FAO: PED experts.

HGH will not benefit an athlete with those conditions... HGH has to be taken during off season hence the reason they test for it year-round, definitely not the case here. In another thread I was in, someone mentioned HBOC, which is a modern form of EPO (Blood Doping). Which my guess is it is used for extra conditioning (stamina) and I'm not sure if it's beneficial within a 20/24 days window with a risk of being caught.

can somebody give a good analysis of HGH because if Pac were to be on PEDs. I'd think he would be on HGH. The reason i think that is because if you take a good look at his Head size and how proportional it is to his body. His Head is GINORMOUS compared to his body size ratio. i personally like him as a fighter and don't want to believe that he's on steroids, but when i look at how much bigger his head has grown....so please let me know what's up with HGH and if it can be detected during urine tests or blood tests? HGH has never been proven to cause changes in the size of one's head. It's a myth, HGH does however cause something called "HGH gut". Do a google search to see what it looks like. Most Pro bodybuilders have it, basically looks like a pot belly but with ab muscles instead of fat.

Whether it's 20 days or 200 days, regardless of the benefits, it's still cheating. if he's using PED's that won't do shit to him, then why do it anyways?

how can HGH benefit the fighter when he uses it more than 20 days prior to a fight? Whether it's 20 days or 200 days, regardless of the benefits, it's still cheating.

can somebody give a good analysis of HGH because if Pac were to be on PEDs. I'd think he would be on HGH. The reason i think that is because if you take a good look at his Head size and how proportional it is to his body. His Head is GINORMOUS compared to his body size ratio. i personally like him as a fighter and don't want to believe that he's on steroids, but when i look at how much bigger his head has grown....so please let me know what's up with HGH and if it can be detected during urine tests or blood tests? Read the article I posted.

can somebody give a good analysis of HGH because if Pac were to be on PEDs. I'd think he would be on HGH. The reason i think that is because if you take a good look at his Head size and how proportional it is to his body. His Head is GINORMOUS compared to his body size ratio. i personally like him as a fighter and don't want to believe that he's on steroids, but when i look at how much bigger his head has grown....so please let me know what's up with HGH and if it can be detected during urine tests or blood tests?

care to pick this apart? Pick what apart? You can read Ryannn, do so. The experts explained everything in detail.

Your incredible. Im done with you man. Seriously. You gotta know when to hold em and know when to fold em. that old saying applies to you. i haven't made any claims on this thread. merely repeating what previous posters have posted. if you can prove that full blown ost is necessary, given the fact that urine tests all the way with 3 blood test would bring any benefit to a fighter, then more power to you.

