How good is Marquez?

Every fighter has that one opponent whos style gives them problems i.e Forrest to Mosley. Marquez is really good, but i think Pacquiao made him, anyone see the Chris John fight? I saw Marquez beat John and get robbed. I also saw a few bullshit point deductions, as well.

Marquez cant cut it at welterweight so Pac would walk through him now. However Marquez at lower weights will always give Pac problems, he was awesome at counter punching which Pac found hard to deal with. Great fighter but past his prime now.

You also have to take into account that Marquez is a warrrior. When he's hurt or goes down, he becomes stronger. Something ignites inside him, but he controls it so well and uses it to his advantage.

These are two very vague statements. Nothing I can really offer up as a counterpoint to something so general. Well then I'll follow up with another vague statement. Every fighter as they mature, their styles evolve. People don't just stay static, hardly ever. They change...for better..or for worse as time marches on. Style ; The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed. Manny putting more power into his shots doesn't effect the way in which he's performing. Because the added weight is the reason for the added power. If you take him out of the Welterweight division, and put him back at 135, he'd still be performing the exact same way, except with less dynamic power. And where do you get that his footwork was wild in the Marquez fight? Being less wild effects his style. Because, he doesn't just throw heedless shots anymore with his eyes closed. He's much more calculating now and throws together devastating combinations, and less of those volume oriented quasi aimless flurries that used to be his bread and butter. He would be more measured, and with better ring IQ if you put him back at 135 now.. Which you couldn't because he's too big now. That sideways counter with the hook or uppercut is something Manny has been doing for a while now, but it never really got much attention until he used it to clean Hatton's clock. I seem to recall him doing that against Morales in their 3rd fight on a few occasions, but I'd have to check the tapes to be sure. Yeah, he has had lateral movement with counters for awhile..but that was only part of my point. Pac is actually willing to go back a few steps now without it being forcibly at the end of a fist. True, he has kept his relentlessness, but is more tactical with it.. He only did that what? Once? Twice? And Roach himself said that was not a part of Pacquiao's gameplan. That Manny deviated from their strategy on purpose, to put himself on the ropes, to try to test Miguel's power to see if he could handle it. He's still very easily timed and countered, as Cotto showed in the first few rounds last night by consistently snapping his head back with a good jab, and countering him effectively early on. I think we'd all agree that Cotto's jab and countering skills are not on par with the jab and countering skills of Juan Manuel Marquez. Whether it was in the plan or not, its... how did you put it.. effecting how something is done, expressed, or performed. He did it on the ropes...but he also used that same guard in the middle of the ring a couple of times. In certain moments, he was much more stationary than he was against JMM. Yeah his guard isn't great. Cotto was jabbing and uppercutting through it. But he was using it. Marquez's countering skills are better, I agree with that. But Cotto's converted southpaw jab is one of his best weapons. He knocked down Clottey with it, just as one example.

Every fighter has that one opponent whos style gives them problems i.e Forrest to Mosley. Marquez is really good, but i think Pacquiao made him, anyone see the Chris John fight?

you have to be a very boring fighter to beat manny pacquiao enter floyd mayweather man erik morales was damn fvckin boring...:crazy:

Well, he was the last guy to go the distance with Pacquiao! Diaz De La Hoya Hatton Cotto Have all been BRUTALLY stopped or just plain Knockout cold. I cannot stress how much of a phenomena Manny Pacquiao is.

you have to be a very boring fighter to beat manny pacquiao enter floyd mayweather

Marquez seemed more alive and active against Manny than Cotto. I honestly believed Cotto would start off much faster and set a pace to retain his belt. But he was befuddled by Manny's movement, speed and combinations. I'm sure Team Cotto studied the Pac-Marquez fight, but just could not implement the correct formula against Pacquiao. Manny just overwhelmed Cotto.

Pac has been on a good roll since he last fought Marquez, he's made it look easy while running through his opponents, Oscar, Hatton now Cotto. Despite the outcome of their two fights, it seems like Marquez was the last person to really give Pac a run for his money. Has Pac grown that much as a fighter since they last fought or is it that Marquez's style happens to give Pac trouble. stylisticly marquez had a bad style for the old pac, but i think a lot had to do with the weight. he was obviously drained when he fought marquez because pac would rehydrate by 15 pounds. overall i think marquez accomplishments places him below barrera and morales. he went life and death with a shot barerra, and barreras and morales resumes are better than marquez.

