..This STEROIDS Issue Really Doesn't Matter The Way You Think It Does...

For the record, I'm a big Pacquiao fan, but not the type of fan who thinks he stands much of a chance against someone like Paul Williams, if you get what I'm trying to say. He's a great fighter, he's not my God. Be that as it may, I don't believe he's a cheater, either. The fact that this all stems from a guy who has always hated his style of fighting and has constantly discredited him at any point possible (Floyd Sr.), makes me genuinely question the intelligence of the people who've fallen for it. Regardless, you can look at this entire ordeal only a couple of ways. If you're Manny. 1. You aren't cheating, but it's the principal of the thing. You're being treated like you're on probation, yet you've never so much as been accused of a crime by anyone except the father of your 'probation officer', Floyd Mayweather and Paulie Malignaggi. Two guys so dumb that one of them insults people in RHYMES (while not being a rapper, I might add), while the other nearly lost a title fight due to a hair malfunction. Also, the latters principals also coming into check, due to the fact that he would gladly help this CHEAT make money, so long as it brought his own bank account up aswell. The formers credibility being shot to hell as the guys that Manny has beaten as of late, could be associated with his style of trainer, when you mention De la Hoya and Hatton. One of whom he trained, the other being a former trainee of his. This wouldn't even hold up in court. Floyd has unreasonable reason to question this simply based upon issues of spite. Whereas Malignaggi obviously can't hold his own personal convictions about the man, when he's about to go into business with him. Add to the fact that Malignaggi has over the years been dangling from Mayweather's left nut, and both 'witnesses' would be excused from the courtroom. Rather quickly, I might add. 2. Manny know's he's cheating and the testing would put him in harms way, financially, legacy-wise and with his fellow countrymen. This is the idea that most of a lower intelligence are going to cling to (This is not to say that all those who grasp onto this are unintelligent). Those with lowered expectations for their own pride will easily swallow this as the pill of truth. Simply for the fact that most people are simply so afraid to stand up for what they truly believe in. Especially if it means that you lose out on college tuitions for your entire family from now until the end of time. People would simply much rather just prove it so that they can shut the mouths of those who question their integrity. What they fail to realize is that allowing it to happen means that you are stating there should be something to question in the first place. You have to lower yourself to the area of idea that states you COULD be a cheat, moreso than others, and you need special regulating. That what you've worked for, for so many years, over so many grueling fights, against some of the toughest plound for pound talent one can imagine, might be tainted. Your legacy might need to be revised. You might not be any good at all, and you're simply a dirty, cheating, bastard. People assume that if you're tested and you prove that you didn't cheat, this stuff all goes away. To debunk this theory, take a look at the people on this forum who question Pacquiao's accomplishments and abilities. If he got thru the testing for the Mayweather fight, passed it all with flying colors, which of the following three statements seems more likely from the members of the forums who discredit Manny now... A. Manny proved me wrong. He's never been a cheater, and I should apologize. It was unfair to question his skills without any reason to. I feel aweful. B. He found a way around the system. He probably used less for this fight because of the tighter watch over him. I still think he uses. C (if he loses) . You see what happens if Manny doesn't get to use? My point being that this type of thing wont really go away with the testing, anyway. So why sacrifice your dignity and your moral and ethical standards when you've done the regualr testing and never been accused of any wrongdoing and you should be treated as everyone else? NOTE: Golden Boy Promotions have no right to demand this type of testing. Before the Shane Mosley-Zab Judah fight, Judah's handlers were requesting that Shane Mosley take the same form of testing they are trying to impose upon Manny Pacquiao. GBP vehemently claimed they wouldn't, stating that they've alsways gone with the principals of the Nevada State Athletic Commision. The same NSAC that will be regulating the potential Pacquiao-Mayweather fight. Richard Shaefer stated something to the effect of; Shane Mosley is not a cheater and shouldn't be treated as such. Yet, for his rematch with De La Hoya, Mosley was ACTUALLY CAUGHT cheating, intentionally or otherwise. Yet, Manny deserves to be treated like a cheater, when he's NEVER been caught in any fashion. Richard is also guilty of claiming that imposing this type of act onto a fighter, 'isn't claiming that Manny is a cheater, we just want to make sure it's an even playing field,' when before this, Judah's handlers were guilty of the crime that Richard claims GBP isn't guilty of. Tsk tsk tsk. Whether or not he takes steroids, and I don't know the answer to that and in this day and age I wouldn't be surprised either way, this is a matter of principal. Why should you have to undergo the same types of testing being initiated by the same company who refused to partake in these types due to moral reasons, when you have the same morals in mind? Why should you HAVE to please a small section of Mayweather worshippers when passing the tests wouldn't get them to leave the issue alone, anyway? I applaud Manny Pacquiao for his courage if he does walk away from the money. If he's cheating, I would have to take this back. And I gladly would. Regardless, at this point, I have to look at this as a man standing up for what he believes in. In the process, walking away from history and he biggest Congradulations. To me, that makes him more of a memorable person than his fighting days ever will.

