Lampley comments on PEDS

Hold on, not so fast. As powerlifting guru, Louie Simmons, has said in the documentary that I mentioned, "Regardless of what people think about Barry Bonds, you can't take a bottle of testosterone, put on Barry's baseball uniform and make him hit 700 homeruns. BARRY HAS GOTTA GO OUT AND TRAIN AT HITTING 700 HOMERUNS." There is a prevailing misconception out there that PED/steroid use is the easy way out, which is true to a certain extent. However, you just don't pop pills and magically become athletically gifted. It won't give you all the technical nuances of proper punching mechanics or the nuances of certain movements in any other sport. You have to train very hard to get those things down. It is because of this realization that I'm still on the fence about PED/steroid use. That's right. PED's do not prevent anyone from getting knocked out and/or losing the fight regardless where the fight takes place anywhere in the world. If PED's were the major key to winning in boxing, not to mention other sports, then PED's would have to be given the major credit for the performance of the athlete. Granted, PED's have been around and are here to stay and so is more advanced drug testing to catch the perps.

First, this has been a very informative thread that has been argued intelligently from both sides of the aisle. Take a bow gentlemen. Secondly, judging from the strong points presented by both sides, the issue will remain controversial and would be very difficult to resolve until a more definitive study on the pros and cons of peds' use becomes available or when the general perception on the acceptance of the drugs changes dramatically. So, carry on gentlemen! Let us hope that this thread remains the way it is and pray that it becomes the model for other threads to follow.

I think pro wrestling would make a good case study of why not legalize steroids or peds. The following is a list of wrestlers that have died before the age of 65, not all on the list died of steroid or ped use but the % that have died is startling: Chris Von Erich (Von Erich Family Tree) - 21 Mike Von Erich - 23 Louie Spiccoli - 27 Art Barr - 28 Gino Hernandez - 29 Lance Cade - 29 Jay Youngblood - 30 Rick McGraw - 30 Joey Marella - 30 Ed Gatner - 31 Buzz Sawyer - 32 Crash Holly - 32 Kerry Von Erich - 33 D.J. Peterson - 33 Eddie Gilbert - 33 The Renegade - 33 Chris Candido - 33 Test - 33 Adrian Adonis - 34 Gary Albright - 34 Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34 Owen Hart - 34 Yokozuna - 34 Big Dick Dudley - 34 Brian Pillman - 35 Marianna Komlos - 35 Umaga - 36 Pitbull #2 - 36 The Wall/Malice - 36 Emory Hale - 36 Leroy Brown - 38 Mark Curtis - 38 Eddie Guerrero - 38 John Kronus - 38 Davey Boy Smith - 39 Johnny Grunge - 39 Chris Kanyon - 40 Vivian Vachon - 40 Jeep Swenson - 40 Brady Boone - 40 Terry Gordy - 40 Bertha Faye - 40 Billy Joe Travis - 40 Chris Benoit - 40 Larry Cameron - 41 Rick Rude - 41 Randy Anderson - 41 Bruiser Brody - 42 Miss Elizabeth - 42 Big Boss Man - 42 Earthquake - 42 Mike Awesome - 42 Biff Wellington - 42 Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 Ray Candy - 43 Nancy Benoit (Woman) - 43 Dino Bravo - 44 Curt Hennig - 44 El Gigante/Giant Gonzalez - 44 Bam Bam Bigelow - 45 Jerry Blackwell - 45 Junkyard Dog - 45 Hercules - 45 Toni Adams - 45 Andre the Giant - 46 Big John Studd - 46 Chris Adams - 46 Mike Davis - 46 Hawk - 46 Mitsuharu Misawa - 46 Ludvig Borga - 47 Luna Vachon - 48 Steve Dunn - 48 Cousin Junior - 48 Dick Murdoch - 49 Jumbo Tsuruta - 49 Rocco Rock - 49 Sherri Martel - 49 Steve Williams - 49 Moondog Spot - 51 Bastion Booger/Norman the Lunatic - 53 Ken Timbs - 53 Uncle Elmer - 54 Pez Whatley - 54 The Angel of Death - 54 Eddie Graham - 55 Tarzan Tyler - 55 Haystacks Calhoun- 55 Giant Haystacks - 55 Buddy Rose - 56 Kurt Von Hess - 56 Moondog King - 56 Randy Savage - 58 Gene Anderson - 58 Dr. Jerry Graham - 58 Bulldog Brown - 58 Tony Parisi - 58 Rufus R. Jones - 60 Ray Stevens - 60 Stan Stasiak - 60 Terry Garvin - 60 Boris Malenko - 61 Little Beaver - 61 Sapphire - 61 Shohei Baba - 61 Sir Oliver Humperdink - 62 Dick the Bruiser - 62 Wilbur Snyder - 62 George Cannon - 62 Karl Krupp - 62 Dale Lewis - 62 Gorilla Monsoon - 62 Hiro Matsuda - 62 Bad News Brown - 63 Bulldog Brower - 63 SD Jones - 63 Wahoo McDaniel - 63 http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm Those guys abused the hell out peds though, it's not the same as it used to be. The drugs are getting better/safer and the doctors understand them better/can prescribe a more proper regiment without all the adverse side affects. thats a list of wrestlers that have i died from different causes. show me something that states which of these wrestlers did indeed die of steroids. Come on now, that would have to be one hell of a coincidence. If u abuse steroids or ANY drugs u run the risk of killing yourself. That doesn't mean we necessarily need to outlaw zanex because people abuse it and die. I personally hope peds stay illegal in sports, call me old school but there is just something wrong about shooting up roids before u compete. I'm not saying they can make a bad player good cause they can't, but they can give an already great player a boost. Barry bonds would have always been a hof player, but he wouldn't have blown up into the incredible hulk and hit more home runs then babe freaking ruth. That's not right any way u slice it.