http://www.************.com/2010/02/the-experts-on-testing-for-peds/ End the thread. if youre referring to the victor conte quote then yes but he didnt really say anything about cutoff dates ... he mainly touch upon the fact that blood testing is valid but not because of what everyone thinks or wat mainly flomos think- it's an all PED detecting test he mainly iterated that blood testing can be a way IF USED RANDOMLY to indirectly show the use of EPO by detecting a 50% rise of hemocratic or redbloodcell level when compared to the baseline blood sample regarded as "clean" of the tested athlete its also the only way to catch blood dopers but thats got nothing to do with pac and peds u saw the quote, he said HGH is pretty much useless to test 4 other than that he just stressed the fact that this blood test needs to be random because in his experience, the athletes he supplied peds to exploited a "loophole" where they r given leeway to miss 2 test out of a year for watever personal reason(sickness, death of the family, etc) and tats an opportunity to flush the peds out of your system, i dont think this will happen between may and manny i think his opinions are valid when u look at blood testing at the olympic level,first theyre tested only a couple of times during the year.. so its like 1-3 maybe 6? blood test for a whole 12 months, in the context of that timeline, an announce testing couple with the fact they were given opportunities to pass up test gave them time to flush out the peds for that day and then go back and be on it for the rest of the year, this is alot of time to fully take advantage and reap the benefits of PEDS and still beat the drug testers, you can even be on a 6 month cycle of ped usage and be clean for the rest of 6.. and only use your 2 excused drugtesting absences when ur on it... it really gives athletes flexibility to cheat, u guess conte just want them to barge in on an athlete unannounce and not give them a day notice where they can come up with an excuse not to take the test but in a 9 week window of time testing, thats basically how long may and pac will train.. there's really no need to stress randomization, especially with the introduction of an everyday urine test , even if the blood test was announce even of it being random in the timeline of 9 weeks, there's no way you can fully take advantage of the EPO mircera unless you use it for the whole 9 weeks here's a scenario..supposed u know u will be tested at the beginning of training, the way to beat that then is to use mircera epo a day later, now..if they announce they will do a blood test 38 days later, youre basically screwed...there's no way around it isuppose then... you wait and use it 1 day after the 2nd test, by that time,youre already 60% into training... and its 23 days away from the fight, basically you will not reap any benefits from it during training at all to give u .. it might help ur endurance on fight night though and you will definitely be detected for 3 weeks right after the fight if you ever used it basically the scenario i posted is wat pac first proposed, blood test beginning of training, blood test 30 days b4 the fight and blood test right after the fight.. its PED PROOF the only thing i can discern from his comments is tht they were probably using some peds that have a 24 hour detection time and those are usually anabolic steroids that urine detect or THE CLEAR.. which urine can NOW detect but if victor knew the fact that there's unlimited everyday urine testing, then he knows there's no reason to stress randomization of blood testing because an everyday urine test is basically unbeatable i think he also said something about PEDS having to be out of your system completely by fighttime to have maximum efficiency in order for it to work to your advantage care to pick this apart?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/29/sports/29hgh.html please read the link again hgh can only be caught within 24-48 hrs of use. your question was what cant be caught with 3 blood tests and infinite urine tests. read the damn article. facts son what? THAT WOULD YIELD ANY BENEFIT TO A FIGHTER im not questioning that HGH can only be detected in blood. i was wondering what good it would do...