Comments (20)

CALDEROWNZ, The keyword in your point is "Priniciple"(and we're on the same page on this one). But, what is puzzling to me, and made me question about PAC is his responses to this type of drug-testing ie I had a nightmare as a child, it might hamper my performance(he knows his body more than anybody else), why doesn't he just flat-out say that this is not a matter of not wanting to take this type of drug test and just say that it's base out of principle ? We have to realize a few things here. For one, there is a language gap that hardly allows Manny to fully express himself in English to begin with. Not to mention that he's a world away and his handlers are speaking for him in a lot of instances. Regardless, in the article coming directly from him, he mentioned his own personal and as as his nationalistic pride as major issues when related to this. I don't think that you honestly think he's not a man of principles. I don't think that's the case.

16y ago

DiegoFuego

take the test if you're clean

16y ago

menoari

CALDEROWNZ, The keyword in your point is "Priniciple"(and we're on the same page on this one). But, what is puzzling to me, and made me question about PAC is his responses to this type of drug-testing ie I had a nightmare as a child, it might hamper my performance(he knows his body more than anybody else), why doesn't he just flat-out say that this is not a matter of not wanting to take this type of drug test and just say that it's base out of principle ? IMO Pac was and still is ok with additional test, he may have been confused, misinformed or just plain assumed that the additional test/s would incorporate his condition of no blood being drawn "near" fight time (everyone seems to have different opinions on what "near" means). We might not agree with Pac's reasons for not wanting blood drawn around fight time but the fact remains that he is perfectly entitled to have that belief and act accordingly. When the condition mentioned above became the equivalent of an iceberg sinking this "titanic" fight, IMO he got pissed with the fact that despite his agreement to additional testing his one condition to the blood testing was being spun around as some sign of guilt for taking PEDs. The rest is history and continues to unfold... I presume that the issue going around is real and not some innovative PR strategy for the fight ...

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

That's not what I said... I said the next step after suspicion is the collection of evidence. You don't have to collect evidence to justify suspicion; you have to collect evidence to ultimately prove or disprove allegations. However, the suspicion is unwarranted. Therefore, no REAL evidence is needed to begin with. What brought this to light wouldn't even allow a case to be brought to court. It's the insecure ramblings of a former crackhead (this is how it would be looked at in court, not just my actual opinion), that happens to be the father of the guy that is the only close competition to the pound for pound throne. I repeat, this wouldn't even be brought to court. Not to mention that the suspicion isn't even SOLID to begin with. The argument is actually pathetic to begin with. There is nothing there. you CAN turn down someones idea of proof and still be innocent. Very easily, actually. We're still in the suspicion stage with a limited scope of the situation and as such it's silly to commit yourself to either possible conclusion; but Pacquiao's team's refusal to give us a means to resolve this only serves to add fuel to the fire - it's hard to view it any other way. If someone shows a reluctance to provide evidence the logical assumption is that the outcome of the evidence gathering would be bad for them, it's really that simple. Actually, it's not that simple. I'd show reluctance if I was FORCED, essentially, to take a drug test, and I KNOW for a fact I haven't done ANY form of drugs. That's the REASON I'd be hesitant to begin with. I'm not guilty and I haven't done ANYTHING that should warrant this act. I shouldn't be treated as a guilty man. The closest you can come to SERIOUS suspicion is the fact that HIS TEAM refused to allow the testing. But that happened AFTER they went ahead with this, WITHOUT proper cause. And as I've stated, due to the past THAT WE KNOW of Manny Pacquiao, any way you slice it, he shouldn't of had to be brought to this point in the first place. If Pacquiao is clean his camp have had a huge common sense breakdown and really made a mess of things in this whole ordeal, to the extent that maybe he should think twice about letting these people publicly speak on his behalf in future. I disagree. They allowed him to stand by his honor and personal beliefs. More professional athletes should be so brave. On the subject of his prior testing, while it's comforting to hear he tested clean, it's not really relevent to the issue of random blood testing - a method that can unearth a lot of stuff that can easily bypass the scheduled urine testing that he's faced previously, and even work as a preventative measure as opposed to just being a means to catching someone red handed. While I agree that it has it's advantages, it doesn't make bringing it up ONLY in his fight against Manny Pacquiao ethically right or wrong. AT ALL. That implies something. And that something is that Mayweather feels Pacquiao is a higher risk. A feeling that I feel is unfair. Manny has no reason to allow people to determine how or if he should or shouldn't try to prove his innocence. If someone comes up with even a HINT of some form of POTENTIAL evidence, then he should be tested. However, throughout this entire thread, NONE has been provided. I'm not taking a side in this argument. I don't know. I actually don't care in some ways. But as a man of principals that he truly respects, I understand a man concern for potentially compromising them. I wouldn't risk that. I wouldn't be able to live with myself. If it comes out that this isn't his concern, it's getting caught that worries him, so be it. I doubt that I've mentioned that he did or didn't do it since this scandal broke. And if I have, I will state that I don't know. I DON'T KNOW. I do know that if he is innocent, testing wont solve the problem he will continue to have with detractors and he'll continue to be accused by them. For the record, his handlers are fine with random, and more extensive testing. But they wont fold to GBP idea of the USADA. I assume it's for the fact that they can't concede too much as a company, that company being Top Rank. They have to have a say in the manner to allow a 'level playing field.'

