Firstly this is not a thread intended to incite a Flomo v Pactard war.:omfg: I am simply giving my opinion on the matter and putting it on the record so ppl know where i stand. I would appreciate some intelligent responses and/or rebuttals (i'm asking alot i know).
IMO....and it's not a popular one on here, i believe Pac is using EPO and HGH....or some combination of PED's. Their are various reasons why i believe this. Manny before moving to 135 had some wars with Morales, JMM and in his last few outings at that weight against various guys the wear and tear was starting to show.....and alot of guys (Jim Lampley being one) pointed this out......they thought his career was widing down....we are talking about a guy with 45+ fights who has been in ring wars.
Now Pac from early 2008 to the end of 2009 went from being a 130 pounder to a welterweight. This is a very short period of time. He did this whilst maintaining his speed and increasing his power, stamina and punch resistance. This is very very unusual for a fighter moving up multiple weight divisions over a long period of time.........but in this short a time frame it is damn near impossible. Before moving up one would say Pac had very good power. However i am suspect as to how a boxer who fought a fight at 130 pounds in March of 2008 and did not have devastating one punch KO power can seriously hurt natural welters who rehydrate to 160 plus with a single punch and how he can also consistently take multiple punches from them. Remember this is a guy who was rocked by JMM and Morales etc at 130 and he was hitting JMM alot and despite the KD's wasn't as powerful or as effective as he was against say Hatton and Cotto.
It may surprise people to learn Pac has a KO% of 68%. As a comparison Floyd Mayweather has a KO% of about 60% and SSM has about 74%. So we know he is a very good puncher, but this number hardly tells us that he could move from 130 to 147 in a little under 2 years and hurt naturally bigger men more than he was able to hurt 130 punders and below. Power may increase overall as you move up, but relative to the weight class you are in it tends to have less effect on the bigger men as you move up.
Floyd Mayweather as a comparison has been a welterweight for 5+ years and only recently has his body grown into the weight, after a stay at 135 that lasted 4 fights and 140 that lasted 3 fights.....in essence he has moved up slowly and gradually. He has slowed down considerably and his relative power has decreased....he isn't hurting or KOing bigger guys as easily as he did qith guys at 30, 35 or even 40. This is expected. He has also taken less wear and tear than Pac has. Pac grew into a ripped and full fledged welter from 130 pounds after only one fight at 135.......one......he also had a single fight at 140. So a guy who was in drag them out wars at 130 with the likes of JMM, Morales etc and who was looking worse for wear and had a hard time with Larios at 130 goes all the way up from 130 to 147 in under 2 years and is faster, stronger, hits harder and has increased punch resistance than he ever had????? :dunno:
Now let me just say PED's are efffective when used in sports. You need to look no further than a Barry Bonds smash the MLB home run record......if i'm not mistaken the guys on the list right behind him, Sosa and McGwire broke the home run record set in 1961 were also admitted PED users. Bonds best years as a MLB player was prob from 2001 to 2004.......incidentally he was was subsequently indicted in 07 for perjury stemming from 03 grand jury proceedings in the BALCO affair......so his best seasons coincide directly with the timeline in whihc he was taking PED's. Marion Jones is another example of the effectiveness of PED's....there are many many more.
Now i could believe all of this............however this is a man who has rejected something as trivial and simple (and yes it is trivial and simple) as random OST to make the biggest fight in history happen and to also earn his biggest payday ever. After the news that OST was the impediment to this fight happening his team were one of the most incohenrent and incohesive units you could witness.......can you say panic anyone??? There was a bunch of lame and downright silly excuses given as to why nOST was a problem...these include:
- superstition
- Pac is afraid of needles
- Blood draining (weakens him)
- Floyd being bigger than Pac is a disadvantage if blood is drawn.
- Floyd is not the commission
- Drawing blood can cause injury
Now all of these reasons are stupid full stop. We have debated over and over on this site and we all know the arguments. Personally i have yet to see even a semi-convincing reason against better testing protocols in combat sports.....and no.....Floyd hurting Pac's feelings is not a reason.
Let's not forget Ariza's comments aswell, and also suspicions raised by other boxers aswell as Lou Dibella's comments on the peculiarities on how Pac's training camps are conducted. Fredie Roach has also trained numerous fighters in the past who have used PED's and Roach knew this. Now to top off this circus act Pac has filed a lawsuit against the Mayweathers claiming defemation of character....a move that has been done by others who have subsequently been found out.......from a boxing persepctive think SSM.
And let me just add further....if this was anyone else but Manny Pacquaio the media would be savaging this person......but for whatever reason everyone in the boxing media is a bit intoxicated with Pac right now, and i suspect that the fact these accusations came from Floyd Mayweather Jr don't help, given the media and boxing establishment can't handle a loud mouthed cocky black guy who calls his own shots.