http://www.************.com/2010/02/the-experts-on-testing-for-peds/ By Alexander Fugate: Testing athletes for illegal PEDs, especially HGH, is again making headlines. This time because of reports that British Rugby player Terry Newton has tested positive for HGH, through a random blood test. He did not dispute the tests result and has received a two-year suspension. Now, Major League Baseball (MLB) has expressed a desire to test minor league players for HGH this year. MLB also wishes to test major league players but need to reach an agreement with the MLB Player’s Association before implementing any new testing. The National Football League (NFL) also wants to begin blood tests on its players for HGH. The NFL reportedly made a proposal regarding HGH last month and discussions are said to be ongoing. Drug testing for PEDs was also recently in the news as the reason for the collapse of the proposed mega-fight between Floyd Mayweather Jr. and Manny Pacquiao. There seems to be some confusion among boxing fans on testing for PEDs. Following is a look at what the experts have to say on testing, and exploring the effectiveness of different methods of testing, especially in regards to boxing. There are two illegal PEDs, HGH and EPO, which seem to be at the heart of this discussion. Let’s first start with HGH and the current testing available. In an article by Josh Slagter of The Grand Rapids Press, Travis Tygert head of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), was recently quoted as saying, “Both urine and blood tests are needed to determine if a fighter is clean.” He continued: “There is no urine-based test for human-growth hormone.” Supporting this believe is an article dated January 3, 2010 at ringtalk.com. In it the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) Director General David Howman says, “’A number of substances and methods banned by WADA’s list of Prohibited Substances and Methods, including HGH, are currently only detectable through blood testing.” The confusion on testing for HGH stems from a 2008 report, indicating two professors at George Mason University developed a urine test that was thought to be able to detect HGH. Ceres Nanosciences has licensed this process and the USADA, MLB, and NFL have provided hundreds of thousands of dollars to further this technology. At the head of the research, have been long time anti-doping expert Dr. Don Caitlin and Professor Lance Liotta- who is one of the two that initially developed this testing. Despite the massive funding and studies, Dr. Don Caitlin, told Newsday, on Wednesday February 24, 2010, “Our work has shown we are not going to be able to detect human growth hormone in urine.” This is very clear that there is urine test to detect HGH. This also explains why the MLB and the NFL are pushing for random blood tests on their respective athletes to ensure a level playing field. These two organizations have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to help develop a urine test. The statements of Dr. Caitlin, along with those of various anti-doping agencies and experts, and the recent positive test of Terry Newman have apparently convinced them that random blood testing is currently the only way to detect HGH. Now on to EPO. EPO is one type of blood doping. Blood doping is illicitly increasing one’s red blood cell supply. Red blood cells supply oxygen to the body’s muscles. Thus, an increased red blood cell supply reduces fatigue by delivering oxygen to the muscles more efficiently. This is why blood doping is one of the most logical illegal means of gaining an advantage in boxing. Training at high altitudes is a licit means of increasing red blood cells and endurance. This is why Big Bear is a favorite training camp of many great fighters. While it’s true that a urine analysis alone can detect synthetic EPO, many agencies still use blood tests in addition to the urine tests. The reason for this is simple economics; a blood test that determines if a red blood cell count is unusually high is less than a quarter of the price of a urine test. This is why many anti-doping agencies only perform a urine test for EPO if their blood test indicates suspicious red blood cell levels. Although more expensive a urine test is sufficient to detect synthetic EPO. However, there are other types of blood doping, some more effective than EPO. Victor Conte, of BALCO infamy, developed and helped create PEDs. He also helped athletes schedule their use of PEDs to avoid detection. He told Doghouseboxing.com, “’blood testing for the Pacquiao-Mayweather fight is…important for detecting possible blood doping or use of EPO…measuring hematocrit levels (percentage of red blood cells to total whole blood volume) is very important. For example, even without a positive urine test for EPO, cyclists are temporarily suspended for two weeks if their hematocrit is greater than 50%. An elevated hematocrit can provide a significant advantage to a fighter by enhancing oxygen uptake and utilization. This would benefit a fighter during training and especially during the later rounds of fights.’” One other type of blood doping, besides EPO, is homologous blood transfusion. This is when an athlete receives an injection of red blood cells from someone with the same blood type of themselves. This is accomplished by the blood being drawn from someone with the same blood type of the aspiring athelete. Next the blood is sent through a centrifuge. The centrifuge isolates the red blood cells. Then the red blood cells can be transfused into the athlete. This is detectable but only through blood testing. This blood testing has been effective and numerous athletes have been caught through it. Synthetic oxygen carriers are yet another form of blood doping. One form of these is hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers (HBOCs). It’s been reported these increase exercise capacity better than EPO. Urine testing cannot be effective in detecting HBOCs, due to the fact that not all HBOCs are excreted by the kidney. However, HBOCs can be detected through blood tests. Due to the fact that it’s believed to be more effective than EPO and can only be detected through blood tests, this has to be very appealing to any boxer looking for an extra advantage. Also at the heart of the dispute between Mayweather and Pacquiao is the issue of whether the blood tests should be random or on pre-determined dates. The aforementioned Mr. Slagter, of The Grand Rapids Press, reported, “Dr. Gary Wadler, an internal medicine physician and chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s Prohibited List and Methods sub-committee, supported Tygert’s position. Wadler believes, ‘It (the testing for PEDS) would lose all its validity if the athlete could pick and choose when he is going to be tested… and how he’s going to be tested. They’re sophisticated enough now that if someone wanted to, you could play the calendar to your advantage.’” Echoing this sentiment was Victor Conte in his interview at doghouseboxing.com when he said “for these substances to be utilized at their maximum efficiency, they must be properly cycled and be out of your system by the time the competition begins.” He also insists that announced testing is practically worthless and testing needs to be random to be effective. This helps explain, both the need for random testing and why a blood test immediately after the fight by itself is insufficient. The experts on anti-doping appear to be very clear. The only current method of detecting HGH is through blood tests. Various forms of blood doping would be extremely useful to boxers. Some forms of blood doping can only be detected through blood analysis. Testing on known dates is ineffective, and random testing is needed to help deter and catch athletes using illegal PEDs. A test immediately after a contest is wholly insufficient if there is an absence of effective testing during training. These are the views and sentiments of anti-doping experts. End the thread.

