I was thinking about this and watching some tapes:
Floyd's speed and flexibility (away from his punch-out-put) has seemingly declined on some level as he settled in at 147...while Pac has continually improved in many ways and has at least kept his speed unless some think it is better...don't know.
So how come Pac was able to do it but not Floyd?
Training, Nutrition...with Ariza and Roach's help?
Of course.
But why not Floyd?
Well, maybe it was because unlike Pac who needed to get better because he did well but not "great" in the lower weight divisions knew that if he continued to fight on and move up he had to continually get better.
So, he looked to advance himself with the help of Nutrition, Training set up by Ariza and Roach to help him become better technically. Hard Work and Study to improve.
Floyd: well, after moving up to 147 and settling in, I guess it can be looked at as if he sat on his ass and when you do that, you decline. There is no need to improve and it is when you just try to maintain your ability you can actually start to slip with age. The way to beat age is to find new ways to stimulate your mind and body. Pac did it; Floyd may not have.
Now if Floyd was forced to fight the best at 147 maybe that would have kicked his ass in gear to continually improve. Kind of like War. Those who settle in and get comfortable and don't have a major threat on the boarders, tend to become vulnerable and fade away while others who are constantly in warfare and have a fear level to survive, strive to continually improve to live.
You have Sr. throwing out PEDs use against Pac...but maybe Sr. and little Floyd are "Old School" on their approach to athletics/boxing.
Hopkins was like this throughout his MW career and he slowed down when he hit his 30's so he had to start pacing himself and picking and choosing when to fight during each round. He moves up to LH and he comes into the "Now" and hires a Pro...Mackie Shilstone...someone who is known to train some of the best athletes in the World to improve in the modern way. Hopkins became refreshed. Still declined compared to his early days but seemingly better than he was at MW.
So who does Floyd have? Big Leonard? I don't know. I'm a bit ignorant on this subject with him. But one thing is for sure: he seemingly is not the same as he used to be and Pac has been able to continually increase weight and get better...as well as his willingness to add on to his arsenal.
Now it wasn't a huge leap in technical ability as some may think it is...No...and it did take a long time to improve even slightly technically for Pac....but at least he put the effort in to get the desired results.
Pacquiao's entire body at times is just a blur. While it's possible his hand speed may have dropped very slightly, everything else is just ridiculous. It's like somebody fast-forwarding a video.
His angles too: fighters have talked about his punches come in crazy angles. You may see one punch but there is another one you don't see coming from an awkward angle.
There was a picture I saw of Pac that had Pac landed the right-hook while the left was inches away from landing as well. Dude is throwing two punches at once very close. Short reach helps. I think it may also have to do with Pac not needed to cock back every punch for full power so he can throw punches in inches.
Joe Louis had two types of punches and power: The type that he used most, which was very short, accurate, fast, thrown inch power punches that would stun you and drop you. Then, the big power bomb when he cocked back his arm and then let it explode. The inch punches stunned and drop people while the full leverage shots when he cocked back his arm made fighters spin around and leap off their feet.
Pac knocking Hatton out cold would be an example of him putting everything into it compared to throwing in fast combos to stun, confuse, and beat up his opponents.
Exactly man, that's exactly what I witnessed at WCG when I saw PAC up close. I knew the hands were fast, well, what blew my mind was he was even faster. And then, I looked at his feet, that's when I just thought to myself, unfu*kin'real, the guy is a f**kin' whirlwind.
When watching PAC move around the ring, he looks like a video game character from Tekken or somethin'.
Training: Pac was always fast but Ariza helped get him to where he needs to be. Did you see that short-clip from 24/7 with Pac doing his drills and runs?
All about building speed.
Pacquiao's entire body at times is just a blur. While it's possible his hand speed may have dropped very slightly, everything else is just ridiculous. It's like somebody fast-forwarding a video.
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Both Pacquiao and Mayweather train differently for speed. Mayweather is ALL about certain kinds of movements. It's mostly upperbody for the purposes of countering with right straight and jabs. Pacquiao on the other hand is just to throw punches while using his feet to get him into position. The Pacquiao-Cotto fight showed that CLEARLY. Pacquiao barely uses his upperbody other than for head movement. He hardly dips like Whitaker--he uses mostly his feet to get him out of harms way.
Yo u r not so perceptive is thr nicest way to put it... Mayweather loves training and always is, he always says he can get better iand to be honest helll fukong yes hes improvng with each fight, his last one was basically perfect. I dont see him beatin marquez the way he did back when they were both lighter q few yrs ago.. Dont hate man the guy strives to be the best, he has a tremendous ego which is the energy that fuels him to continue to try and be the best, pac does it for the country sure for himself but i dont think as much as mayweather and thats the most important thing to do it for.. It seems like he wants to please his "master" the most.. He even called himself just an ordinary fighter at the press conference cuz hes ben humbled to much with his defeats.. Catch mayweather saying that wont happen. You need that fake ego fpr motivation, sure u can have other things, but thats wat counts the most, and will cause one to try and jmprove like mayweather is.