16y ago

Evidence is in Pacquiao's favor. He's never failed a drug test. Any evidence that damages his claim? NOT suspicion. Evidence. That's not what I said... I said the next step after suspicion is the collection of evidence. You don't have to collect evidence to justify suspicion; you have to collect evidence to ultimately prove or disprove allegations. We're still in the suspicion stage with a limited scope of the situation and as such it's silly to commit yourself to either possible conclusion; but Pacquiao's team's refusal to give us a means to resolve this only serves to add fuel to the fire - it's hard to view it any other way. If someone shows a reluctance to provide evidence the logical assumption is that the outcome of the evidence gathering would be bad for them, it's really that simple. If Pacquiao is clean his camp have had a huge common sense breakdown and really made a mess of things in this whole ordeal, to the extent that maybe he should think twice about letting these people publicly speak on his behalf in future. On the subject of his prior testing, while it's comforting to hear he tested clean, it's not really relevent to the issue of random blood testing - a method that can unearth a lot of stuff that can easily bypass the scheduled urine testing that he's faced previously, and even work as a preventative measure as opposed to just being a means to catching someone red handed.

16y ago

nailzfan

I didn't have any serious thoughts about Manny being a juicer before all of this, and if someone would have told me months ago that the money split and the weight would be agreed upon quickly and the only thing stopping this fight was drug testing. Then I would've said STFU. I'm sorry, and I have no idea of Manny's PED use or not, but it has certainly not made him look that great.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

great read.... manny taking the tests won't shut up those who accused him anyways. they are already treating him guilty where all evidence point to him being innocent. i see similarities in this situation as the hatton fight, where manny rejected 50-50 deal. a lot of people argue that it is fair, that manny should take it. he got a lot of heat from it. threatened to pull out of the fight. it was even pronounced dead. lots of people calling him a fraud, a pussy, a diva, etc. eventually, he got a 52-48 cut on it and he agreed. not that much, and probably wasn't worth all the trouble. but it wasn't about the money. he believed he truly deserved more than ricky. he felt that he, as the #1 fighter at that time deserves some kind of respect. he was willing to risk one of his biggest pay days for what he believes is fair. assuming he is innocent, he could have just taken the tests, fight, and get paid. but the other side have been spewing baseless accusations at him even before the negotiations started. like the hatton fight, he is willing to walk away from a massive pay day for what he believes is right. he believes he was treated unfairly, his legacy being questioned, and basically was called a cheater, hence the lawsuit. i admire his principles on this issue and has become a bigger fan of his cause of his actions. it may deprive me of one of the fights i am truly excited to see, but him refusing to be subjected to baseless claims has earned my respect. could he be cheating all this time? i doubt it. i would be shocked if he was on something despite some the people's claims out there. still, if he was proven to be cheating, i am also willing to take back all what i said. Oh, I would be far more shocked if he were found to be a cheater, but it doesn't take away the point. You know? You are still INNOCENT until proven guilty, not the other way around. Not to mention that some EVIDENCE would be nice. Which, NO ONE on the opposing side of the Manny is clean argument is able to come up with. They try to shut down logical arguments with, "Take the test, case closed." But life doesn't work that way, it's far more complex. Sometimes in good ways, other times not so much. In this case, it's about a principal. Regardless, however, of if he's clean or not, unless you have LEGITIMATE reason to treat him like a cheater, you have no MORAL RIGHT to do such a thing. This would be the equivalent of your girlfriend having NO REASON to assume you've cheated, yet requiring you to take a lie detector test to prove your innocence. I understand that most pussy-whipped guys would do it just to prove their case. However, some would see that for what it is. Insecurity and bullshit. In this case, it's much of the same. If people really believe that Manny HAS to have cheated to accomplish what he has, they have some serious insecurity issues. To think that someone who has accomplished so much to bother them to the point that they think he has to have been cheating, is actually a little sad. Regardless, if he did it, then so be it. I'm not claiming he did or not. I'm stating that the evidence points against the idea of him cheating AT THIS POINT. EVIDENCE, not suspicion or speculation.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