On a final note the media and many fans may be siding with Pac right now, but 10 years from now when OST is the norm for all championship fights poeple are going to start to wonder why Pac was making such a fuss over something so simple.....and i believe if the fight doesn't happen as time goes on Floyd Mayweather Jr's legacy will be recognised as being greater than that of Manny Pacquaio's.
iss a new drug out??. Did ariza found a new undetected drug like the one mosley was using?? Who offer this drugs??? Do they know who to contact???
hmmmm ??????????
Don't give him all the answers... most people just spew BS they hear... THat "mailman" was also a mandatory for one of the SEVEN belts Roy held, and he would have been stripped if he didn't face him.
lol
I only gave him one answer the rest where for other fighters who fought abysmal opposition
My reasons Pac is NOT on PEDs and is simply a man whose too good for his own good. FACT: He was struggling to make weight before he fought JMM the 2nd time. Could that be why he was rocked by JMM BUT never dropped..? What was his fight weight for the last 3 years? All within 5lbs of each other...When you take PEDs or any steroid, you are PHYSICALLY strong. You can push around people easier and move them where you want them. In all of Pac's WW fights, he's never pushed or moved around his opponent. Infact it's been the complete opposite. Cotto at times turned Pac around like a ragdoll and Hatton was able to hold onto Pac and bear hug him with force many a times. This is one of the biggest reasons and a former PED user my boss at work says. When your on PEDs, you can physically move people around like they are nothing. Pac shows no signs of this whatso ever. As for him hurting guys? The man is one of the greatest offensive fighters that ever lived. I'm sure he knows how to throw a punch...
u didnt answer have u ever had to make weight? do u know how weak it makes you,pac is at his full strenth lately where as he was'nt before...so by ur response ur answer to both questions is no i give up
pAC ISNT REHYDRATING BACK UP WITH WATER WEIGHT, THATS TEH THING, PAC IS LEAN AND MUSCULAR.
You must understand the difference. It was a clown on here talking to me about cotto a week ago, and he couldnt grasp teh samething. WATER WEIGHT AND MUSCLE WEIGHT OR FAT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
YOU CANT PUT ON 12 POUNDS OF FAT IN 2 DAYS, BUT YOU CAN REHYDRATE, BUT PAC IS ONCE AGAIN LEAN!!!
LEAN AND MUSCULAR, AND THAT HEAD IS BIG AS HELL.
AND FOR THE RECORD, I have had to make weight before, and it was totally different as PAC IS LEAN AND MUSCULAR. I WOULD BE WEAK WHILE MAKING WEIGHT, BUT I LOOKED LEAN AND MUSCULAR, BUT I WOULD REHYDRATE.
According to the Male Nurses, Floyd is a cherrypicking, cowardly pussy with feather-fists and a glass jaw. Yet, they want - no, NEED - Pac to fight him.
Just the world we live in now.
Floyd is a cherrypicking, cowardly pussy. I won't lose sleep if the fight never happens. Maybe Roach would. But Pac has plan A and plan B. We fans could still see him fight without Fraud Jr. Fraud Jr's plan A is retirement.
I just hope Fraud would disappear to put a stop to this OST garbage. All fights have been happening without it. Fans are okay with it, including Flomos.
I think IMDAZED is on something... who can possibly debate this BS day in and out all day long?
Wtf are you on, son?
You just got put on ignore.
How did that work out for you?
You can't.
True story. :D
:rofl: :rofl:
Although what you say here is true, you're leaving out a few factors.
Pacman's balance and punching technique has greatly improved under Roach's guidance. The secret to Pacman's power lies in leverage and speed, which he has more or less kept going up through the weight classes.
Remember that the formula for power is mass x acceleration. Keeping the same speed while increasing mass (weight), will increase your punching power. Gaining weight will also increase the body's ability to sustain/absorb punishment.
Strengthening your neck and shoulder area will increase your ability to absorb a blow on the physical level. I believe that a great deal of one's ability to absorb punches is mental, that you decide to not allow yourself to get knocked out.
At least that's what George Chuvalo said, and he should know :)
Another factor has more to do with a lack of weight draining than use of drugs when it comes to the "resurgence" of Pacquiao's physicality, I think.
Being 1% water drained equals to about 10% reduction in physical endurance and performance...
Which again is why Cotto looked dead slow and very vulnerable against Pacman.
I don't think Floyd has slowed down considerably due to going up. I think he has changed his style to suit the slower, more powerful foes he's facing, as well as a reflection of the change in personality as he grows older. More safety-minded, more calculated and clinical, but no less effective due to his extraordinarily good timing- which has always been his "key", coupled with his great vision.
I don't think Pac has been tested enough as a welterweight to declare his chin or power to be better or worse. Some of his welterweight opponents were weightdrained as hell (Oscar and Cotto) and one just refused to hit him.
Floyd would test those areas, and I think Floyd would be too strong and too accurate for Pacquiao.
Those reasons are stupid, indeed.
