Prime Hopkins also would of beaten Jones in a rematch ..........

Dynamite Kid Prior to meeting Hopkins, Pavlik usually averaged 77-85 punches per round. How can you say that he was tailor made for Hopkins? Pavlik didn't throw 'cause he couldn't find Bernard. Pavlik doesn't do well against mobile fighters and Hopkins is a master at taking your best weapons away. Pavlik was fighting at Bernard's pace but that doesn't say that he was "tailor made" for Hopkins. We'll see how Pavlik will look against Martinez, because Gabriel Sarmiento said that Hopkins showed the blueprint on how to beat Kelly Pavlik. Because he leaves himself wide open as he sells himself with the right hand and his Arsenal consists of a double jab right hand and not much else, he also comes in straight lines. When he fought Hopkins he went up in weight and was not throwing 77-85 punches per round as he was being countered when he let his hands go, although id also argue the weight effected him to a degree. Pavlik was always tailor made for Hopkins stylistically but many people assumed Hopkins would have trouble because he had shown in the Calzaghe fight that his stamina had diminished, i and many others anticipated Pavlik would win because of those stats you posted "77-85 punches per round" and because of Hopkins inactivity in the Calzaghe fight, not necessarily because Pavlik was the better fighter, Hopkins held most if not all of the stylistic advantages but his lack of workrate and Pavlik's high workrate was anticipated to be the deciding factor, it wasn't in the end and he lost because without that workrate he actually was tailor made for Hopkins, we knew that before the fight but just were not confident due to Hopkins fight with Joe(stamina)

roy jones wiped the floor with toney at his best weight toney hadn't done shit, and i mean anything whatsoever to warrant a rematch and as soon as jones moved up to lhw, after a while toney would move out of the divison to cw Don't reply when you obviously haven't paid attention to what I've written. Best weight? Didn't warrant for a rematch? He was considered to be the P4P best in that year.

Dynamite Kid Prior to meeting Hopkins, Pavlik usually averaged 77-85 punches per round. How can you say that he was tailor made for Hopkins? Pavlik didn't throw 'cause he couldn't find Bernard. Pavlik doesn't do well against mobile fighters and Hopkins is a master of taking your best weapons away and neutralize it, like he did with Tarver and Tarver was still dangerous. Pavlik was fighting at Bernard's pace and Bernard's fight but that doesn't mean that he was "tailor made" for Hopkins. We'll see how Pavlik will look against Martinez, because Gabriel Sarmiento said that Hopkins showed the blueprint on how to beat Kelly Pavlik.

After Toney fought (Prince) Charles Williams (in the end of July in which he also struggled to make 168 lbs), he was set to move on to the heavyweight division. However, after the Williams fight it was announced that he would defend his title against Roy, which he accepted. Toney was a true throwback. He averaged 3 fights per year. He never said no to fight anyone no matter what condition he was in. Roy never responded to Toney's constant call outs. I think it's pointless to say that the one is better than the other. All three of them are great fighters and deserve to be in the hall of fame and called "all time greats". roy jones wiped the floor with toney at his best weight toney hadn't done shit, and i mean anything whatsoever to warrant a rematch and as soon as jones moved up to lhw, after a while toney would move out of the divison to cw

When did the Jones camp offer Toney the fight? After Toney fought (Prince) Charles Williams (in the end of July in which he also struggled to make 168 lbs), he was set to move on to the heavyweight division. However, after the Williams fight it was announced that he would defend his title against Roy, which he accepted. Toney was a true throwback. He averaged 3 fights per year. He never said no to fight anyone no matter what condition he was in. Roy never responded to Toney's constant call outs. I think it's pointless to say that the one is better than the other. All three of them are great fighters and deserve to be in the hall of fame and called "all time greats".

Agree, then again Shane Mosley's reflexes looked terrible against Mayorga , irrespective of the weight, however they looked on point against Margarito and poor against Miguel Cotto imo, not to say i think his reflexes were that good in the Margarito fight but that against the right type of opponent they seem okay, maybe that is why he had his way with Marg and his reflexes did not look as bad, same way Hopkins's did not look bad in the Pavlik fight, Pavlik was tailor made for his style. I think the most relevant point is that older fighters are inconsistent, their performances level go up and down, Ornelas fight can be attributed to that imo, although id agree his reflexes did look slower in that fight, its to be expected though imo, he is getting older day by day when all said and done, not to say i think he had particularly good reflexes against Pavlik though, he had a fighter that was not throwing many punches who was tailor made for his style. You have a good point about older fighters being inconsistent, but then again Hopkins isn't known to have hot and cold moments, he's been one of the sports most consistent performers for years but you might be right about that. About the styles, I would think Ornelas' style was tailor made for Hopkins to look great as well.

