Why doesn't evidence and suspicious behavior matter?

Do you think that Mark McGwire used steroids? Why... or why not? He admitted to using steroid precursor.

One more thing for you people to think about. Would you file a lawsuit if you're guilty as hell? Don't you think demeanor counts here? Would I as a guilty person subject myself in court and be able to act like I'm innocent? If I'm guilty, suing would be the last thing on my mind. I'd rather keep a low profile and hope that it will go away. No amount of acting education can help me convince a group of jurors that I'm innocent. I believe the Mayweather camp will lose their case in this lawsuit. They'd better settle it out of court and apologize to Pacquiao.

I believe Pacquiao is willing to undergo tests right now, today, yes at this very moment taken by the proper authorities without any resistance. I don't know if that would help clear his name given the period of time that has already passed. To me what the Mayweather had done is bullying in an unprecedented scale. And if you're really thinking you don't automatically assume that PEDs can't possibly be that effective. So, instead of speculating about people's reactions, I'd suggest you point your research towards that end. I don't even understand why agreeing to the Floyd demands would clear his name. It proves nothing! Does not agreeing to it means he intends to resume his illegal use of the substance? What rational human being would risk doing that in that kind of scrutiny?

I don't think he's on roid neither, but the more excuses they made, the more people became suspicious. He didn't even have to take the test since he and both Floyd has never been tested positive before, but if Floyd was willing to do it, but Manny only wanted to do it if he can set his own schedule for it. Okay Floyd offer for both he and Pac to be take a 14 days cut-off even if the offer was/wasn't on the table, but they had at least 3 days to agreed upon it, but Pacquiao declined that it would be too short to recover from a teaspoon of blood. I just hope that all boxing fans would blame both sides, not just Floyd. Yeah I agree that both sides are to blame for this whole mess and that Pac should have just taken the test to clear his name. The whole thing makes no sense to me and he may very well be juicing but I can't say that he is for sure. I wish this fight had taken place but oh well now. I don't blame people for thinking that he may be doing illegal things based on the reluctance compromise at all but I don't know who is telling the truth on either side with so much double talk.

"Can't believe people who claim to have law degrees have this kind of erroneous analytical mindset. Whatever happened to simple common sense? If you believe that PEDs will give you that kind of power to beat your opponents convincingly and impressively, and that you can hide it that long without getting caught, then I have nothing more for you. The only reason I can see why you people have this kind of mentality is that you can't believe a small guy coming from an unknown country could possibly be that strong." I don't think claiming to have a law degree is anything real 'street' or makes you an authority on boxing, first of all. I only mentioned it because I wanted to explain, we were taught this method of evasion in law school- to STALL, essentially. If there is a forced test, it could be a year from now- when Pac could have had it out of his system. That is all. I am more proud of my experience in the boxing gym then going to boring ass law school- trust me, pal. And I need to stress, this racist thing that keeps popping up- utterly ridiculous! I can't believe it because he comes from "an unknown country"? I knew all about the Phillipines long before I heard of Pac, count on it. And it isn't an unknown country. The fact I am going through nonsense now because my wife wasn't born in the US of A must mean I am not as predjuidice as all of that. Any fighter of any skin from any country could be doing something suspicious, and they should be called out. I think Margarito should be banned- does this mean I am down on Mexico? What lame logic. All I have said is that, if nothing has occured, there is weird and suspicious behavior going on, and conflicting statements. if I am proven wrong, I'll apoligize and be a man about it.

Not blaming Floyd, I agree that there is a lot of double talk from the Pac camp that is not making sense. I just don't think that there is any proof, this is my ONLY point. People keep saying they know this and they know that, well what can they show me as proof that shows Pac has steroids in his system now or in the past? I seriously doubt anyone can or they would have shown it already. To the other poster, I think McGuire used roids but I have no proof to say he did for sure. To another poster, i think his behavior looks somewhat suspicious but that does not mean he is on roids. Floyd moved up in weight and was successful is he on roids too? The only difference is that he was never accused of using roids publicly. Look, He may or may not be guilty but you guys don't know anything for sure regarding what he has in his veins right now. This is my point, there is no concrete, 100% evidence saying otherwise. I think this or because that guy did not take that test, he is guilty.....this is not proof only opinion. I don't think he's on roid neither, but the more excuses they made, the more people became suspicious. He didn't even have to take the test since he and both Floyd has never been tested positive before, but if Floyd was willing to do it, but Manny only wanted to do it if he can set his own schedule for it. Okay Floyd offer for both he and Pac to be take a 14 days cut-off even if the offer was/wasn't on the table, but they had at least 3 days to agreed upon it, but Pacquiao declined that it would be too short to recover from a teaspoon of blood. I just hope that all boxing fans would blame both sides, not just Floyd.

