs (and smaller guys moving up).

Manny fought the guy who beat the #1 WW, and drew more money, which was Cotto. hurrrrr:bottle: when did Cotto beat the #1 WW?

I agree,,,but he was still considered the best during his reign correct? He was the champion then but he shouldn't have been considered the best, Mayweather would have beat him easily and I would rate Cotto ahead of him at the time. Just because your the champion it doesn't mean your the best, when Leon Spinks was champion he definately wasn't best nor was Ali when he regained the title.

Pactards won't admit the double standard there is when it comes to Mayweather and Pacquiao

If Floyd avoided Margarito and Cotto, than Pac avoided Mosley in 2009 and 2010, Berto in 2010, and Ortiz in 2011 right??? Floyd split with Arum after the Judah fight, to which Arum said "I will never do business with Mayweather again". Than, he comes out and says Floyd is refusing to fight Margarito. Also, Mayweather and his camp had been calling out Cotto since 2006, to which Top Rank replied "Cotto isn't ready for Mayweather". Mayweather announces he's done after Hatton, and than Cotto and Top Rank say Mayweather is avoiding him. Also, I hear people say "Mayweather ducked Tszyu in 2004 and 2005"...but than they say that Hatton's win over Tszyu was overrated. What would you all have said when Mayweather fought Tszyu in 2004 or 2005...that he was overrated and done. I also hear "Mayweather is avoiding Martinez"...when Pac is the guy that said he'd fight him at 150 lbs, to which Martinez agreed, and all of a sudden Martinez is just too big to fight Pac and no resposnse at all from Pacquiao or Arum. Also, apparently Mayweather is the guy comtemplating fighting Martinez at 154, but I am sure that Pac fans will say "Martinez was exposed by Barker, He was overrated" if Mayweather beats him. There is just so much damn biased against Mayweather on here. And to anyone saying I am an "Flomo" (what a dumb thing to say in the first place), NO. I am a Mayweather fan, as well as a Gamboa, Lara, Brook, Rigondeaux, Brook, Rios, Guerrero, Ward fan as well. Just because Mayweather is my favorite fighter right now, and I happen to not buy into Arum's crap, that doesn't make me a flomo. Pac said he'd fight Mosley at 142, Shane agreed, and he backed out. Same thing with Sergio Martinez. Pac avoided a Berto fight in 2010, as well as an Ortiz fight in 2011, why isn't Pac looked at as a ducker??? Pac hasn't agreed to testing up until fight day, at least that's what Koncz (Pac's closest adviser) and Ariza (Pac's conditioning coach) have said. Why isn't he being looked at as a guy who's avoiding testing??? It's the greatest double standard in sports today. LOL @ Floyd avoiding Cotto or Kostya

If Floyd avoided Margarito and Cotto, than Pac avoided Mosley in 2009 and 2010, Berto in 2010, and Ortiz in 2011 right??? Floyd split with Arum after the Judah fight, to which Arum said "I will never do business with Mayweather again". Than, he comes out and says Floyd is refusing to fight Margarito. Also, Mayweather and his camp had been calling out Cotto since 2006, to which Top Rank replied "Cotto isn't ready for Mayweather". Mayweather announces he's done after Hatton, and than Cotto and Top Rank say Mayweather is avoiding him. Also, I hear people say "Mayweather ducked Tszyu in 2004 and 2005"...but than they say that Hatton's win over Tszyu was overrated. What would you all have said when Mayweather fought Tszyu in 2004 or 2005...that he was overrated and done. I also hear "Mayweather is avoiding Martinez"...when Pac is the guy that said he'd fight him at 150 lbs, to which Martinez agreed, and all of a sudden Martinez is just too big to fight Pac and no resposnse at all from Pacquiao or Arum. Also, apparently Mayweather is the guy comtemplating fighting Martinez at 154, but I am sure that Pac fans will say "Martinez was exposed by Barker, He was overrated" if Mayweather beats him. There is just so much damn biased against Mayweather on here. And to anyone saying I am an "Flomo" (what a dumb thing to say in the first place), NO. I am a Mayweather fan, as well as a Gamboa, Lara, Brook, Rigondeaux, Rios, Guerrero, Ward fan as well. Just because Mayweather is my favorite fighter right now, and I happen to not buy into Arum's crap, that doesn't make me a flomo. Pac said he'd fight Mosley at 142, Shane agreed, and he backed out. Same thing with Sergio Martinez. Pac avoided a Berto fight in 2010, as well as an Ortiz fight in 2011, why isn't Pac looked at as a ducker??? Pac hasn't agreed to testing up until fight day, at least that's what Koncz (Pac's closest adviser) and Ariza (Pac's conditioning coach) have said. Why isn't he being looked at as a guy who's avoiding testing??? It's the greatest double standard in sports today.

Man after Mayweather beat Baldomir in 2006, at the beginning of 2007 Mayweather was #1 WW and moved up to fight Oscar....in July of that year Margarito lost to Paul Williams..... Judah/Baldomir/Floyd were the lineal champions. Margarito was ranked #1 contender to the lineage. Anyways, that's beyond the point of this F'ing thread. SMH.