As I said, everybody's different. I think he still had good reflexes in the Pavlik fight, you need to have good reflexes to be able to take advantage of the openings that your opponents leave for you and to be able to roll, slip, slide from shots, some of it is technique and muscle memory but it also requires reflexes. I'd say there's a pretty big difference to how he reacted to punches coming at him between the Pavlik and Ornelas fights. Agree, then again Shane Mosley's reflexes looked terrible against Mayorga , irrespective of the weight, however they looked on point against Margarito and poor against Miguel Cotto imo, not to say i think his reflexes were that good in the Margarito fight but that against the right type of opponent they seem okay, maybe that is why he had his way with Marg and his reflexes did not look as bad, same way Hopkins's did not look bad in the Pavlik fight, Pavlik was tailor made for his style. I think the most relevant point is that older fighters are inconsistent, their performances level go up and down, Ornelas fight can be attributed to that imo, although id agree his reflexes did look slower in that fight, its to be expected though imo, he is getting older day by day when all said and done, not to say i think he had particularly good reflexes against Pavlik though, he had a fighter that was not throwing many punches who was tailor made for his style.

it's more to do with styles and where he is positioned than reflexes Thats what im saying. If Hopkins reflexes were any where near what they were he would not of had trouble with Jermain Taylor's speed imo, same as i dont think Miguel Cotto would of beaten Shane Mosley.

Id agree with that but that is usually give a take a few/couple of years when you get past 30, i dont think you can have the kind longevity Hopkins has had and attribute it to him still have good reflexes. As I said, everybody's different. I think he still had good reflexes in the Pavlik fight, you need to have good reflexes to be able to take advantage of the openings that your opponents leave for you and to be able to roll, slip, slide from shots, some of it is technique and muscle memory but it also requires reflexes. I'd say there's a pretty big difference to how he reacted to punches coming at him between the Pavlik and Ornelas fights.

Id agree with that but that is usually give a take a few/couple of years when you get past 30, i dont think you can have the kind longevity Hopkins has had and attribute it to him still have good reflexes. it's more to do with styles and where he is positioned than reflexes

I think Hopkins would of beaten him in his prime (rematch). If Jones could make Hopkins lead to him then he would have a shot, but a prime Hopkins was too smart to play Roy's game imo, he would make Roy take the lead and would look to pick spots in Roy's aggression when he came foward, much how he did in this fight, sure Roy was faster then but he was not particularly great when asked to take the lead (come foward), as the Montell Griffin fight showed. Jones could try and bait Hopkins out into being aggressive but that would not work with (prime) Hopkins because Hopkins does not give a shit about whether the fight is boring, Hopkins would empty the arena before he does something in the ring he does not want to do, this is Jones problem against the prime Hopkins who was much more patient, when Jones beat him he was a crude aggressor who came foward and left spots for Jones to utilize his foot & handspeed. Griffin took away that speed advantage by timing Roy and making him come foward, i see Hopkins doing the same and taking away Roy's speed, Hopkins is a much better fighter than Griffin to. Hopkins is more conventional, meaning he has more wrinkles to his game if the speed is not decisive factor in the fight(Jones), he also has a better inside game, is tougher, has a better chin, defensively more savvy imo. That said i think the Calzaghe fight would of been a lot different as Jones would of kept the fight in centre ring, Jones had quicker footspeed and did not tire as much in his prime, when Calzaghe fought him he had lost that footspeed and his stamina was not what was to the point where he would languish on the ropes too much and become a more stationary target, not to mention the handspeed advantage. I don't think you people quite remember how good a prime RJJ really was...And I don't blame you. After all the shit he's been through, its harder to look at the bigger picture of his career. What separated RJJ from Hopkins' other opponents is that he forced him to answer to him, and try to break him down (referring to the first fight). B-Hop was confused for a majority of the fight and couldn't figure him out. A prime Hopkins would be able to do this more effectly, but by then he would have already lost 7 or 8 rounds, like in the Taylor fight. And not to mention RJJ's unreal footwork. Based on fighting styles Toney should have been able to beat him with his skill, but RJJ was just too good for him. I honestly don't think he presents anything that RJJ hasn't seen before. Let's not forget, B-Hop isn't the only one who got better after their first match...