I think pro wrestling would make a good case study of why not legalize steroids or peds. The following is a list of wrestlers that have died before the age of 65, not all on the list died of steroid or ped use but the % that have died is startling: Chris Von Erich (Von Erich Family Tree) - 21 Mike Von Erich - 23 Louie Spiccoli - 27 Art Barr - 28 Gino Hernandez - 29 Lance Cade - 29 Jay Youngblood - 30 Rick McGraw - 30 Joey Marella - 30 Ed Gatner - 31 Buzz Sawyer - 32 Crash Holly - 32 Kerry Von Erich - 33 D.J. Peterson - 33 Eddie Gilbert - 33 The Renegade - 33 Chris Candido - 33 Test - 33 Adrian Adonis - 34 Gary Albright - 34 Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34 Owen Hart - 34 Yokozuna - 34 Big Dick Dudley - 34 Brian Pillman - 35 Marianna Komlos - 35 Umaga - 36 Pitbull #2 - 36 The Wall/Malice - 36 Emory Hale - 36 Leroy Brown - 38 Mark Curtis - 38 Eddie Guerrero - 38 John Kronus - 38 Davey Boy Smith - 39 Johnny Grunge - 39 Chris Kanyon - 40 Vivian Vachon - 40 Jeep Swenson - 40 Brady Boone - 40 Terry Gordy - 40 Bertha Faye - 40 Billy Joe Travis - 40 Chris Benoit - 40 Larry Cameron - 41 Rick Rude - 41 Randy Anderson - 41 Bruiser Brody - 42 Miss Elizabeth - 42 Big Boss Man - 42 Earthquake - 42 Mike Awesome - 42 Biff Wellington - 42 Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 Ray Candy - 43 Nancy Benoit (Woman) - 43 Dino Bravo - 44 Curt Hennig - 44 El Gigante/Giant Gonzalez - 44 Bam Bam Bigelow - 45 Jerry Blackwell - 45 Junkyard Dog - 45 Hercules - 45 Toni Adams - 45 Andre the Giant - 46 Big John Studd - 46 Chris Adams - 46 Mike Davis - 46 Hawk - 46 Mitsuharu Misawa - 46 Ludvig Borga - 47 Luna Vachon - 48 Steve Dunn - 48 Cousin Junior - 48 Dick Murdoch - 49 Jumbo Tsuruta - 49 Rocco Rock - 49 Sherri Martel - 49 Steve Williams - 49 Moondog Spot - 51 Bastion Booger/Norman the Lunatic - 53 Ken Timbs - 53 Uncle Elmer - 54 Pez Whatley - 54 The Angel of Death - 54 Eddie Graham - 55 Tarzan Tyler - 55 Haystacks Calhoun- 55 Giant Haystacks - 55 Buddy Rose - 56 Kurt Von Hess - 56 Moondog King - 56 Randy Savage - 58 Gene Anderson - 58 Dr. Jerry Graham - 58 Bulldog Brown - 58 Tony Parisi - 58 Rufus R. Jones - 60 Ray Stevens - 60 Stan Stasiak - 60 Terry Garvin - 60 Boris Malenko - 61 Little Beaver - 61 Sapphire - 61 Shohei Baba - 61 Sir Oliver Humperdink - 62 Dick the Bruiser - 62 Wilbur Snyder - 62 George Cannon - 62 Karl Krupp - 62 Dale Lewis - 62 Gorilla Monsoon - 62 Hiro Matsuda - 62 Bad News Brown - 63 Bulldog Brower - 63 SD Jones - 63 Wahoo McDaniel - 63 http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm thats a list of wrestlers that have i died from different causes. show me something that states which of these wrestlers did indeed die of steroids.

