Bert Sugar: Pacquiao is a Top-20 P4P All-Time Great

Thanks :), just re-read my posts, sorry if I came across a bit harsh lol, I've got strong opinions about Sugar is all. Answered the question before, will just quote Same goes for Floyd, I don't like rating current boxers on an all time level until their career is over. Alright.. It's all good man. You're one of the most sensible posters here. Cheers!:beerchug:

IF that's a big IF that he could beat Mayweather at 147---Pacquiao should be top 5.

Dayummm.. You seem to be very knowledgable in boxing. You're probably one of the 1%. :fing02: Do you have your list of ATG? Where will you put Mayweather and Pac? Thanks :), just re-read my posts, sorry if I came across a bit harsh lol, I've got strong opinions about Sugar is all. Answered the question before, will just quote Will rank him when his career is over. If I set to ranking him now I'll be holding him on a higher pedestal to everyone else and would probably lead to unfair judgment when he does retire, it's easier to do when it's all over and done with. Same goes for Floyd, I don't like rating current boxers on an all time level until their career is over.

I cannot see any reason for having Dempsey even in say a top 40 list and that's being generous, he has Bob Fitzsimmons at 63 who a lot of historians think have a legitimate argument for GOAT. Charles, Moore and Ray Leonard are 99.9% of the time in top 20 lists and rightfully so, but Bert says different, you're going to take his word over the majority of other boxing historians ?. Could cut deep into his list with most of the names on there but it would be a waste of time, it's already been taken apart by other historians and most of the time Sugar has no rebuttal. Said this plenty of times, Bert definitely knows his stuff and he has more resources then most people but he puts it all to waste, he just tell the media what they want and that's it, he has gladly put all of his knowledge aside just for his own bias plenty of times in the past. It's been well known for a long time that Sugars list is a train wreck. Edit: Btw I'm not doing this to discredit Pac in any way, it just makes me cringe whenever someone brings up Bert's list as a credible source or try to use it as a final word, if anything it's an insult to say someone like Dempsey and Marciano are ranked above Pac. Dayummm.. You seem to be very knowledgable in boxing. You're probably one of the 1%. :fing02: Do you have your list of ATG? Where will you put Mayweather and Pac?

I am no boxing historian so I can't answer that question. But if he put Dempsey and Marciano above Pac he has his reasons. Bert probably knows more about boxing than 99% of the us here. I cannot see any reason for having Dempsey even in say a top 40 list and that's being generous, he has Bob Fitzsimmons at 63 who a lot of historians think have a legitimate argument for GOAT. Charles, Moore and Ray Leonard are 99.9% of the time in top 20 lists and rightfully so, but Bert says different, you're going to take his word over the majority of other boxing historians ?. Could cut deep into his list with most of the names on there but it would be a waste of time, it's already been taken apart by other historians and most of the time Sugar has no rebuttal. Said this plenty of times, Bert definitely knows his stuff and he has more resources then most people but he puts it all to waste, he just tell the media what they want and that's it, he has gladly put all of his knowledge aside just for his own bias plenty of times in the past. It's been well known for a long time that Sugars list is a train wreck. Edit: Btw I'm not doing this to discredit Pac in any way, it just makes me cringe whenever someone brings up Bert's list as a credible source or try to use it as a final word, if anything it's an insult to say someone like Dempsey and Marciano are ranked above Pac.

Sugar is a media whore, his list is not very credible and has been made to look like a joke by people who question it. Before people start *****ing I have always had this opinion, even before Pacquaio was on the scene. 1) Ray Robinson 2) Hank Armstrong 3) Willie Pep 4) Joe Louis 5) Harry Greb 6) Benny Leonard 7) Muhammad Ali 8) Roberto Duran 9) Jack Dempsey 10) Jack Johnson 11) Mickey Walker 12) Tony Canzoneri 13) Gene Tunney 14) Rocky Marciano 15) Joe Gans 16) Sam Langford 17) Julio Cesar Chavez 18) Jimmy Wilde 19) Stanley Ketchel 20) Barney Ross That was his top 20 from a while ago, no Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Ray Leonard but he has Tunney, Marciano, Johnson and Dempsey there ?, and his list get worse as it goes further down. Sorry, I'm not buying anything that comes out of this guy's mouth. If you think this list is credible then are you saying that Dempsey and Marciano are greater then Pac ? I am no boxing historian so I can't answer that question. But if he put Dempsey and Marciano above Pac he has his reasons. Bert probably knows more about boxing than 99% of the us here.

bert sugar>>>>>>>>>>>>you! What?! Burner >>>>>>>>>> Bert Sugar. :liar:

How can marciano be as good as Pac? He beat a bad generation of heavyweights and he looks like Frankenstein movement wise to Pac?

