Does Sergio Martinez deserve to be known as the 3rd best P4P boxer in the world?

Donaire has looked significantly sharper and scarier. Donaire looks special. I had Sergio's fight even through the first eight rounds. Sergio has to be #4

Most definitely he does. The man has been in many competitive fights

Didn't Montiel outweighed Donaire on fight night? I might be mistaken. he did, significantly. http://worldboxingvideoarchive.com/images/499301.jpg 8lbs at bantam.

hes beat darchinyan at flyweight, marquez at super fly and montiel at bantam. Hes fought at three different weightclasses. It's not like hes a huge guy. He weighed 126 against montiel on fight night. Didn't Montiel outweighed Donaire on fight night? I might be mistaken.

u can blame management struggles, but the guy is bordering on thirty and he has not moved up in weight at all. and his next fight is once again a regression. fighting a guy much much smaller than he is. any time he gets some momentum, he finds a way to **** it up. either hes not smart or those managing hin honestly doesnt give a **** about his career. hes beat darchinyan at flyweight, marquez at super fly and montiel at bantam. Hes fought at three different weightclasses. It's not like hes a huge guy. He weighed 126 against montiel on fight night.

Hes won his last 3 fights by knockout against really good fighters. No one else is doing that in boxing.

Didn't i say just that? And that i feel fighting Montiel was a big step in the right direction? Okay if you said that, then my bad, sorry if that part came off wrong. Now I'm obviously not the donaire expert like you are. But don't you think the management struggles donaire has had lately has something to do with him not "following up" the montiel win with a big bantamweight name? I'm not really a Donaire expert at all, but as far as it being his management....I'm not buying it if that's the reason he is using (not sure if he has stated that though). I say this because it's the same sh1t regardless of the promoter but for some reason people blamed Shaw, now Bob and if he went to GBP it would be Oscar. At some point you gotta look at a common denominator and besides that, Donaire has a pretty good Manager who has been with him for a while, making all of that a moot point anyway. Speaking of which, Donaire got mad because Arum wanted him to face Moreno and other top BW, while donaire wanted to take money fights instead (vazquez jr.) So his whole problems with Top Rank is Arum and Debouf wanting him to take the right fights that will add to his legacy, and instead Donaire wants to take money fights in Vazquez Jrs and easy fights (Cazares and Narvaez) that do nothing to add to his legacy.

Didn't i say just that? And that i feel fighting Montiel was a big step in the right direction? Now I'm obviously not the donaire expert like you are. But don't you think the management struggles donaire has had lately has something to do with him not "following up" the montiel win with a big bantamweight name? u can blame management struggles, but the guy is bordering on thirty and he has not moved up in weight at all. and his next fight is once again a regression. fighting a guy much much smaller than he is. any time he gets some momentum, he finds a way to **** it up. either hes not smart or those managing hin honestly doesnt give a **** about his career.

No disrespect to you as a poster, but it seems you really haven't followed donaire that long. I say this because anyone who has, no he doesn't challenge himself consistantly and would rather sit back and claim people are ducking him instead of taking fights that could lead to him being an ATG/HOF fighter. At 112, he was called out wongjong and naito but both were set on facing each. Maybe it was a duck by them but even at that, there were a ton of other fighters willing to face Donaire. Then he cries because a 19 year old Kameda turns the fight down because his camp said he is still developing as a fighter. Yes he beat Darchinyan and Montiel, but notice how he never follows up. Agbecko has been calling him out for years, and guys like Perez and others have never had any issues facing him. I mean look how loaded 118 is. Why not clean out that division or face other elite fighters there? Instead dude was trying to fight Hugo Cazareaz. Donaire is pathetic and yes he is talented and will have a great win here and there, but him going years upon years in between without challenging himself is why I say he isn't interested in being great. as long as top rank doesnt talk about floyd he knows what hes talking about. and he is not wrong here. its the truth.

Kessler is a better fighter than Pavlik. "Context of P4P?" Whatever. Kessler is a better fighter and Ward sonned him. Yes if we're discussing p4p, as hypothetical as it may be, of course weight differences need to be considered. Kessler may very well be a better fighter. Hes for sure one of my favorites. But Pavlik had better wins than Kessler, outweighed Martinez significantly and was in fact the lineal champ.

i disagree. I think Pavlik in the context of p4p is a better win for Martinez than Kessler is for Ward. I don't think we should neglect the fact Pavlik was lineal champ either. Williams and Abraham i don't feel the need to clarify. Also agree with crold. p4p may be a fun mental exercise, but in the end kind of pointless. Kessler is a better fighter than Pavlik. "Context of P4P?" Whatever. Kessler is a better fighter and Ward sonned him. Seriously though, P4P is lazy. I engage in it for fun, but there are serious Middleweights for Martinez to defend his crown against, a better crop than Hopkins had arguably at any point (minus Tito). I can't wait for him to get to it.