That's how it goes. Suspicion > Evidence > Conviction. The problem is, Pacquiao won't provide any evidence either way and as such we're forced to dwell in the suspicion phase and can never resolve the matter. I think blindly accepting something will always be the more ignorant option than keeping an open mind and waiting for something substantial before formulating your definitive opinion either way - hence why I don't understand the perspective that Pacquiao shouldn't take tests and shouldn't provide us with empirical evidence of his innocence or guilt. People should never take anything for granted and should always question everything. I disregarded Mayweather Snr's accusations but I find all this commotion triggered by the possibility of more accurate tests a reasonable cause for suspicion. Evidence is in Pacquiao's favor. He's never failed a drug test. Any evidence that damages his claim? NOT suspicion. Evidence.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

This a demand that the fighter hes fighting asked him to do...and Floyd also is doing it. If you are clean like Floyd is...you could careless about taking the tests they wont find shit anyway......right? Take the tests get the fight signed. PERIOD. You don't seem to get it. I understand what you're saying. If you've got nothing to hide, take your hands out from behind your back. Right? I get it. You don't. At some points in your life, it's not about innocent or guilty. It's about PRINCIPALS. Even if he was guilty, the fact that these claims came up without ANY reason still makes it WRONG. However, without ANY evidence on the opposing side, Manny is looking to be correct in this aspect. If anything, he has the only evidence available. He's taken numerous tests and NEVER failed one. He's a clean fighter in and out of the ring if you ask anyone knowledgeable of the fight game. If anything, he has the only evidence on his side. PRINCIPALS and HONOR > Money and fame. If you disagree, you're a weak-minded simpleton.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

This is simple..Manny take a random blood test...come out clean. Charges over. Why should Manny worry about what you or anyone else charges him with, when it's his principals that he'd be jepordizing? Trust me, he doesn't need the money and he can still make MULTI-MILLIONS in other fights. He doesn't need to be slandered and made out to be a potential CRIMINAL threat (that is what this also claims), just to please you, fight someone that disrespects him in the first place a lot of money and feel morally challenged in the end. Not worth it, not to me.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

It may not be fair but it has to be done. If there was this much on the line then I would do what I can to prove my innocence. I don't think your analogies quite work as probabation officers and sex offender lists do not offer you the opportunity to scientifically prove yourself innocent. The analogy still works. The fact that he can prove himself innocent or guilty doesn't change the analogy. He's still being treated like a criminal. If you want one that fits all facets regardless of their relevance, consider it this way. If your wife was murdered and they suspected you, you'd do whatever you could to prove you were innocent. You'd go to court/trial, you'd take a lie detector test, anything. Because you HAVE to. You'd still feel that you were violated and that your morals were questioned. In this case, however, he doesn't have to stand for this. He doesn't have to let them question his legacy while still trying to make money off of him. That takes a brave man. We as a society could use more like him. If, of course, he's cheating --and I don't know -- then this all is for nothing. But, if he isn't, walking away from this money and a fight of this magnitude, though depriving us of a GREAT fight on paper, you still have to respect the man. I'm a guy that goes on evidence. There has been NO evidence that he's EVER cheated. Not even in the ring is he considered a dirty fighter, for that matter. He's never failed a test. Never wrapped his hands incorrectly. Never used the wrong gear. He sadly BOWS whenever an accidental foul is commited on EITHER part. Does this mean he's clean? Of course not. But until actual EVIDENCE comes up, NOT SUSPICION which doesn't hold up in any respectable form of court, it aids his claims more then hurts them. You can be suspicious of someone, that doesn't mean they have to please you and go against they feel is right. He doesn't, I wouldn't and no one should.

