My Truth On Muhammed Ali

you see this is your problem.You took a deluded,one way,biased hatchet job of a documentary and took it as a fact yes I am sure that muhammad ali one of the most recognizable figures in the world attended meetings of a dying organisation in the middle of the night and in the middle of nowhere the sad thing is you took this as a fact for every bad story there are good ones their feud wasn't as one sided as that documentary would like to claim joe only hates ali when it suits him he isn't consistent at all just a few years ago he was at a basketall game with ali saying all was cool now and then just a year later he was trashing him I see that you included that ali beat his wife.Where did you get this from the documentary also? ali was particulary cruel to his first wife Sonji Roi around other members of the nation of islam although from what has been reported nothing more than verbal though that doesnt excuse him I just laugh at the way they potrayed ali as a piece of shit while joe was an all round nice guy failing to mention that joe beat his wife up pretty bad joe is just bitter than ali won their trilogy and I genuinly believe that.Truth is his legacy needs ali more than ali's does him ali didn't make you beat your wife joe and he didn't make you broke oh and I commend you on such an original thread:bryce:

Good topic thread starter, and points. I watched some documentaries on Ali recently and I was surprised at how differently each portraryed him. It made me realise you really do have to question how accurate merely one thing can be, and get a wider view from various sources and such. I'm a fan of Ali and it was a great education watching, and reading up on the more negative aspects of him which are much less covered than the positive hero image. I'm a tad surprised so many are defending him to quite the extent being seen. I still quite like the guy, great fighter, but for me there's no 'excuses' for some of the thngs he said or done. He said some truly, profoundly awful things to and about Joe Frazier for no good reason, and completely, publically humilated an innocent man, and demonised him. That's a pretty awful thing, even in the game of boxing. He was apparently quoted as saying to the KKK something to the effect of "I support your cause, dogs with dogs, blacks with blacks, and whites with whites". I know race was a big issue then, but I'm sorry quotes like that really stick. He also said, if a women can't cook, or re produce, then what is the point in her. It's an unpleasant thing to have to say, but he would not have been quite so sympathised with if he were even just quite gobby these days. Which of course he is not, he is a victim of an awful disease, and a lot of folk sympathise where they may not have. I think that's quite a reasonable point to make though will most likely get some flames. Truly great, inspirational man particularly at certain time periods, like standing against the war. Great great fighter. But did do and say, some bad in excusable, controversial things ASWELL. That is all.

Frazier said Ali has never apologised to him for his remarks.

Ali was young and dumb. Now a lot of it was for show and I think some of his rhymes and insults were not all made up by him. But he just liked the attention and wanted to work the crowd to draw up more demand. As far as some of his racist stances and close connections with Malcolm X and Elijah Muhammad, I put it down to him behing young and easily influenced. In time he saw what was going on and switch from the Nation of Islam to become a Sunni Muslim. I think that maybe an apology on his part would have been nice, but otherwise I think he is a good person and as he got older his beliefs became less extreme.

How Ali acted WAS a discgrace, and it's the reason so many of us have never liked him. But the media needed a hero and so they made him one. So many young kids like whoever they are told to like no matter what they actually were so Ali will always be a God like figure to them. Same shit with all the retard kids walking around with Che Guevara shirts on without knowing all of the atrocities he was responsible for. He was also a massive racist and hated Black people. Yet Tyson has a tattoo of him...****ing amazing...

Well personaly I never had much respect for Ali as far as his personality and outside the ring actions go. I really believe that he was NOT a GOOD man when he was still in good health. Maybe some people fail to see it, but there was always something about him, just wasnt right.

Ali's treatment of Frazier in the run up to their fight was absolutely disgraceful. To not only label Frazier as a 'Gorilla', but also claim he was 'working for the enemy' (Whites supremacists and whites against civil rights) in that time of social and political climate in racially divided America was childish, damaging and divisive. Instead of using the fight to present a unified front on favor of better conditions for working class blacks in America, Ali used common racial stereotypes of the kind the KKK and other such organisation would use, against his own kind. I reject the media interpretation of Ali as this leader who used boxing as a conduit to educate and inspire people to question America's involvement in the Vietnam war as well as America's own issues with race and its position in society. To myself the documentary on Thriller in Manilla showed evidence to suggest Ali was impressionable rather than a decisive human being. He was confirmed by some as a mouthpiece for the Nation of Islam, something which had been suggested in the years before. It was even stated that Ali was told to say his reason for not going to war in Vietnam concerned lines of race and that actually his own reasons had nothing to do with his core belief system and values. Through it all, it seems Frazier was the one who was actually the real working class black man Ali claimed he was speaking out for. Ali apparently didn't have a job in his early years, whilst Frazier worked laboriously in the fields grafting to make living, often faced by the fiercest of racism. It seems it was Frazier who even lent Ali money and supported Ali as he tried to gain back his boxing license after it was taken away over Vietnam. It appears Frazier was the one, who received death threats after Ali's cynical portrayal of him as an inside man who made money and built up a business based on betraying his own people. Frazier's children were even targeted and its seems a genuine threat of violence existed towards his family. All this, because Ali was scared of Frazier, he knew what Frazier could do to him and he sold himself out completely just to gain and edge in a boxing match. Thats' all this was, a boxing match, but thanks to Ali, he managed to destroy part of another human for life. Frazier cannot ever forgive him for what Ali has done to him and his family. He might say it every now and again, but Ive seen footage of him taking credit for putting Ali in his current condition and claiming its justice for what Ali done to him. Im sick of the media portraying Ali to be something he is clearly not, in many respects, he is a distortion, a media creation. In my eyes he is great fighter, but not a great man. Rant over. how do you feel about Ali's honorary degree (doctorate of humanities) compared to the same of pacquiao's? who do you think is more deserving?