I agree with this although I think Pacquiao has improved quite a bit from their rematch. I really don't see much improvement, apart from the right hand being more versatile. But I'm glad you agree with most of it. :fing02: He's matured as a fighter, and Roach has been molding him as well. Both those effect how he fights, IE..his style. These are two very vague statements. Nothing I can really offer up as a counterpoint to something so general. How does not being as explosive, but leveraging more power into his shots not effect style? How does not having as wild footwork, but having it more coordinated and efficient not effect style? Style ; The way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed. Manny putting more power into his shots doesn't effect the way in which he's performing. Because the added weight is the reason for the added power. If you take him out of the Welterweight division, and put him back at 135, he'd still be performing the exact same way, except with less dynamic power. And where do you get that his footwork was wild in the Marquez fight? In the Cotto fight for instance, he actually stepped backwards or sideways and countered Cotto with that big left uppercut, whereas old pac would have just charged forward more often, and been uncomfortable taking a step back. That sideways counter with the hook or uppercut is something Manny has been doing for a while now, but it never really got much attention until he used it to clean Hatton's clock. I seem to recall him doing that against Morales in their 3rd fight on a few occasions, but I'd have to check the tapes to be sure. And when he laid on the ropes and did his little Ali vs. Foreman impression. Can't say I've ever seen him do that before. And though Cotto was catching him with some flush shots, Pac was catching shots on his elbows and arms as well... Which is what I meant by better defense. He learned a bit of a guard. Finally. He only did that what? Once? Twice? And Roach himself said that was not a part of Pacquiao's gameplan. That Manny deviated from their strategy on purpose, to put himself on the ropes, to try to test Miguel's power to see if he could handle it. He's still very easily timed and countered, as Cotto showed in the first few rounds last night by consistently snapping his head back with a good jab, and countering him effectively early on. I think we'd all agree that Cotto's jab and countering skills are not on par with the jab and countering skills of Juan Manuel Marquez.

Pac destroys Marq at 147 and 140.. at this point, Pac would be weight drained below 140, so that is moot...

His defense is better? How? What does he do now, that he wasn't doing against Juan Manuel in their rematch? He's matured as a fighter, and Roach has been molding him as well. Both those effect how he fights, IE..his style. How does not being as explosive, but leveraging more power into his shots not effect style? How does not having as wild footwork, but having it more coordinated and efficient not effect style? other examples... In the Cotto fight for instance, he actually stepped backwards quite alot or sideways and eventually opened up that counter on Cotto with a big left uppercut, whereas old pac would have just charged forward more often, and been uncomfortable taking a step back. And when he laid on the ropes and did his little Ali vs. Foreman impression. Can't say I've ever seen him do that before. And though Cotto was catching him with some flush shots, Pac was catching shots on his elbows and arms as well... Which is what I meant by better defense. He learned a bit of a guard. Finally.

Stylistically ; Pacquiao is damn near the same fighter now, that he was when he rematched Marquez. The only difference is that he's carried his power up in weight with him, and his right hand is a little more refined. How good is marquez? Damn good. But too small physically to be able to compete with anybody at 147 and maybe even 140, as he looked to be pushing his body to the limit with his 2 fights at 135. If Manny and Juan Manuel mixed it up once again at 147, or 145, or even 140 ; I don't think Marquez would have enough on his punches to really do anything to Manny, at this point. He's just too small to support that extra weight. but if Manny dropped to 135 and they had their 3rd fight there ; Marquez would give him fits, once again. I agree with this although I think Pacquiao has improved quite a bit from their rematch.

Sometimes you don't get the bigger fights when your better.....he is just a tough fight for Pac because he is always looking for the counters though is busy due to Pac's constant offense. It makes for a good competitive fight....but a little older and maybe slower against someone who is better and stronger than before could result in a total mismatch this time around if it happened. It really depends on what weight they would fight at, if you ask me. 135 or 130 ; Close, competitive fight. Anything above 135 ; Pacquiao would likely knock him out, IMO. But it's all speculation, this third encounter will never happen, anyway. Mayweather dragging Marquez up to Welterweight ruined the significance.

not really.. not as wild. doesn't punch with his eyes closed anymore. Better defense. a little bit less speed..a lot more power. less explosive,but more efficient and coordinated footwork. He's a lot different nowadays. None of that is stylistic.... He's not as wild as he once was, but he wasn't really very wild in the Marquez rematch, either. Not as wild as he was with Ledwaba and Barrera, or Morales, anyway. His defense is better? How? What does he do now, that he wasn't doing against Juan Manuel in their rematch? The power I already addressed ; that's not stylistic. He's gained weight. more weight usually equals more power.

marquez is just pac kryptonite... thats all

The term prime is very hard to say when the person is at his prime. especially for Maruqez at this stage. Why? Because there are alot of fighters who made a comeback and people though he was out of his prime. Marquez is a very good fighter. But some of his wins and loss is abit overrated and sometimes he tend to let his pride take over rather than his brains.

At 147? He sucks! He doesn't belong at WW He's a beast at 135 though.......

Stylistically ; Pacquiao is damn near the same fighter now, that he was when he rematched Marquez. not really.. not as wild. doesn't punch with his eyes closed anymore. Better defense. a little bit less speed..a lot more power. less explosive,but more efficient and coordinated footwork. He's a lot different nowadays, partly thanks to Roach molding him and partly due to him maturing as a fighter.