Jesus. That was painful to read.
One thing Pacquiao cant improve on his is Ring IQ & thats an area Mayweather will have the advantage in.......who cares about physical attributes. Skill & Smarts win fights
I give up. If you cannot see the improvement in ring IQ, there's no hope for you Jiddu! :lol1:
I agree with Harold Lederman, actually. Pacquiao has tremendous ring IQ these days.
I'm gonna tell some of you guys off now. Why can't you just type properly. Use line breaks and paragraphs. Get rid of the stupid unreadable fonts and Horus-style center aligning. Let's have a normal conversation for once. Christ. It's like if you were talking to someone and they kept putting flangers, echoes, and phasers and wah-wah on their voice. You'd be like "WTF!!? Stop!"
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I'll check the tapes:
But what about the fighters he fights as he moves up that talk abut his blazing speed?
What about Roach?
Pac puts his time in to improve and keep it up...he stays active.
Actually, David Diaz and Rashad said its not Pacquiao's hand speed it's his foot speed they are most impressed with...they had interviews recently.
One thing Pacquiao cant improve on his is Ring IQ & thats an area Mayweather will have the advantage in.......who cares about physical attributes. Skill & Smarts win fights
Yes, and not taking that away from Floyd. Agree: one of the smartest boxers of all time. And he understands how to adapt and time an opponent.
Even when Kostya Tszyu, a fighter that seemed to decline somewhat in attributes over the years...partly due to inactivity...still had his timing to KO speed like Judah...although it also took him more rounds to warm up in later years compared to his early days (even if the KO of Judah was early).
Not trying to debate & go back and forth about it. It was just my opinion of what I think he might weigh...thats all
OK. No worries. I thought he might have said he's gonna weigh exactly 154 and I'd missed it. To me he looked more like 160 against Marquez.
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Dude, it's really hard to tell if he has lost a step, maybe a hair slower, then again I kind of see PAC in the same light.
Both guys in my eyes are still the two fastest guys out there, but, I don't think their speed are quite the same as maybe a few years back.
I don't think it's Floyd's reflexes that's gonna bite him in the @ss if PAC connects on him. PAC's angles are just crazy, man. I've personally witnessed it in person. If it looks nuts on t.v. it's even mind-boggling what PAC does watching him from 5 feet away.
PAC's wildness is like a double-edge sword.
Yeah, have to watch some more tapes of Pac.
Pro Athletes are like that. It's one thing to see it on TV, another to see it in person from the stands and then an even bigger shock when you see it up close.
I describe it like this: Ever watch a baseball game?
You can see the pitches on TV all the way through.
Now, take yourself and stand up to the plate against live, Pro pitching, and it will blow your mind.
It's the same with the NFL: everybody that has seen it from the side-lines says the game is incredibly fast.
Yo u r not so perceptive is thr nicest way to put it... Mayweather loves training and always is, he always says he can get better iand to be honest helll fukong yes hes improvng with each fight, his last one was basically perfect. I dont see him beatin marquez the way he did back when they were both lighter q few yrs ago.. Dont hate man the guy strives to be the best, he has a tremendous ego which is the energy that fuels him to continue to try and be the best, pac does it for the country sure for himself but i dont think as much as mayweather and thats the most important thing to do it for.. It seems like he wants to please his "master" the most.. He even called himself just an ordinary fighter at the press conference cuz hes ben humbled to much with his defeats.. Catch mayweather saying that wont happen. You need that fake ego fpr motivation, sure u can have other things, but thats wat counts the most, and will cause one to try and jmprove like mayweather is.
Which doesn't actually explain why Pacquiao hand speed has slowed down and the same with Mayweather Jr. --just look at tapes. Even Rashad Holloway is/was not impressed with Pacquiao's hand speed and he started sparring with Pacquiao for the Oscar Delahoya fight.
If Mayweather Jr. actually bothered throwing freakin' combinations once in a while --he would look like the old Floyd Mayweather Jr. that beat Diego.
I'll check the tapes:
But what about the fighters he fights as he moves up that talk abut his blazing speed?
What about Roach?
Pac puts his time in to improve and keep it up...he stays active.
Mayweather is going to be 154lbs when he steps in the ring vs Pacquiao
So basically you can see into the future?
Or has Floyd said "I will weigh exactly 154lbs."?
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A while back someone mention Floyd and juicing and although it helps with strength the extra muscle can slow a guy down as seen by the cut up Tyson compared to the leaner Tyson.
Added muslce/weight without steroids can slow you down. If you have access to steroids and you train right, you can get better with the muscle. There are a variety of steroids to choose from that do different jobs.
NFL athletes are an example that you can get bigger, stronger and faster through "nutrition" :D and weight-lifting. Ben Johnson in sprinting is an example...and so on.