Not really from not being able to adapt, Jones didn't have the technical base to fall back on, he pretty much admits that. The guy skipped the basically skipped the fundamentals of boxing and just did what he did. I agree with you that Hopkins has adjusted his style better over time but that really supports what I say about Jones having less left compared to Hopkins as Jones has taken more punishment than Hopkins because of him sticking to his style. Griffin in their first fight hit him with some good shots, I remember a right hand snapping Jones head back, I think Hopkins even landed a decent shot or two in their first fight. Ruiz landed some good right hands in their fight in the first couple of rounds. Some of those shots were way harder than some of the shots he got hit and hurt with as he got older. What do you mean I said you can't compare Jones' punch resistance? There's basis to say that Jones' punch resistance has declined over the years, he didn't get hit much when he was in his prime but that isn't to say he never got hit at all. I was just listing the fastest guys Hopkins has fought, unfortunately he didn't fight many really, really fast guys at or near his best so there really isn't a basis for saying he can or can't deal with really fast fighters. It's just my opinion that speed gives him trouble. Everybody is different, some people's reflexes slip later than others. Id agree with that but that is usually give a take a few/couple of years when you get past 30, i dont think you can have the kind longevity Hopkins has had and attribute it to him still have good reflexes.

Prime Jones would've given Hopkins a whooping.

Prime Roy vs Prime Hopkins is 10-2 in Roy's favor. Too much everything, Roy does everything better than Hopkins other than the dirty tactics. It's not even close. Roy doesn,t have anywhere near the sovel counter right Hopkins has. Roy doesn;t have the technical skills Hopkins has, and he doesn't have the defense Hopkins has. If Roy Jones has technical skills, and good defense, he would be able to compete the moment he left his prime, rather than lose to every A and B level fighter since your youthful attributes erode. Jones is my dude but he should retire. I awant Hopkins to retire too after one more fight.

I would favor a Prime Jones against Hopkins. Some dudes need to get a grip though, Jones would not dominate a prime Hopkins, it would be really competitive.

I don't know if he would win, but Roy would look like shit, and could possibly lose a close decision.

Prime Roy vs Prime Hopkins is 10-2 in Roy's favor. Too much everything, Roy does everything better than Hopkins other than the dirty tactics. It's not even close.

plz, bernard fought midgets, roy would destroy him prime4prime

Hopkins was also the champ and the two were contesting for pound for pound status. The fight was more than about belts. Also to go even further into it, Jones had not actually unified the division like Hopkins had because of Darius Michalczewski, the linear champion and previous undisputed champion. I don't think there's a sure way to say Hopkins was afraid because Jones did not call his supposed "bluff" of asking for even money, which was fairly reasonable in my view, considering that in boxing you're often only as good as your last fight. The 1993 fight was ancient history, Hopkins-Trinidad and Jones-Kelly was the now. Hopkins turned down Jones's offer, Jones turned down Hopkins's offer, that's all there is to it. Hopkins was MW Champ. MW Champ because Roy was no longer there. Roy beat Hopkins for the MW Championship which is greater than the left-over title. Roy was still the Champion over Hopkins. Not only because he had a belt at a higher weight class...two really...but because he had the MW title Hopkins wanted. The above is the reason why I say it still favors Roy and is not ancient history. Again, this is also why I bring up the Philly perspective...and as well as boxing and "Man-hood" perspective. Get-back. You should want to fight the man that beat you no matter what. I don't know: with this one thing with Hopkins I've always looked at it like that judging by the way he speaks, the way his actions are...and just being someone from Philly myself and being around this b.s. all my life. If you are confident in victory, take the 40%, take the LH Title...ensure your status...and when you win, reverse the percentage in your favor. Hopkins fought "names" but they were former WW Tito...and blown up LW Oscar. Not only would I favor that version of Roy over those versions of Tito and Oscar...but I'm not positive what they could even do in the LH division that Roy was fighting in. You just never know what happens when you move up. You can be a "name" but it doesn't mean that carries much weight in higher weight-classes. Just like no matter what people like to think..."P4P" Pac and Floyd are not the best overall in boxing today. That is for the HW Champion/King of boxing. Why? Because little Pac and Floyd aren't beating Wlad. That's why they need divisions to separate themselves and use "P4P" by their names. Without those separations, what are they to boxing? But that's for another day and discussion. Just saying...Ancient Greeks had one division from what I know: Everybody fights in that same one division. Anyway; I see we disagree and I'm not saying you are wrong. There really is no right or wrong in this debate. And you make some fair points but I just look at it from a different angle. Maybe because of how/where I grew up and see things that help mold my opinion...but either way....respect as always for your posts.

No he wouldn't have. Neither were fully primed in their first fight and Roy beat him clearly. At their bests, Roy still wins a decision.