In a minute, I will end this thread. All questions will be answered, and you're spamming will no longer be necessary. Give me a minute. do it then... The thing with EPO is it alters certain things in your blood, making it thicker and chock full of oxygen carrying blood cells, it alters what your blood "looks like" under a microscope in layman's terms. What confuses me is how people think Manny can some how take EPO in those few weeks (14-20 days) to boost his performance without being busted by the blood test he offered to take 5 minutes after the fight. You see, part of the USADA testing is taking and preserving the blood it samples from athletes, so the USADA would simply just have to compare the blood they took in the random testing before the cutoff date with the blood they'll sample straight after the fight. IF there are any differences it will be obvious. I fully agree....... That's why there is a procedure that the olympic committe adapted and they tested it in the last winter olympics, where in they administered the first blood testing for EPO way before the top athletes hits training camp. And then once again during training, and the last is when the athletes hits the olympic village already. With this procedure they can compare blood samples of a particular athlete when they were in normal condition, upto the time of their training and competing when athletes are in their hyper conditions already, this way abnormal levels of EPO can easily be detected. Manny and Floyd usually go through 12 weeks of training before a big fight, so a random blood test on the week of contract negotiation/signing, then again in the middle of training, then last one right after the fight would be sufficient enough for the EPO tests......... if youre referring to the victor conte quote then yes but he didnt really say anything about cutoff dates ... he mainly touch upon the fact that blood testing is valid but not because of what everyone thinks or wat mainly flomos think- it's an all PED detecting test he mainly iterated that blood testing can be a way IF USED RANDOMLY to indirectly show the use of EPO by detecting a 50% rise of hemocratic or redbloodcell level when compared to the baseline blood sample regarded as "clean" of the tested athlete its also the only way to catch blood dopers but thats got nothing to do with pac and peds u saw the quote, he said HGH is pretty much useless to test 4 other than that he just stressed the fact that this blood test needs to be random because in his experience, the athletes he supplied peds to exploited a "loophole" where they r given leeway to miss 2 test out of a year for watever personal reason(sickness, death of the family, etc) and tats an opportunity to flush the peds out of your system, i dont think this will happen between may and manny i think his opinions are valid when u look at blood testing at the olympic level,first theyre tested only a couple of times during the year.. so its like 1-3 maybe 6? blood test for a whole 12 months, in the context of that timeline, an announce testing couple with the fact they were given opportunities to pass up test gave them time to flush out the peds for that day and then go back and be on it for the rest of the year, this is alot of time to fully take advantage and reap the benefits of PEDS and still beat the drug testers, you can even be on a 6 month cycle of ped usage and be clean for the rest of 6.. and only use your 2 excused drugtesting absences when ur on it... it really gives athletes flexibility to cheat, u guess conte just want them to barge in on an athlete unannounce and not give them a day notice where they can come up with an excuse not to take the test but in a 9 week window of time testing, thats basically how long may and pac will train.. there's really no need to stress randomization, especially with the introduction of an everyday urine test , even if the blood test was announce even of it being random in the timeline of 9 weeks, there's no way you can fully take advantage of the EPO mircera unless you use it for the whole 9 weeks here's a scenario..supposed u know u will be tested at the beginning of training, the way to beat that then is to use mircera epo a day later, now..if they announce they will do a blood test 38 days later, youre basically screwed...there's no way around it isuppose then... you wait and use it 1 day after the 2nd test, by that time,youre already 60% into training... and its 23 days away from the fight, basically you will not reap any benefits from it during training at all to give u .. it might help ur endurance on fight night though and you will definitely be detected for 3 weeks right after the fight if you ever used it basically the scenario i posted is wat pac first proposed, blood test beginning of training, blood test 30 days b4 the fight and blood test right after the fight.. its PED PROOF the only thing i can discern from his comments is tht they were probably using some peds that have a 24 hour detection time and those are usually anabolic steroids that urine detect or THE CLEAR.. which urine can NOW detect but if victor knew the fact that there's unlimited everyday urine testing, then he knows there's no reason to stress randomization of blood testing because an everyday urine test is basically unbeatable i think he also said something about PEDS having to be out of your system completely by fighttime to have maximum efficiency in order for it to work to your advantage