Technical_Skill, I respect your opinion, but I don't think you can really judge Ali based on one phase of his life. For starters, his life as Cassius Clay and his life as Muhammad Ali could be seen like he's two different people (except some of the same qualities were always there). Hell, his life as Ali has had it's different phases in itself. You do have to consider his involvement in the NOI and his boxing ban having influence on him. (I once saw a doc on Ali that followed is life right before the 3-year ban and immediately after it, and you could see the difference in his personality. He went through changes.) I agree he treated Frazier badly. But I think with Ali, the good outweighs the bad. Like others have stated, Ali wasn't always portrayed as a hero, in fact quite the opposite. I think it's unimaginable for us regular folks to realize the incredible pressure the man faced in his life. He was not only brave enough to want to be Heavyweight Champ and risk his health to achieve that, but he also took on the US Govt. That takes courage. I'm not saying pressure is an excuse to treat others badly. But Ali often made a conscious effort to try and uplift his people and I'm sure he inspired many people to reach their own personal goals. America was different back then and so far as sports go, today it seems like very few athletes care about social issues. Today, it's just product endorsements and salaries and personal glory and steroids. Ali knew it was important for him to be a hero and I think he strived to be that. He obviously wasn't perfect. The stuff he said to Frazier was messed-up, but I don't think he hated Frazier. It was said to promote a fight and there could have been better ways for him to do it, but he said some incredibly negative things and ran with them. I guess one way of looking at it is he was a boxer and an activist and those roles unfortunately conflicted when in trying to promote a fight and psyche himself up (and psyche out Smokin' Joe) he said some terrible things. I mean, it's no secret that Ali could be arrogant, so he was probably thinking with his boxer's brain rather than his leader brain at those moments, if that makes any sense. Ali thrived off crowd reaction and if things he said got attention he kept it going. But, anyways, I'm starting to ramble. I'm not excusing Ali for the Frazier comments... I'm just saying try to look at the complete picture.

I know why he met with the KKK, but he criticized Frazier for having dealings with white people, when met with the KKK, it seems there is one rule for ali and another for fraizer. Im not sure he truly believe Frazier was a tom, if so then why after the 3rd fight (i think) did he sent someone to apologize to Joe and said it was to promote the fight. Frazier would not accept the apology cos Ali wasnt man enough to say it to his face. The media portray Ali as a hero. But if you not only look at the things he said to Frazier but the way he hounded him in the run up to the fight. I think its clear Ali was a weak, impressionable man, who was scared of Frazier and did whatever he could to gain an advantage. He was in a position of huge responsibility, people idolized him, and he abused that position greatly. Ali certainly was vicious towards Frazier, but it seems like you're judging him based almost solely around Ali/Frazier III. What else do you know about him? Ever read any of his biographies? Everything I've read or seen said he'd give anything to his fans. How many fighters do you know as popular as him that have open training camps when anyone can come at any time? He might be glorified by the media now, but there was a time when he was represented terribly in the media. Some of that was correct because of his actions (relating to the NOI), but he was mistreated in so many ways. He was stripped of his titles and unable to fight for 3 years for being a conscientious objector! I disagree with judging Ali based around this one fight. He went too far in bashing Frazier, but he saw it as fight promotion (at least by the third fight).

A fictional film character gets more respect than Frazier in Philadelphia, sickening though it may be. He certainly came out on the losing end of their clash in virtually all aspects.