Sugar is a media whore, his list is not very credible and has been made to look like a joke by people who question it. Before people start *****ing I have always had this opinion, even before Pacquaio was on the scene. 1) Ray Robinson 2) Hank Armstrong 3) Willie Pep 4) Joe Louis 5) Harry Greb 6) Benny Leonard 7) Muhammad Ali 8) Roberto Duran 9) Jack Dempsey 10) Jack Johnson 11) Mickey Walker 12) Tony Canzoneri 13) Gene Tunney 14) Rocky Marciano 15) Joe Gans 16) Sam Langford 17) Julio Cesar Chavez 18) Jimmy Wilde 19) Stanley Ketchel 20) Barney Ross That was his top 20 from a while ago, no Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Ray Leonard but he has Tunney, Marciano, Johnson and Dempsey there ?, and his list get worse as it goes further down. Sorry, I'm not buying anything that comes out of this guy's mouth. If you think this list is credible then are you saying that Dempsey and Marciano are greater then Pac ? This is all I could find on his list, Sugar Ray Robinson Henry Armstrong Willie Pep Joe Louis Harry Greb Benny Leonard Muhammad Ali Roberto Duran Jack Dempsey Jack Johnson Mickey Walker Tony Canzoneri Gene Tunney Rocky Marciano Joe Gans Sam Langford Julio Cesar Chavez Jimmy Wild Stanley Ketchel Barney Ross Jimmy McLarnin Archie Moore Marcel Cerdan Ezzard Charles Sugar Ray Leonard Joe Walcott Jake LaMptta Eder Jofre Emile Griffith Terry McGovern George Foreman Johnny Dundee Jose Napoles Pascual Perez Billy Conn Ruben Olivares Joe Frazier Tommy Loughran Sandy Saddler Kid Chocolate Abe Atell Evander Holyfield George Dixon Maxie Rosenbloom Larry Holmes Ted "Kid" Lewis Marvelous Marvin Hagler Pernell Whitaker Carlos Zarate Thomas Hearns Battling Nelson Beau Jack Ricardo Lopez John L. Sullivan Carlos Monzon Alexis Arguello Carmen Basilio Pete Herman Charley Burley Ike Williams Kid Gavilan Jack Britton Dick Tiger Pancho Villa Panama Al Brown Bob Fitzsimmons Philadelphia Jack O'Brien Tiger Flowers James J. Corbett Tony Zale Tommy Ryan Georges Carpentier Sonny Liston "Kid" McCoy Bob Foster Freddie Welsh Joe Jeannette Jim Driscoll Jersey Joe Walcott Peter Jackson Ad Wolgast Nonpareil Jack Dempsey Manuel Ortiz James J. Jeffries Salvador Sanchez Jimmy Barry Carlos Ortiz Roy Jones, Jr. Wilfredo Gomez Aaron Pryor Bernard Hopkins Mike Gibbons Jack Delaney Johnny Kilbane Willie Ritchie Wilfredo Benitez Packey McFarland Rocky Graziano Lew Jenkins Mike Tyson

Sugar is a media whore, his list is not very credible and has been made to look like a joke by people who question it. Before people start *****ing I have always had this opinion, even before Pacquaio was on the scene. 1) Ray Robinson 2) Hank Armstrong 3) Willie Pep 4) Joe Louis 5) Harry Greb 6) Benny Leonard 7) Muhammad Ali 8) Roberto Duran 9) Jack Dempsey 10) Jack Johnson 11) Mickey Walker 12) Tony Canzoneri 13) Gene Tunney 14) Rocky Marciano 15) Joe Gans 16) Sam Langford 17) Julio Cesar Chavez 18) Jimmy Wilde 19) Stanley Ketchel 20) Barney Ross That was his top 20 from a while ago, no Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Ray Leonard but he has Marciano, Johnson and Dempsey there ?, and his list get worse as it goes further down. Sorry, I'm not buying anything that comes out of this guy's mouth. If you think this list is credible then are you saying that Dempsey and Marciano are greater then Pac ?

Not even close to Top 20. No fighter from this era can replace anyone in the Top 20. bert sugar>>>>>>>>>>>>you!

Not even close to Top 20. No fighter from this era can replace anyone in the Top 20.

the greatest southpaw ever....defintely the best in my lifetime!....and this was in the cotto fight last year!

pac would be top 10 on both media and historians point of view, i said it on the other thread... w/c is why he will be top 10 for sure. i dont have one though ... im not even born yet when those legends fought

Top 20 is not bad