When Floyd Sr. first started his comments, I admit- I wished for him to shut up. I felt, you're just giving anti-Floyd fans ammunition- and making Manny look all the more impressive with these accusations. After all, if Manny is NOT using HGH- then not only does he look more impressive and historic, but his nay-sayers look even more foolish and humiliated. Right? Of course- we're never going to look foolish and humiliated. I don't know why boxing "journalists" and websites are selective to what they report, and why it's easy to blame Floyd Jr.- but why doesn't evidence and clearly suspicious behavior matter? Are people really dishonest? For weeks, we've already discussed that a promoter is willing to walk out on $40+ Million because of his ego- because Floyd and GBP want specific blood tests. Seems shifty. It's equally suspicious that Manny says giving blood will "distract" him from the fight- and yet, 24/7 has made Manny's karaoke singing for hours, basketball games, etc. before the fight famous- and Freddie Roach's attempts to curtail them. But a simple blood test is a major distraction. Yeah, right. Yuri Foreman is "too tall" and yet, he is the same height as Oscar. That isn't suspicious? However, we've discussed that. But in the past week, further things arise, and noone comments on them. First, on Doghouseboxing.com- an interview with Freddie. I've long visited this site before Manny's fights because the owner has a personal relationship with Freddie, and sometimes, Doghouse is the only site to which Freddie will give an interview. This time, the interviewer, who has a background for 30 years in biochemistry and blood tests, challenges Freddie's claims, and suddenly, Freddie tells him to get the hell out of his gym. This is a guy who has had an inside relationship with Fred for years. But that is minor compared to this next thing to think about- On Fighthype, Teddy Atlas confirms he knows 'the source' that gave information to the respected NY Times, and that on two occassions, Pac's camp asked extremely suspicious questions, such as the classic; "If he did test positive, could we keep this a secret for the benefit of boxing?" Now, it's up to you if you think Teddy Atlas is untrustworthy. I can't imagine any boxing fan thinking that about someone like Atlas, who lives for boxing-would like about this. unless of course, you are biased, and dishonest and that petty not to face facts. If that is true, and it seems likely, it would be for the benefit of boxing if it were kept quiet. Boxing has had a bad rap due to the stereotypes since the 1930s, when the sport was largely mob-driven.. when the truth about Pac comes out, its sure to ruin the mainstream goodwill boxing has recently accumulated. If it is true- and I now believe something has to be fishy- you know what? Floyd Sr. looks alot smarter- and De La Hoya looks alot tougher. I have a law degree, and let me stress, that doesn't mean anything, or make me somehow smarter than anyone else. I am only pointing it out to give some context on my educated opinion- I believe Pac and his team are stalling now, to get something out of his system. By the time Pac gives a test- possibly in a court battle due to his lawsuit- he'd be "clean". This has happened in lawsuits many times before. Whatever you feel about either boxer, the facts are that Manny's choices are extremely suspicious. Now that so many boxers will want blood tests, it's likely he'll be fighting Top Rank controlled fighters and avoiding anything that could challenge this. All I ask is that you at least consider what the NY Times has said and what Teddy Atlas has revealed- they are alot more reputable than the opinions of disrespectful and instigating posters on these forums. Can't believe people who claim to have law degrees have this kind of erroneous analytical mindset. Whatever happened to simple common sense? If you believe that PEDs will give you that kind of power to beat your opponents convincingly and impressively, and that you can hide it that long without getting caught, then I have nothing more for you. The only reason I can see why you people have this kind of mentality is that you can't believe a small guy coming from an unknown country could possibly be that strong.