I'm not making excuses, just explaining my view of his actions.... He called Frazier an Uncle Tom because he truely believed it, and he met with those assholes from the KKK, because the NOI preached the same bullshit separation theory... in their warped minds the two societies would take control of the US and have a segregated America. The power of religion and racial tension in brainwashing someone, is truely frightening. I don't place Ali on a pedestal, he was a great fighter, entertaining personality.. but he was still flawed like every other man. I know why he met with the KKK, but he criticized Frazier for having dealings with white people, when met with the KKK, it seems there is one rule for ali and another for fraizer. Im not sure he truly believe Frazier was a tom, if so then why after the 3rd fight (i think) did he sent someone to apologize to Joe and said it was to promote the fight. Frazier would not accept the apology cos Ali wasnt man enough to say it to his face. The media portray Ali as a hero. But if you not only look at the things he said to Frazier but the way he hounded him in the run up to the fight. I think its clear Ali was a weak, impressionable man, who was scared of Frazier and did whatever he could to gain an advantage. He was in a position of huge responsibility, people idolized him, and he abused that position greatly.

I believe the Thrilla in Manila document was somewhat sensational and most certainly biased. Joe Frazier is my favorite fighter and I agree that Ali could get vicious with some of his insults but it wasn't just Ali insulting Frazier, they were both in a war of words against each other. You can go and watch some interviews with both men before Ali had been allowed to box again, and Frazier was behaving very arrogantly towards Ali, mostly because he was not recognized as the true champion even though he held the title. Ali had been his target from the beginning, Frazier had always wanted to beat him in the ring. As much as I like Smokin' Joe, the insults are not the only reason he is bitter towards Ali (although I would say they are a big part of it). Losing the trilogy had a lot to do with it, he came so very close to winning.

no it's weakness actually. if that alpha male shit gets in your head, and makes you like that your very far from being a real alpha. percieved roles are far from reality! True......

What I am saying here is, he is a proven track record of betraying and lying that doesnt just apply to Frazier. I mean Ali called Frazier an uncle tom, but met with the KKK for ****s sake! Yet he is encouraged a this huge role model and idolised, i think some of this is totally unjustified. I'm not making excuses, just explaining my view of his actions.... He called Frazier an Uncle Tom because he truely believed it, and he met with those assholes from the KKK, because the NOI preached the same bullshit separation theory... in their warped minds the two societies would take control of the US and have a segregated America. The power of religion and racial tension in brainwashing someone, is truely frightening. I don't place Ali on a pedestal, he was a great fighter, entertaining personality.. but he was still flawed like every other man.

Bro, how many heavy weight champs aren't womanizers. I don't agree with it, but when your the alpha male of the human race... it gets to your head and your morals. no it's weakness actually. if that alpha male shit gets in your head, and makes you like that your very far from being a real alpha. percieved roles are far from reality!

What I am saying here is, he is a proven track record of betraying and lying that doesnt just apply to Frazier. I mean Ali called Frazier an uncle tom, but met with the KKK for ****s sake! Yet he is encouraged a this huge role model and idolised, i think some of this is totally unjustified. your correct. he is portrayed in this hero light mostly now because of his illness, and many take a blind eye about the past. defending the wrong he did as many do is just a way for them in justifing there own issues. does not make it right. he was a great fighter, and great for the sport, but he did some foul things.

Bro, how many heavy weight champs aren't womanizers. I don't agree with it, but when your the alpha male of the human race... it gets to your head and your morals. What I am saying here is, he is a proven track record of betraying and lying that doesnt just apply to Frazier. I mean Ali called Frazier an uncle tom, but met with the KKK for ****s sake! Yet he is encouraged a this huge role model and idolised, i think some of this is totally unjustified.

You can't blame Ali, it was very racial America back then. Ali was influenced by Nation of Islam, this breach of Islam is not considered to even be part of Islam by most. NOI is just a black supremacist group which used Ali to teach their propaganda same with Malcom X Ali evetaully become Sunni Muslim and didn't have any racial views like a real Muslim, juts like Malcolm X That makes it okay? Frazier's family gets death threats cos Ali tells the world he is working for the enemy. Frazier lends Ali money and helps Ali out, Ali returns the favor by calling him an uncle tom, a gorilla and saying Frazier was owned by white people. One of the most influential sports stars says these things at a time of heightened racial tension. But its okay cos Ali couldn't think for himself and was brainwashed?

Bro, how many heavy weight champs aren't womanizers. I don't agree with it, but when your the alpha male of the human race... it gets to your head and your morals.

That film almost went out of its way to make Ali look vicious. To a degree he is overly portrayed as the hero in the media. However, i think when you ballance everything else Ali did in his life which was good or honurable... it may cancel out his cruel treatment towards Frazier ... I might note; I attribute Ali's treatment of Frazier to being brainwashed by the NOI, they made him think that anyone who is black and doesn't take MAJOR pride in being black.... is somewhat sub-human. I agree about the NOI, but look at how Ali treated others in his life. His treatment of his wife was disgusting to, apparently he used to knock her about as well ( now that hasnt been confirmed as far as I have seen), he was serial womanizer though.