Preach the truth brother. I know it hurts them but it has to be done. want more vaseline leonard?

Lonebum already answered your question. HGH can be cleared from the system within 24-48 hours. Hence the need for random based testing. yes, this was previously posted... and posters have questioned the benefits a fighter would get within a 9-week training period. Originally Posted by CRlSIS I agree. Here's a quote from an article saying exactly what you stated "Recombinant hGH (rhGH), when given to GH-deficient individuals, has been found to increase exercise time and VO2max after 6 months of treatment . Increased body muscle mass, decreased body fat, increased cardiac output, and improved wound healing has been described . In contrast, no significant effects on muscle strength or muscle protein synthesis have been reported in controlled clinical trials of healthy non-exercising young men or athletes given supraphysiological doses of rhGH . ....Reportedly, it seems that athletes use hGH for long periods of time with supratherapeutic doses or in combination with other doping substances such as AAS. hGH appears to act synergistically when used in tandem with steroids, thus having an effect, albeit indirect, on muscle anabolism and athletic performance .

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion. Though a guarantee you'd have a much easier time boxing for 36 minutes as opposed to cycling for 2200 miles. hatton on may 5th 2009 would disagree. And for arguements sake, I think ali, joe louis, certain Dun Koo Sim, wouldve rather had the punishment from riding out 2200 miles rather than then physical damage they went through in boxing.

In a minute, I will end this thread. All questions will be answered, and you're spamming will no longer be necessary. Give me a minute.

im talking in general. You may burn more calories cycling, but you wont get a concussion or a broken eye socket would you. Theres a reason you need a cut man in the corner in between rounds in boxing, its physically more taxing on the body. but now were breaking in tangents. If cycling was more physically taxing, then you would see the same long term affects as boxing, but there simply isnt. Okay, you're entitled to your opinion. Though a guarantee you'd have a much easier time boxing for 36 minutes as opposed to cycling for 2200 miles.

Are we talking about long term damage, or singular events in which blood test are supposedly supposed to have negative affects on an athletes performance. If were talking about which sport is more damaging long term? Than boxing hands down. If we're talking about which sport is more physically taxing, as in which is harder on the body in a singular event? It's Cycling. im talking in general. You may burn more calories cycling, but you wont get a concussion or a broken eye socket would you. Theres a reason you need a cut man in the corner in between rounds in boxing, its physically more taxing on the body. but now were breaking in tangents. If cycling was more physically taxing, then you would see the same long term affects as boxing, but there simply isnt.

After awhile, he'll begin ducking his own thread. why the **** would i duck this thread? i haven't made any claims. i haven't posted any information about PED's here myself. others have pointed out why its unnecessary to go through such tests. any argument you have for the full blown OST i can deal with...

amateurs only fight twice a year? and we can do this without the name calling. i think it has been established that HGH, EPO, are detectable only in blood testing. my question is why it isn't enough for 3 blood tests and unlimited urine test to ensure one is not cheating. some of those who posted here said its basically useless to try to cheat with such tests. Lonebum already answered your question. HGH can be cleared from the system within 24-48 hours. Hence the need for random based testing.