16y ago

Eric_Teaman

Go Olympic Style testing and fight Bradley to prove a point.

16y ago

S_A_M_U_R_A_I

http://netrix-web.com/uploader/thumbs/large/437_oe4kh/allthatshitbyyou.jpg Nobody "expects" anything from you. Keep speaking in pictures, one-liners, or whatever you want. The opening post was great and only took about 5 minutes to read. Props to ..Calderownz... 100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

16y ago

S_A_M_U_R_A_I

Two guys so dumb that one of them insults people in RHYMES (while not being a rapper, I might add), while the other nearly lost a title fight due to a hair malfunction. :rofl: Paulie's mid-fight haircut was comedy gold. 100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

16y ago

If you had never commited a crime, would you be OKay with checking in with a probation officer? On principal alone, I personally would not be inclined to do such a thing. Some might say, "Well, if you're innocent and don't break the laws, then why not?" To them, I say this. Because I shouldn't be treated like a criminal if I've not committed criminal acts. I shouldn't have to register WHEREVER I live like a sex offender must, if I've never been involved in sexual offenses. I shouldn't be denied jobs at a bank for fear that I might take the money, if I've never been deemed a theif. It may not be fair but it has to be done. If there was this much on the line then I would do what I can to prove my innocence. I don't think your analogies quite work as probabation officers and sex offender lists do not offer you the opportunity to scientifically prove yourself innocent.

16y ago

THe_TRiNiTY

It's unfair to pin this on all Floyd fans. It was two or three trolls and alt's peddling the steroid stuff before Pac's camp started acting weird and raising more legit suspicions. I think people on here in general need to start paying less attention to the small (but very vocal) group of morons. Completely off topic.. *prophet. Nonetheless, I'm not pinning this on them. I'm thinking of the forum as a microcosm of the general boxing world. You multiply all factions of this forum and that minor group becomes far bigger. Floyd has a large fanbase. A fanbase that will never truly believe that Manny is and was a completely clean fighter. Simply based on allegations that have thus far been completely made, sans evidence. As a casual Manny Pacquiao fan, and a HUGE boxing fan, I simply do not see the need to treat a fighter who has never been proven dirty before this fight, like a cheater. I go back to the same principals involved in a probation example. If you had never commited a crime, would you be OKay with checking in with a probation officer? On principal alone, I personally would not be inclined to do such a thing. Some might say, "Well, if you're innocent and don't break the laws, then why not?" To them, I say this. Because I shouldn't be treated like a criminal if I've not committed criminal acts. I shouldn't have to register WHEREVER I live like a sex offender must, if I've never been involved in sexual offenses. I shouldn't be denied jobs at a bank for fear that I might take the money, if I've never been deemed a theif. These would all be considered unfair. Yet, with MANY Manny haters and Floyd lovers, this seems to be the exception. I don't think it's right and on principal, I wouldn't allow it to happen. Regardless of how it looks, I know the truth and whats fair is fair and vice versa. He'll never PLEASE Mayweather worshippers, so why try? The general population of boxing enthusiests will ultimately go with what they have already gone with. If he gets caught, then I'll wonder. Until then, he's a GREAT fighter. Why allow yourself to fall for Mayweathers simpleton idea of head games?

16y ago

lizard_man

http://netrix-web.com/uploader/thumbs/large/437_oe4kh/allthatshitbyyou.jpg

16y ago

Then, answer this question... Floyd Lovers, will they ever REALLY drop these charges? Honestly? Weren't they the same people that treated Floyd Sr. like a profit BEFORE Manny had a chance to act 'suspiciously'? It's unfair to pin this on all Floyd fans. It was two or three trolls and alt's peddling the steroid stuff before Pac's camp started acting weird and raising more legit suspicions. I think people on here in general need to start paying less attention to the small (but very vocal) group of morons.

16y ago

krazyn8tive

16y ago