Again, with proper medical supervision, these negative side-effects can be dealt with to a certain degree. To add, nothing is 100% safe. Hell, if I drink too much water, which is one of the building blocks of life, I CAN DIE. As you pointed out, PEDs/steroids do you have significant medical purposes. Professional athletes are subjected to constant training that the human body is simply not built to perform on a regular basis. Isn't it sensible to say that their bodies require the medical benefits from said substances? Sorry to argue semantics, but we have to really define the phrase "enhance performance" because it's really thrown around these message boards very loosely. As Lampley pointed out, we don't apply the same negative connotation to the phrase when it comes to other areas in life. It's immoral for an athlete to use steroids/PEDs to help him or her in a sport. But it's not such a bad thing when regular folks use beta blockers to help them perform a certain job more effectively. Why is the line being drawn in some areas and not others? i wouldn't be totally against it if doctors prescribed steroids to help overcome very serious injuries in sports, for example severely broken legs and the like. If they are legal it is an even playing field, however i just don't see that happening. As for the second part in bold that is just a fact of life, and it happens everywhere and on many different topics and also what is and isn't acceptable. Personally i don't condone it (especially for combat sports) because it puts the athletes at a greater risk than they already are in terms of their health. Boxers and other athletes will abuse PED's if legal by pushing the limit on how much they take to get that extra uplift in performance. Boxers who wouldn't take them in the current circumstances would be forced to in order to keep up with the rest....this is the main point of my argument. It's an interesting topic, and ofcourse any point of view isn't going to be fullproof. It's almost akin to the argument for legalising recreational drugs, which i am for, which perhaps contradicts my stance here on the PED issue. :dunno:

I think pro wrestling would make a good case study of why not legalize steroids or peds. The following is a list of wrestlers that have died before the age of 65, not all on the list died of steroid or ped use but the % that have died is startling: Chris Von Erich (Von Erich Family Tree) - 21 Mike Von Erich - 23 Louie Spiccoli - 27 Art Barr - 28 Gino Hernandez - 29 Lance Cade - 29 Jay Youngblood - 30 Rick McGraw - 30 Joey Marella - 30 Ed Gatner - 31 Buzz Sawyer - 32 Crash Holly - 32 Kerry Von Erich - 33 D.J. Peterson - 33 Eddie Gilbert - 33 The Renegade - 33 Chris Candido - 33 Test - 33 Adrian Adonis - 34 Gary Albright - 34 Bobby Duncum Jr. - 34 Owen Hart - 34 Yokozuna - 34 Big Dick Dudley - 34 Brian Pillman - 35 Marianna Komlos - 35 Umaga - 36 Pitbull #2 - 36 The Wall/Malice - 36 Emory Hale - 36 Leroy Brown - 38 Mark Curtis - 38 Eddie Guerrero - 38 John Kronus - 38 Davey Boy Smith - 39 Johnny Grunge - 39 Chris Kanyon - 40 Vivian Vachon - 40 Jeep Swenson - 40 Brady Boone - 40 Terry Gordy - 40 Bertha Faye - 40 Billy Joe Travis - 40 Chris Benoit - 40 Larry Cameron - 41 Rick Rude - 41 Randy Anderson - 41 Bruiser Brody - 42 Miss Elizabeth - 42 Big Boss Man - 42 Earthquake - 42 Mike Awesome - 42 Biff Wellington - 42 Brian Adams (Crush) - 43 Ray Candy - 43 Nancy Benoit (Woman) - 43 Dino Bravo - 44 Curt Hennig - 44 El Gigante/Giant Gonzalez - 44 Bam Bam Bigelow - 45 Jerry Blackwell - 45 Junkyard Dog - 45 Hercules - 45 Toni Adams - 45 Andre the Giant - 46 Big John Studd - 46 Chris Adams - 46 Mike Davis - 46 Hawk - 46 Mitsuharu Misawa - 46 Ludvig Borga - 47 Luna Vachon - 48 Steve Dunn - 48 Cousin Junior - 48 Dick Murdoch - 49 Jumbo Tsuruta - 49 Rocco Rock - 49 Sherri Martel - 49 Steve Williams - 49 Moondog Spot - 51 Bastion Booger/Norman the Lunatic - 53 Ken Timbs - 53 Uncle Elmer - 54 Pez Whatley - 54 The Angel of Death - 54 Eddie Graham - 55 Tarzan Tyler - 55 Haystacks Calhoun- 55 Giant Haystacks - 55 Buddy Rose - 56 Kurt Von Hess - 56 Moondog King - 56 Randy Savage - 58 Gene Anderson - 58 Dr. Jerry Graham - 58 Bulldog Brown - 58 Tony Parisi - 58 Rufus R. Jones - 60 Ray Stevens - 60 Stan Stasiak - 60 Terry Garvin - 60 Boris Malenko - 61 Little Beaver - 61 Sapphire - 61 Shohei Baba - 61 Sir Oliver Humperdink - 62 Dick the Bruiser - 62 Wilbur Snyder - 62 George Cannon - 62 Karl Krupp - 62 Dale Lewis - 62 Gorilla Monsoon - 62 Hiro Matsuda - 62 Bad News Brown - 63 Bulldog Brower - 63 SD Jones - 63 Wahoo McDaniel - 63 http://prowrestling.about.com/od/whatsrealwhatsfake/a/wrestlersdeaths.htm

dude there is numerous and i mean numerous studies with empirical evidence about the side effects of various PED's FULL STOP. They have negative side-effects when used at levels that enhance performance. There are things you can do to "mitigate" negative side-effects, but the longer you use and the more you use, nothing will mitigate the negative effects. Again, with proper medical supervision, these negative side-effects can be dealt with to a certain degree. To add, nothing is 100% safe. Hell, if I drink too much water, which is one of the building blocks of life, I CAN DIE. As you pointed out, PEDs/steroids do you have significant medical purposes. Professional athletes are subjected to constant training that the human body is simply not built to perform on a regular basis. Isn't it sensible to say that their bodies require the medical benefits from said substances? Sorry to argue semantics, but we have to really define the phrase "enhance performance" because it's really thrown around these message boards very loosely. As Lampley pointed out, we don't apply the same negative connotation to the phrase when it comes to other areas in life. It's immoral for an athlete to use steroids/PEDs to help him or her in a sport. But it's not such a bad thing when regular folks use beta blockers to help them perform a certain job more effectively. Why is the line being drawn in some areas and not others?