Tyson: Same Tyson that spent 3+ years in jail rusting away and was even talked about looking slightly slower in the Ruddock fight because he wasn't training properly?
Read that post I put up with how Cus trained for speed.
By the way, how did Ali look after 3+ years away from the sport compared to prior?
Yes, I know Floyd has brittle hands...I hear it enough from Freddie Roach to remind me.
PEDs: How does PEDs help Sprinters?
It is not just their legs that get fast but their entire body. Actually, a little note on that: If you want to be fast, improve your arm speed. That's what I read from one of the top sprinting coaches a while back. Those arms need to move just as fast if not faster...something like that.
Which doesn't actually explain why Pacquiao hand speed has slowed down and the same with Mayweather Jr. --just look at tapes. Even Rashad Holloway is/was not impressed with Pacquiao's hand speed and he started sparring with Pacquiao for the Oscar Delahoya fight.
If Mayweather Jr. actually bothered throwing freakin' combinations once in a while --he would look like the old Floyd Mayweather Jr. that beat Diego.
see the sig. floyd is an LW who has no belt. only a fool would rank him as a top WW. see the latest boxrec and ring rankings.
Yeah, seen the rankings, Kali. I would not place Floyd above any of the top WW's for beating Marquez. Any of those guys would have obliterated a bloated up Marquez, most likely by KO.
BUT... we know why it's happened. This is all to do with having MP & FMJ fight for the RING belt.
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see the sig. floyd is an LW who has no belt. only a fool would rank him as a top WW. see the latest boxrec and ring rankings.
I don't think Floyd needs to be ranked at this piont.
For who is the best: Shane is the lineal and has proven himself more at WW than anyone else. Paul Williams, if he can still make weight, is the most dangerous...and then it goes from there. Probably Pac since he has a title by giving Cotto a brutal beating and so on.
You do you know Mayweather has had hand problems through out his boxing career? Since like 2001 with Hernendez fight. And leading up to the Hatton fight--I didn't see any change in his agility or speed. Pacquiao's speed has actually diminished over the years since moving up in weight. By the way, how does PEDs help you mantain hand speed?
Yes, I know Floyd has brittle hands...I hear it enough from Freddie Roach to remind me.
PEDs: How does PEDs help Sprinters?
It is not just their legs that get fast but their entire body. Actually, a little note on that: If you want to be fast, improve your arm speed. That's what I read from one of the top sprinting coaches a while back. Those arms need to move just as fast if not faster...something like that.
his welter run against cotto, shane, pac, berto? when has that happened? enlighten me.
That's what I'm saying. If the Marquez fight is being used as a gauge, I don't think it's possible to tell if he's slipped. Marquez at WW is more stationary than a box of paper clips. Floyd has not been tested in two years, at the very least, and the last test was Ricky Hatton.
How do we gauge him? :dunno:
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I thought about this but that doesn't explain the Hatton fight or the Oscar fight.
Sure, Oscar was still dangerous and bigger...but he could have fought him like he did Diego, no...same with Hatton.
And not just that...his speed doesn't look quite as fast and his movement, especially when he bends over/leans away isn't quite as sharp/fast. His timing is still good...no question.
Actually, Tyson is an example. It was even mentioned in the Ruddock fight that he didn't look quite as fast as he used to during his days with Rooney. It's about the way they trained. I have a good article about how Cus used to train fighters, specifically big Fat Buster Mathis who lost weight, improved and got fast because of the training.
Get rid of the training and the need to improve and even the best can slip no matter what age.
That's why Sprinters can run one time one year and not the next if they don't keep training accordingly.
Cus and Buster:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1079455/3/index.htm
Here is something quick from the article:
When Mathis began punching Willie, D'Amato had him throw only one punch every five seconds. Then he gradually speeded up the process, and Mathis can now deliver a five-punch combination in as little as three-fifths of a second. " Frazier couldn't do this," D'Amato says. "He wouldn't have the power, speed, coordination or stamina. Clay couldn't do it either. You have to have done this over a period of months and months."
Every day Mathis goes at least five rounds against Willie. Once, when he complained, D'Amato kept him at it extra hard, and when Mathis was through he had thrown, by D'Amato's count, 12,000 punches. D'Amato says, "I told him Clay had thrown only 1,760 punches in the Chuvalo fight and not to complain again." To which Mathis adds, "When I walk into the ring, I figure I gotta win. No one trains as hard as me, runs as hard as me or has had Cus on his back."
I don't really see what you're seeing in the Hatton and DLH fights, maybe he was just being more economical, doing just enough to win, which is in his mentality, he doesn't really care how he looks as long as he does enough to win.
The only time where I think he's lost a step was against Marquez honestly but that could be because of ring rust, he looked a step slower in that one. But he looked fine to me in the Hatton and DLH fights, to me it was more like him choosing not to do some of the stuff you mentioned moreso than him not being able to.