No disrespect to you as a poster, but it seems you really haven't followed donaire that long. I say this because anyone who has, no he doesn't challenge himself consistantly and would rather sit back and claim people are ducking him instead of taking fights that could lead to him being an ATG/HOF fighter. Didn't i say just that? And that i feel fighting Montiel was a big step in the right direction? Yes he beat Darchinyan and Montiel, but notice how he never follows up. Agbecko has been calling him out for years, and guys like Perez and others have never had any issues facing him. Now I'm obviously not the donaire expert like you are. But don't you think the management struggles donaire has had lately has something to do with him not "following up" the montiel win with a big bantamweight name?

Sergio is supposed to be the best fighter in the world. Barker isnt. Barker gave Sergio a tough tough fight, so Sergio didnt perform like the best fighter in the world. Although you cant perform great every performance. So i'll be gentle on Sergio, im not saying he isnt one of the greatest fighters in the world but that wasnt a performance of the greatest. If SSM is better than Barker on paper, then Sergio will be having to perform like Pac did to have an equivalent performance. And Sergio is in no way equivalent to Pac, even though he wants to be known to be. Floyd should fight Sergio now, because Floyd will get credit for beating the so called second or third best fighter in the world, who isnt, if u get my drift.?

Narvaez is just of mild importance. I don't even think Narvaez is especially good. The important part of my hypothetical was him beating Gamboa at featherweight. That would mean hes gone from flyweight to feather winning legitimate titles, beating elite opponents. Could you elaborate on donaire not wanting to be great? I had my doubts about the kid before, i felt his resume was somewhat overrated. But since he stepped up and fought Montiel, I've dropped those thoughts. No disrespect to you as a poster, but it seems you really haven't followed donaire that long. I say this because anyone who has, no he doesn't challenge himself consistantly and would rather sit back and claim people are ducking him instead of taking fights that could lead to him being an ATG/HOF fighter. At 112, he was called out wongjong and naito but both were set on facing each. Maybe it was a duck by them but even at that, there were a ton of other fighters willing to face Donaire. Then he cries because a 19 year old Kameda turns the fight down because his camp said he is still developing as a fighter. Yes he beat Darchinyan and Montiel, but notice how he never follows up. Agbecko has been calling him out for years, and guys like Perez and others have never had any issues facing him. I mean look how loaded 118 is. Why not clean out that division or face other elite fighters there? Instead dude was trying to fight Hugo Cazareaz. Donaire is pathetic and yes he is talented and will have a great win here and there, but him going years upon years in between without challenging himself is why I say he isn't interested in being great.

i disagree. I think Pavlik in the context of p4p is a better win for Martinez than Kessler is for Ward. I don't think we should neglect the fact Pavlik was lineal champ either. Williams and Abraham i don't feel the need to clarify. Also agree with crold. p4p may be a fun mental exercise, but in the end kind of pointless.

Williams is a better win than AA. Kessler is a better win than Pavlik. Ward is perfectly valid anywhere soemone wants to put him in the top ten and it's valid to argue against it. It's P4P...who cares? Better to focus on whether Martinez is better than N'Djam or Pirog. Those are actually fights in his division. Agreed. It balances out.

Martinez noteworthy wins are Pavlik and Williams. What's the difference? Williams is a better win than AA. Kessler is a better win than Pavlik. Ward is perfectly valid anywhere soemone wants to put him in the top ten and it's valid to argue against it. It's P4P...who cares? Better to focus on whether Martinez is better than N'Djam or Pirog. Those are actually fights in his division.

why do people have ward so high on their p4p lists? His two noteworthy wins are kessler and abraham(at 168). I just don't get it. If he beats Froch, that would be a major improvement for his resume. But he hasn't. Martinez noteworthy wins are Pavlik and Williams. What's the difference?

Absolutely not. him fighting Navaez is equivalent to Sergio fighting Lucas Matthysse at MW. Well not even that because at least Matthysse is a legit fighter....while the jury is still out on Narvaez. Donaire is talented no doubt, and I would never doubt his skill level, but the kid is everything fans accuse Floyd and Manny of and then some. He has no interest in being great and I highly doubt he will face Gamboa. Narvaez is just of mild importance. I don't even think Narvaez is especially good. The important part of my hypothetical was him beating Gamboa at featherweight. That would mean hes gone from flyweight to feather winning legitimate titles, beating elite opponents. Could you elaborate on donaire not wanting to be great? I had my doubts about the kid before, i felt his resume was somewhat overrated. But since he stepped up and fought Montiel, I've dropped those thoughts.

Absolutely not. him fighting Navaez is equivalent to Sergio fighting Lucas Matthysse at MW. Well not even that because at least Matthysse is a legit fighter....while the jury is still out on Narvaez. Donaire is talented no doubt, and I would never doubt his skill level, but the kid is everything fans accuse Floyd and Manny of and then some. He has no interest in being great and I highly doubt he will face Gamboa.QUOTE] Care to elaborate on this?