When is the last time Pac fought someone consdiered in their "prime" and not on the down slope??? Solis in 2007 or Morales in 2005. When is the last time Pac fought someone coming off big wins and not losses or crap performances??? Diaz in 2008, Marquez in 2008, or Solis in 2007. When is the only time Mayweather fought a big fight with someone coming off losses and crap performances??? Zab Judah in 2006, and Judah was widely consdiered a top WW and in his latter prime. If you look at who was in their prime and who wasn't, Mayweather has definitely fought more big fights against prime opponents. Mayweather's big fights: G. Hernandez- Past prime but still good, coming off wins and hadn't lost in 3 years. Manfredy- Prime, coming off a win over a prime Arturo Gatti, hadn't lost in 5 years. Corrales- Prime, unbeaten. C. Hernandez- Prime, hadn't lost in like 4-5 years (Morlales later fought him as well). Chavez- Prime, hadn't lost in like 4 years (Morales later fought him too). Castillo 1- Latter prime, hadn't lost in 4 years and coming off win over Johnston. Castillo 2- Latter prime, immediate rematch. N'dou- Prime, hadn't lost in like 6 years. Gatti- Past prime, coming off 5 straight wins, hadn't lost in 3 years. Judah- Latter prime, coming off loss to Baldomir. Baldomir- Past prime but still good, hadn't lost in 8 years, coming off win over Judah. De La Hoya- Past prime, coming off win over Mayorga in his comeback. At 154 lbs. Hatton- Latter prime, unbeaten, coming off big wins. Marquez- Past prime but still good, only loss in 3-4 years was a SD loss to Pac. Mosley- Past prime, coming off big win over Margarito. Ortiz- Prime, coming 5 straight wins and a draw he should have won, just beaten Berto. Pacquiao's big fights: Ledwaba- Prime, coming off wins. Barrera- Latter prime, coming off wins. Marquez (DRAW)- Latter prime, coming off wins. Morales 1 (LOSS)- Latter prime, coming off a loss to Barrera. Morales 2- Latter prime/past prime but still good, coming off loss to Raheem. Morales 3- Past prime but still good, immediate rematch. Barrera 2- Past prime, coming off loss to Marquez. Solis- Prime, unbeaten. Marquez 2- Past prime but still good, hadn't lost in 3 years. Diaz- Past prime but still good, coming off wins. De La Hoya- Past prime, coming off loss to Mayweather. At 147 lbs. Hatton- Past prime but still good. Coming off loss to Mayweather and sub par outings vs Lazcano and Malignaggi. Cotto- Past prime but still good, coming off loss to Margarito and SD win over Clottey. Clottey- Past prime, coming off loss to Cotto, hadn't won a fight in 2 years. Margarito- Past prime, coming off loss to Mosley. Mosley- Past prime, coming off loss to Mayweather and draw with Mora. Marquez- Past prime, already beaten at 144 by Mayweather, coming off decent wins. Pac definitely fights guys coming off losses way more than Mayweather. Barrera is an all-time great. Pac's greatest win (unless he beats Mayweather). Morales and Marquez may be all time greats as well, but Pac only beat Morales after Raheem exposed the fact that Morales was not the same guy, and he arguably lost to Marquez twice, only to beat him now when he's 2-3 years removed from being a good fighter at all. Mayweather argubaly lost to Castillo in the first fight, but he gave him an immediate rematch and won convincingly. Both have fought guys past their prime, Pac probably a bit more so, but Mayweather's past prime opponents (Gatti, Baldomir, De La Hoya, Mosley) were all coming off big wins. Pac's past prime opponents (Barrera 2, De La Hoya, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley, and Marquez) aren't coming off big wins at all.

:stupid: Margarito was never ranked the #1 WW, he was only hyped up by Bob Arum..:lol1: Mayweather leaves Arum then all of a sudden hes scared of Margarito?? How naive are you man?.....so again..why didnt Manny fight the #1 WW? Actually Marg was ranked #1, he wasn't the lineal champion if that's you implying to. But, he was ranked #1 to the lineal title.

you said... "But, post Oscar no one he has faced is on the level of Pac. So yes there is a big difference." all the guys he has fought is no different than Manny and he will beat him just as he beat the other guys he has fought. Thats all Yes there are different that they're not on the level of Pac nor as great as Pac. So there is there big difference. That's all.

So why didnt Pac fight Mosley when he was P4p#3 and ranked the #1 WW? Why was he trynA drain him to 142 lbs then turn around and fight Cotto @145lbs then Clottey @147lbs? :dunno: Same reason why Floyd avoided Margarito who was not on his level.

I dont think tszyu is all that at all either, Then WTF is the issue with RubenSonny post?