Okay i agree with you, but most people shouldn't put all the blames on Floyd. Team Pacquiao had given all the hints from day one that they had no intention of making the fight this soon. Not blaming Floyd, I agree that there is a lot of double talk from the Pac camp that is not making sense. I just don't think that there is any proof, this is my ONLY point. People keep saying they know this and they know that, well what can they show me as proof that shows Pac has steroids in his system now or in the past? I seriously doubt anyone can or they would have shown it already. To the other poster, I think McGuire used roids but I have no proof to say he did for sure. To another poster, i think his behavior looks somewhat suspicious but that does not mean he is on roids. Floyd moved up in weight and was successful is he on roids too? The only difference is that he was never accused of using roids publicly. Look, He may or may not be guilty but you guys don't know anything for sure regarding what he has in his veins right now. This is my point, there is no concrete, 100% evidence saying otherwise. I think this or because that guy did not take that test, he is guilty.....this is not proof only opinion.

The bottom line is that there are no facts that indicate guilt...where are the emails? Where are any dirty tests results? No one has any real proof just speculation. Sure he LOOKS guilty but that means dick in the real world. Not defending anyone but all this talk of absolute guilt and facts is absurd; an opinion of guilt is still an opinion regardless of how much supporting stuff you throw in.......circumstantial is nothing in a court of law. Okay i agree with you, but most people shouldn't put all the blames on Floyd. Team Pacquiao had given all the hints from day one that they had no intention of making the fight this soon.

The bottom line is that there are no facts that indicate guilt...where are the emails? Where are any dirty tests results? No one has any real proof just speculation. Sure he LOOKS guilty but that means dick in the real world. Not defending anyone but all this talk of absolute guilt and facts is absurd; an opinion of guilt is still an opinion regardless of how much supporting stuff you throw in.......circumstantial is nothing in a court of law.

Dan Rafael is just as biased as Brian Kenny, they covered all the facts that came out of Pac camp, but they use their opinions to make it seems like Floyd is more to blame. At the end of the day, facts beat opinions any day of the year. Good thing Atlas came through :D

P4P305, well said. The facts and figures do not add up, and because websites, boxing journalists, and so forth dislike Floyd, they don't want to cover it. Noone wants to face it- it's amazing to me. If Floyd was caught using HGH, his fans wouldn't be blind in the face of it. Not that we'll ever be in that position./ Dan Rafael is just as biased as Brian Kenny, they covered all the facts that came out of Pac camp, but they use their opinions to make it seems like Floyd is more to blame. At the end of the day, facts beat opinions any day of the year.

P4P305, well said. The facts and figures do not add up, and because websites, boxing journalists, and so forth dislike Floyd, they don't want to cover it. Noone wants to face it- it's amazing to me. If Floyd was caught using HGH, his fans wouldn't be blind in the face of it. Not that we'll ever be in that position./

And when you look at the level of petty-ness and pussy-ness- I think a lawsuit because someone's Dad suggested something is pretty faggy- no offense, 70% of fans here- like this AT&T petition. It's just laughable. A guy who cheats on his wife saying a guy who doesn't cheat is a bad spokesperson- yeah, right. You know, Truman wouldn't let any politician in his cabinet who was known to be unfaithful to his wife. It wasn't just that he disapproved- his logic was, "if he'd lie to his wife, why wouldn't he lie to me?" The same logic can be applied to Manny. He'd cheat on his wife...