I think Pacman isn't very very interested in fighting Floyd. More so than I think he is juicing.
Perhaps you are right. Maybe the public is being kind because it's the pacman. It's certainly a factor that the demands comes from Floyd, which every single reasonable human being just cannot stand outside the ring.
The way I see it, there are two possibilities here;
Either Pacman is roiding, or he is very special. We can easily find out, but Pac is refusing.
I think it might be one out of two reasons;
Either Pac doesn't really wanna fight floyd.
Or he is jucing...
good points...........see this is what i was hopng for.....this makes me think harder about my opinions.
Thakns.
It dont fuken matter why how when or what , it matters that he has refused thats what is making Pac look like a cheat because avoiding testing solidifys the rumours and accusations , for all you know somebody on the inside could have said he knows Pac is juicing we dont fuken know , all we know is one asked for it and one refused , refusing to my way of thinking is looking very guilty and is the reason why he needs to be tested more than ever .
Why brought it up just now? he has been fighting for years , did'nt he? why all of sudden??
Its all garbage accusations at this point. Some have been caught recently using all kinds of things to help them win fights. Hell, some of them still lost the fight. There are some fighters out there that jump up and down in weight classes and had succeses like duran. His hands of stone gave most of his opponents something to look out for. Why was he not accused of steroids then? are we going to accuse him now?? All kinds of atletes were getting busted with these steroids in their system around late 90' and early 2000. George Foreman gain morethan 50 pounds in his carrer, is he guilty too? Floyd started at lightweight in his carrer and fought as high as middleweight, he must be roiding also. Floyd have had problems with his hands in his carrer to the point of him actually taking a knee in a fight after hitting his opponent. We don't see that now and I think thats why he is so paranoid in facing pacquiao.
It dont fuken matter why how when or what , it matters that he has refused thats what is making Pac look like a cheat because avoiding testing solidifys the rumours and accusations , for all you know somebody on the inside could have said he knows Pac is juicing we dont fuken know , all we know is one asked for it and one refused , refusing to my way of thinking is looking very guilty and is the reason why he needs to be tested more than ever .
Its all garbage accusations at this point. Some have been caught recently using all kinds of things to help them win fights. Hell, some of them still lost the fight. There are some fighters out there that jump up and down in weight classes and had succeses like duran. His hands of stone gave most of his opponents something to look out for. Why was he not accused of steroids then? are we going to accuse him now?? All kinds of atletes were getting busted with these steroids in their system around late 90' and early 2000. George Foreman gain morethan 50 pounds in his carrer, is he guilty too? Floyd started at lightweight in his carrer and fought as high as middleweight, he must be roiding also. Floyd have had problems with his hands in his carrer to the point of him actually taking a knee in a fight after hitting his opponent. We don't see that now and I think thats why he is so paranoid in facing pacquiao.
you ain't got my poin man! he was incredibly talented but he didn't do enough in my book. its sort of like Michael Nunn, had he been hungrier and more passionate we'd probably be talking about an all time great, you feel me?
Didn't do enough?
He beat Bernard HOPKINS AT MW...
Let me guess Bernard was "green"... yeah... he also didn't lose for 12 years after Roy beat him.
He moved UP IN WEIGHT, and beat the #1 fighter in the division and P4P #3, 44-0 James Toney.
He moved UP IN WEIGHT AGAIN... and unified 7 LHW titles, and beat 7 of the top 10 ranked LHWs.
Guess what? at 35, he moved up in weight again... packed on 20lbs, and fought someone who still outweighed him by 30lbs... beat him took his HW title.
Then shrunk himself back down to LHW.. and beat the #1 ranked LHW... at 35 years old, and with 50 professional fights.
And he didnt do enough?
Read a book, son.
you ain't got my poin man! he was incredibly talented but he didn't do enough in my book. its sort of like Michael Nunn, had he been hungrier and more passionate we'd probably be talking about an all time great, you feel me?
He didn't do enough? You're right. He prob could've been a top 5 all-timer. But top 15-30 ain't bad either.
Why haven't you asked Bernard why they didn't fight?
And McClellan...? Really?
Come on, bud.
you ain't got my poin man! he was incredibly talented but he didn't do enough in my book. its sort of like Michael Nunn, had he been hungrier and more passionate we'd probably be talking about an all time great, you feel me?
the dude was gifted as hell but a big waste of time, why aint he fight Hopkins atleast 5 years before they did?
too bad Geral McClelan wasn't around, too bad with his tragedy, i loved watching that kid now he was on his way to greatness and roy jones would've been a victim along the way
Why haven't you asked Bernard why they didn't fight?
And McClellan...? Really?
Come on, bud.
Nah man. YOU musta forgot.
the dude was gifted as hell but a big waste of time, why aint he fight Hopkins atleast 5 years before they did?
too bad Geral McClelan wasn't around, too bad with his tragedy, i loved watching that kid now he was on his way to greatness and roy jones would've been a victim along the way