However, most of the arguments fall on what you cited as anecdotal evidence. However, you need more than qualitative analysis to give a definitive answer. As for the consequences that stem from long-term steroid "abuse", it may be a result of unsupervised usage. However, this becomes less of a problem with the constant check-ups and medical supervision that you mentioned. For an individual who has a testosterone deficiency, how can one even make the argument that steroids are bad for prolonged use? Now the ultimate question is whether PEDs/steroids are truly dangerous in the long run. There just hasn't been sufficient studies to give a definitive answer from a quantitative AND qualitative perspective. The issue with PEDs/steroids in the realm of sports is really on the grounds of morality not so much medical safety. To refer back to the "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" documentary, why is it that sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber and training at altitude are legal to boost one's red blood cells, but blood doping and EPO aren't? All these methods are utilized for the same reason when it comes to sports. With legalization, I believe that unsupervised usage will cease to exist, which may prevent unwanted negative side-effects. Unsupervised usage is due to the illegal nature of these substances in sports. dude there is numerous and i mean numerous studies with empirical evidence about the side effects of various PED's FULL STOP. They have negative side-effects when used at levels that enhance performance. There are things you can do to "mitigate" negative side-effects, but the longer you use and the more you use, nothing will mitigate the negative effects.

There's plenty of studies, and anecdotal evidence, which is why many doctors will actually prescribe steroids if patients ask for them. They feel it is better that they take them under a doctors supervision than acquire them illegally and without constant checkups. Long term steroid abuse has been shown to alter the left ventricle of the heart and there is other known side effects associated with synthetically introduced EPO and HGH in the human body. These substances have medical uses. EPO (and the various forms it comes in) was initially developed for medical use, as with most other PED's. Doctors prescribe them when the benfit of doing so outweighs the negative consequences. However, most of the arguments fall on what you cited as anecdotal evidence. However, you need more than qualitative analysis to give a definitive answer. As for the consequences that stem from long-term steroid "abuse", it may be a result of unsupervised usage. However, this becomes less of a problem with the constant check-ups and medical supervision that you mentioned. For an individual who has a testosterone deficiency, how can one even make the argument that steroids are bad for prolonged use? Now the ultimate question is whether PEDs/steroids are truly dangerous in the long run. There just hasn't been sufficient studies to give a definitive answer from a quantitative AND qualitative perspective. The issue with PEDs/steroids in the realm of sports is really on the grounds of morality not so much medical safety. To refer back to the "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" documentary, why is it that sleeping in a hyperbaric chamber and training at altitude are legal to boost one's red blood cells, but blood doping and EPO aren't? All these methods are utilized for the same reason when it comes to sports. With legalization, I believe that unsupervised usage will cease to exist, which may prevent unwanted negative side-effects. Unsupervised usage is due to the illegal nature of these substances in sports.

Very interesting. I liked that video, it should have been longer. I always enjoy listening to Lampley speak on boxing topics and stuff. Although singers aren't punching any one in the face, Jim.

If you legalise PED's in sports it's even a bigger disadvantage to the up and comers. It will create a market where only the richest will be able to afford the latest and greatest PED's. Sport should be about hard work and natural ability, not paying for short cuts to success.

There hasn't been a concrete long-term study on the prolonged use of PEDs/steroids to my knowledge. Many of the studies have come out inconclusive. There's plenty of studies, and anecdotal evidence, which is why many doctors will actually prescribe steroids if patients ask for them. They feel it is better that they take them under a doctors supervision than acquire them illegally and without constant checkups. Long term steroid abuse has been shown to alter the left ventricle of the heart and there is other known side effects associated with synthetically introduced EPO and HGH in the human body. These substances have medical uses. EPO (and the various forms it comes in) was initially developed for medical use, as with most other PED's. Doctors prescribe them when the benfit of doing so outweighs the negative consequences.

Lol, going down this path will get ugly very quickly. Honestly, I'm tired of speaking on the Floyd-Pac debacle. I got sucked into it like many have. I now believe that both sides are to blame in the fight not happening. All I know is that, at this point, both fighters are going to have great fights in the Fall. Unfortunately, it won't be with each other. However, I'm cool with Pac-JMM and especially with, Floyd-Ortiz. true, both parties are to blame and yes, both their respective fights ARE indeed interesting.

which is why i believe the 7 day window pac is asking for is reasonable and that their saying his taking PEDS AT THE POINT OF TONING DOWN HIS TRAINING is all bullcrap. those last seven days right before a fight is no longer training actually, but toning down the body to recover from the training. sorry, i know this isn't about Pac, but i felt that i had to point it out. Lol, going down this path will get ugly very quickly. Honestly, I'm tired of speaking on the Floyd-Pac debacle. I got sucked into it like many have. I now believe that both sides are to blame in the fight not happening. All I know is that, at this point, both fighters are going to have great fights in the Fall. Unfortunately, it won't be with each other. However, I'm cool with Pac-JMM and especially with, Floyd-Ortiz.