December 30th: Alex Ariza, in an interview, says that Manny is willing to take blood tests. Just "not 3 or 4 days before the fight" January 1st: Manny Pacquiao refuses a 14 day cutoff. I don't even know what to believe at this point. I want to give Manny the benefit of the doubt because I think he is a good guy. How about those hints and excuses? December 11: Freddie Roach: I have no problem with the testing whatsoever. They can do whatever (Keyword: Whatever) kind of drug testing that they want. Freddie Roach: A urine test is just as qualified as a blood test. is not detected by blood or urine.” How is HGH test done? More than one blood sample must be taken on different days, due to rapid changing levels of growth hormone. A test measuring IGF-1 levels may be taken in conjunction, as its levels change much slower. Before blood is drawn, the administering health professional should be informed of any disorders or medication being taken which can lead to bleeding at the site of the puncture. December 23: Bob Arum: Manny says that taking blood from him really weakens him. And he doesn't want to do it when he's in training, but he'll do it prior to going into training, and after the fight. Every major doctor will tell you that blood testing shows absolutely nothing. Freddie Roach: For the record, Pacquiao (Remember, he said Pacquiao) is willing to have his blood drawn before he starts training and after the fight to be tested for steroids and performance enhancing drugs. It’s not like Pacquiao is saying no to drugs. December 24: Arum: This kid has a phobia for getting his blood drawn. December 25: Manny Pacquiao plans to sue Floyd Mayweather, the American's father and Golden Boy Promotions in the next few days following a row over doping procedures, the Filipino world champion said in a statement on Friday. NYDailyNews. Tim Smith, This isn't some issue that just came about. It has been a part of the contract negotiations for weeks. According to a source familiar with the talks, Pacquiao's representatives asked what penalties Pacquiao would face if he tested dirty, and also if a dirty test result could be kept secret so that the integrity of the fight wouldn't be ruined in the public eye. December 26: Manny Pacquiao: I have offered to give a blood sample the day of the announcement of the fight at the Press Release. I have offered to give a blood sample 30 days before the fight. I am willing to give blood immediately after the fight is over inside my dressing room. I am also willing to give urine tests at anytime any where everyday leading up to the fight. The truth is taking blood out of my body does not seem natural to me and mentally I feel it will weaken me if blood is taken from me just days before the fight. December 28 Manny Pacquiao: I do not have anything to prove (to them) and hopefully, they would not succeed in destroying my image and the sport of boxing in the way they want it done. They want to dictate and step on the authority of the organizations including the Nevada State Athletic Commission. I am not guilty and I don’t have to prove anything because I have passed all tests in all my previous fights. I will all just see you in court. December 30: David Tyler interviews Freddie Roach. Freddie Roach: HGH cannot be detected by blood, saliva, or urine. The doctors I've talked to said that HGH and any growth harmone cannot be detected by any test. David Tyler: Fred, I have a graduate's degree in Biochemistry and 30 years experience in developing blood chemistry tests.....I'll leave it alone, let's move foward. Freddie Roach: No wait, you can't tell me that there is a test that can detect HGH or growth harmones. David Tyler: Fred, I'm not here to make you mad. Freddie Roach: I'm not mad, I'm telling you that you are wrong if you think there is a test for HGH. David Tyler: Ok Fred, so you are saying that HGH cannot be detected by a blood test? Freddie Roach: Absolutely, 100%, NO! Saliva, blood, or urine. So, I guess this was all Floyd Sr.'s fault right? I think not. Men Lie, Women Lie, Quotations don't. Note: Notice how Roach/ Arum are downgrading blood testing in general. The sides had quickly agreed on most points in the negotiations and the drug-testing dispute has been the only sticking point in the last month in an attempt to make the bout between the men widely regarded as the top two fighters in the world. The highly anticipated bout seemed to be going down the drain Friday afternoon as Pacquiao adviser Mike Koncz told Yahoo! Sports by telephone from the Philippines that “we’ve moved on and are getting ready to sign a contract to fight Clottey.” Schaefer, whose company is representing Mayweather in the talks, said Friday he isn’t sure Pacquiao is aware that Mayweather agreed to cut off testing 14 days before the fight and to have it administered by the Nevada Athletic Commission. Bruce Binkow, the chief marketing officer of Golden Boy Promotions, on Dec. 30 offered a 14-day cutoff as a compromise via instant message to Top Rank president Todd duBoef, who replied on Dec. 31 that “14 is no good.” Schaefer said he believes the fight can be salvaged over the weekend and the first step is making certain that Pacquiao is aware of Mayweather’s 14-day offer. “There are reports that Manny is not aware of this and we want to make certain that he knows what Floyd has agreed to do,” Schaefer said. However, Koncz said he was informed of the offer by promoter Bob Arum and that he brought it directly to Pacquiao, who would not even consider it. Koncz said Pacquiao was very firm in his decision. “Bob called and told us about the 14 days and I brought that to Manny and he said, ‘I told you, we’re not agreeing to that,’ and that was pretty much it,” Koncz said. Schaefer called Mayweather’s offer “a very fair, very reasonable compromise solution” and said Mayweather is still eager to fight Pacquiao on March 13. Both Schaefer and Mayweather Promotions CEO Leonard Ellerbe have denied speaking to any potential other opponents, though Mayweather has been linked through numerous published reports with Paulie Malignaggi. “We’ve focused solely on getting a fight done with Manny Pacquiao and that’s it,” Ellerbe said. “Manny would be willing to fight Mayweather, but the tenor of negotiations would be a lot different in the future,” Koncz said. “Manny was very accommodating before, because he wanted to get this fight done and to satisfy the fans, who wanted it very much. Billing is important to Manny, but he gave that up to accommodate Mayweather’s ego because wants to go out as the best fighter there ever was and, clearly, Mayweather is one of the best. “But given what happened, Manny won’t make those concessions if they come back to us.” Dr. Don H. Catlin, the head of the Los Angeles-based non-profit Anti-Doping Research, Inc., said a 24-day cutoff for blood testing is not sufficient to prevent abuse. One of the concerns with such a long blood-testing cutoff prior to the date of competition would be the potential use of Erythropoietin, or EPO. But Catlin said that wouldn’t be the only concern if there were a 24-day cutoff imposed. “If you have a 24-day window that’s free, with no testing, you can take whatever you want and you’re not going to get caught, end of story,” Catlin said. “ does matter, yes, but they’re not going to catch everything by urine testing alone. What you would do is to take Mircera , which is available and which is not easy to detect in urine and away you go. You need a blood test.” The Mayweather fight is the fight the world wants to see,” Roach said. “It’s going to be the biggest pay-per-view fight of all time. But I think we will fight one fight before that.” Roach said that Pacquiao’s schedule will be constructed around his political ambitions and the elections in the Philippines on May 10. “But there is a March date for him to fight,” Roach said. “People think I am crazy but I want him to win his eighth title against Yuri Foreman at 154lb. That’s my idea — then fight Mayweather in September. And then retire.” "If they give me a 5-day window or something like that I have no problem with it," Roach said. "When they've drawn blood from Manny in the past he feels weaker for three or four days. It may be mental, but it's there.