HOF is not subject to the individual, it is subject to a vote taken 5 years after retirement. Since voters refer to both as future HOF'ers and WE BOTH AGREE this is correct, then its valid. Rankings are in many forms, some are individual, some are culmulative. Most rankings had shane #1 then and have manny #1 now so I think its valid. Your point about beating manny being greater is based on subjective things like p4p and ATG status. Take that out of it and what is left? Floyd beat Shane when shane was widely considered the best ww in the sport other than floyd. Haters say he cherry picked shane. If floyd beats manny, he will AGAIN beat somone widely considered the best ww in the sport other than floyd. So, taking your subjective feelings out of it, how is it any different? How has he not "cherry picked" manny? Of course it is subjective feeling. By many Barry McGuigan doesn't belong in the HOF. By many Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker etc etc belong in the HOF, even more so than Barry. Lyle just wrote an article of the 5 fighters that shouldn't be in the HOF. So yes it's all subjective. You can look at rankings from other website and organizations and they all are different. So again it's subjective. If the opinion differs then it's subject. So don't shoot down one argument while basically using the same one just to fit your agenda.

You're completely missing my point dude, I NEVER at any point thought Hatton was anything special, although I did think Tszyu would beat him. People just always change their perspectives on opponents after Mayweather beats them. So many people on these boards said Mayweather would never fight Mosley after Mosley beat Margs, mayweather fights and beats Mosley and then Mosley was washed up. So many people said Mayweather would never fight Ortiz after he beat Berto, Mayweather fights and beats him and now its a cherry pick. I have never picked against Mayweather and he is my favourite fighter of all time. Considering Hatton's level of competition up until the Tszyu fight I absolutely considered it a mild upset. That's a fair point he was just a glorified club fighter before the Tszyu fight. so Tszyu is considered by many to be one of the best 140lbers ever and he is overrated? Who was better than him during his reign at 140lbs? Just wondering... http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lexb1tkj2P1qbpwvs.gif It doesn't matter if he's considered to be one of the best 140s ever the history of the division is fairly shallow. His career mostly consisted of title defences against mediocre opponents. His best win is Zab Judah and he lost to a journeyman in his prime. He was a good fighter but nowhere near great, he gets his ass handed to him by prime Benitez, Cervantes, Chavez, Ortiz, Canzoneri, and Ross, not to mention any great or semi great WW.

Post the start of his career Manny has never been in the ring with anyone remotely close to Mayweather. Come on son you're a boxing head, a student of the sport, you know if Manny got knocked out by some asian bums, struggled with a washed up Morales, got outboxed by JMM twice over the span of 4 years & has troubles with fighters who move and can counter, threw 1200 punches vs Clottey and couldnt penetrate a high guard, couldnt finish a wounded shane mosley who did nothing but turn manny all night long.....HOW CAN HE DO ANYTHING TO MAYWEATHER? You are in supreme denial man, Manny will get his ears boxed off, he is shorter, smaller frame physically, shorter reach and cant fight going backwards, cant avoid right hands and isnt a 1 punch KO artist, he would literally have to beat the hell out of Mayweather like he did Margarito which we all know that would never happen. We all know Mannys weakness's, we havent seen Mayweathers...what is it a southpaw? LOL..gimme a break, he dominates southpaws very easily.....stop with the hating man. Get your emotions out of a knot. Mayweather will outbox and outclass Manny and his offense will be nullified with simple step backs and counters while the shorter smaller man will need to jump up and forward to lend on his very defensive target. WTF are you going on about? All I have said is that Pac will be the greatest win of his career. That it would be considered much different in beating Pac then it was in Ortiz, Mosley Hatton and that like. That no one he has faced Post Oscar is on Pac level. Not once in this thread did I mention Pac beating Floyd or how a H2H match up with Floyd will play out. Are you that blinded from Floyd jizz that you seeing things that are no there?

Stop saying in one breath that ATG is hypothetical and subject to the individual while on the other breath saying both are future HOF'ers and their WW ranking. Because all that is subject to individual as well. Mosley is/was not considered by the masses in being on Pac level. End of. HOF is not subject to the individual, it is subject to a vote taken 5 years after retirement. Since voters refer to both as future HOF'ers and WE BOTH AGREE this is correct, then its valid. Rankings are in many forms, some are individual, some are culmulative. Most rankings had shane #1 then and have manny #1 now so I think its valid. Your point about beating manny being greater is based on subjective things like p4p and ATG status. Take that out of it and what is left? Floyd beat Shane when shane was widely considered the best ww in the sport other than floyd. Haters say he cherry picked shane. If floyd beats manny, he will AGAIN beat somone widely considered the best ww in the sport other than floyd. So, taking your subjective feelings out of it, how is it any different? How has he not "cherry picked" manny?

If he fights Manny, this will be the second time he has fought the #1 ww in the world other than himself. Manny's level is no more than that. The ATG status is hypothetical and subject to the individual. The P4P status is hypothetical. So the only difference between Pac and Mosley is individual opinion. BOth are future HOF'ers who are/were the highest rated ww other than floyd at the time of the fight. Stop saying in one breath that ATG is hypothetical and subject to the individual while on the other breath saying both are future HOF'ers and their WW ranking. Because all that is subject to individual as well. Mosley is/was not considered by the masses in being on Pac level. End of.