There hasn't been a concrete long-term study on the prolonged use of PEDs/steroids to my knowledge. Many of the studies have come out inconclusive. an interesting point. but that only leads to MORE questions and more arguments. nothing elicits more conflict than questions with no concrete answers. in the end, i believe legalizing PEDs would open a pandora's box the end result of which, NOBODY can truly predict.

Hold on, not so fast. As powerlifting guru, Louie Simmons, has said in the documentary that I mentioned, "Regardless of what people think about Barry Bonds, you can't take a bottle of testosterone, put on Barry's baseball uniform and make him hit 700 homeruns. BARRY HAS GOTTA GO OUT AND TRAIN AT HITTING 700 HOMERUNS." There is a prevailing misconception out there that PED/steroid use is the easy way out, which is true to a certain extent. However, you just don't pop pills and magically become athletically gifted. It won't give you all the technical nuances of proper punching mechanics or the nuances of certain movements in any other sport. You have to train very hard to get those things down. It is because of this realization that I'm still on the fence about PED/steroid use. which is why i believe the 7 day window pac is asking for is reasonable and that their saying his taking PEDS AT THE POINT OF TONING DOWN HIS TRAINING is all bullcrap. those last seven days right before a fight is no longer training actually, but toning down the body to recover from the training. sorry, i know this isn't about Pac, but i felt that i had to point it out.

True, sort of. Another reason they are banned is because of the adverse side-effects associated with long-term use, and also morality as you have stated. There hasn't been a concrete long-term study on the prolonged use of PEDs/steroids to my knowledge. Many of the studies have come out inconclusive.

yeah i must agree, records and wins would be tainted from it. i don't understand how someone could think it would be okay to allow it honestly, sometimes the beauty of the sport is to see the pure talents that come around every generation or so...guess it's just my opinion though Your opinion is very valid. However, maybe we have to let go of the romanticized vision we have of athletes. As I said in a previous post, PEDs/steroids don't automatically make you a better athlete. You have to train as well and train VERY HARD.

that is a very good set of points there. but IF PEDs would actually be legalized, i could see that the stars would eventually be the PEDS and no longer the fighters themselves. Hold on, not so fast. As powerlifting guru, Louie Simmons, has said in the documentary that I mentioned, "Regardless of what people think about Barry Bonds, you can't take a bottle of testosterone, put on Barry's baseball uniform and make him hit 700 homeruns. BARRY HAS GOTTA GO OUT AND TRAIN AT HITTING 700 HOMERUNS." There is a prevailing misconception out there that PED/steroid use is the easy way out, which is true to a certain extent. However, you just don't pop pills and magically become athletically gifted. It won't give you all the technical nuances of proper punching mechanics or the nuances of certain movements in any other sport. You have to train very hard to get those things down. It is because of this realization that I'm still on the fence about PED/steroid use.

Well, your concern for the safety of fighters becomes a moot point if PEDs were legalized across the board. If every fighter was allowed to use them, then it would technically be a level playing field for all. I'm still on the fence about PED use. For one, I would like to continue the naivety about the natural meritocracy of all sports players, however times have changed. Even at that, Lampley did point out that enhancement boosters have been used throughout the history of sports. The issue, at hand, is whether PED use is dangerous for the athlete using it, not so much for the athlete that it is being used against. As highlighted in the documentary, "Bigger, Stronger, Faster," the AMA of the United States was actually defending the safety of steroids before Congress. In actuality, the path to making steroid/PED use in America illegal was more or less a campaign of morality, rather than medical safety. True, sort of. Another reason they are banned is because of the adverse side-effects associated with long-term use, and also morality as you have stated.