http://fighthype.com/pages/content6657.html http://doghouseboxing.com/DHB/Tyler123009.htm

December 30th: Alex Ariza, in an interview, says that Manny is willing to take blood tests. Just "not 3 or 4 days before the fight" January 1st: Manny Pacquiao refuses a 14 day cutoff. I don't even know what to believe at this point. I want to give Manny the benefit of the doubt because I think he is a good guy. To be real (I've said this so many times) Pacquiao has come off as being fake to me.

I'd be more scared of another boxer's fist than a needle. And I've got tattoos, I've laced up the gloves, I've even been hit (albeit, in training) by none other than Joe Frazier- Manny is full of it, man. Even Floyd broke his usual resolve by staying cool by venting his frustrating and saying he wants to beat Manny's ass- Floyd fans know Floyd doesn't generally talk like that, so that he can give the impression his opponents discuss him, not vice versa. I think Teddy Atlas is trustworthy as hell, and the fact that this has come up- and in NY Times- means something. I don't know why people wont consider it. Look. I love Marquez. People understandably think he is in decline. Team Pac *has* to think that. So, you mean to tell me you're gonna go up against Clottey- and Clottey is nothing to laugh at, man- instead of Marquez, who you believe is shot? It's ridiculous. Yuri Foreman is too tall? What? Everything suspect comes from Manny's side. I was one of those few who is a Floyd fan, but I was also a Manny fan- I believe you can like more than one fighter. When Paulie and Floyd Sr. started talking, I admit, I just wanted them to shut up. But now, with events unfolding like they have- you can't ignore it.

It doesnt matter in here because we have a lot of teenagers that are Pac fans not fans of boxing and they are also Floyd haters , but the man in the street knows Pac is very very suspicious and it looks to me like he is a juicer and everything points to that , I cant see any other logical reason to do what Manny has done , I will never support him again .

All the pieces are there. Way from the start of this whole thing, team Pacquiao hints that they were never intended to made the fight this soon. Right now, there are only two explanations i can think of, 1. Team Pacquiao didn't want to fight Floyd this soon, so they made up all those lies only to made things worse for the sport. 2. Manny Pacquiao is hiding something, or he is indeed afraid of needle.