How to get fighters to fight in their Natural Weight classes...would this work?

Joey Gamache's case against NYSAC on after 9-year wait BY MITCH ABRAMSON DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Monday, December 22nd 2008, 9:10 PM http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/12/23/alg_gamache.jpg For a brief moment, Joey Gamache was flying through space. When he finally crashed down in the ring at Madison Square Garden nearly nine years ago, his retirement and the kernels of a lawsuit would be hatched. Three judges and a trio of attorneys later, Gamache will finally get his day in court. On Monday, Judge Melvin Schweitzer of the New York Court of Claims produced a 26-page decision, sending the civil case to trial and beginning the process of resolving a matter that has been shrouded in controversy throughout this decade. Gamache contends that Arturo Gatti, his opponent for his Feb.26, 2000, bout, was allowed to weigh in over the agreed-upon weight limit of 141 pounds and that Gatti was given an unfair advantage in the ring. The night of the bout, Gatti reportedly weighed 160 pounds, according to HBO scales, while Gamache, who made weight the day before, checked in at 145 pounds. The result was inevitable. Gamache was nearly decapitated in the second round, retired from the sport on his way back to the dressing room and was reported to have sustained permanent brain damage. Shortly thereafter, Gamache filed a lawsuit against the New York State Athletic Commission, alleging fraud, breach of contract and negligence at the Feb.25 weigh-in. Two of the causes were thrown out, while the negligence cause of action withstood. "We're extremely pleased that by making this decision the court is saying loud and clear that the commission can and will be held responsible when they conduct themselves in a negligent manner that results in injuries to the fighters," said Gamache's attorney, Keith Sullivan. "They had a duty that day that when Joey weighed in at 141 pounds, that his opponent also weighed in at the same weight. It's disgraceful." No trial date has been set, nor has compensation been discussed, but Sullivan expects the case to begin in February or March. Gamache, 42, lives in Manhattan and works as a boxing trainer. A year after Gamache's alleged incident at the weigh-in, Beethaeven Scottland was killed because of injuries incurred in the ring against George Khalid Jones at the U.S.S. Intrepid. Sullivan described the New York State Commission back then as "a festering ground of political patronage with guys who didn't have the knowledge or skills to help the fighters."

This topic was brought up with the Pac vs. Floyd possible fight. Pac weighs in at 147 for his 135 pound fights. This past fight he weighed in at 149 {correct me if I'm wrong}. When Pac fights at 140, he will probably stick at 149 for his fight time weight. How is he able to do this? Like most fighters, they dehydrate for the weigh-in and then rehydrate by fight time. So, they are not 140 pound fighters by fight time. Floyd, who fights at 147, fights at around 149 come fight time. So why is one fighter fighting at 135-140 division, and the other at 147 division? And why is it that fighters at 135 can weigh-in at 147 come fight time? Or in other words, why was Pac allowed to fight at 135...or Margarito who weighs like 160 pounds by fight time allowed to fight as a Welterweight? So I wonder...If, they were to make new rules up could it change the face of boxing for the better. Not only to make it more fair for the fighters to face fighters their own weight, but for the safety of the fighters as well since we wouldn't have to have fighters draining themselves and trying to put back weight on for the fight. Or over-training themselves during the training camp to make weight. Remember Gatti vs. Gamache? For example: We have Floyd and Pac, both weigh 149 pounds for their fights. 149 is closer to 147 so let's put them in the Welterweight class. They can lose two pounds. Rules: A fighter must weigh-in at 147 one day before the fight or, 147 the day of the fight. If a Fighter is over the 147 limit by the next weigh-in, which will be 3 hours before the fight, he will be deducted money from his paycheck...unless, it is put in the contract for a 5 pound wiggle room. If that is the case, then anything over 5 pounds you are deducted money. And, if you are over that 5 pound limit and the opponent no longer once to fight you because of the unfair advantage and now since we have to cancel the fight...you are suspended from boxing for 1 year. I'll think about if I want to make it harsher to avoid what I just said. Maybe 2-3 years might kick their ass in gear to stay on weight. This way, fighters will have to fight at their healthy weight. Because if they don't, one of two things will happen: One, if they don't make weight and are over the limit, they are out of work for the next 1-3 years. In this case, I'm for the 5 pound wiggle room. Two: If they have to over-train and drain themselves for the fight because they wanted an unfair advantage of fighting a smaller opponent, they will wind up like Oscar; dead by fight time. It's the fighter’s risk. So what will he choose? Fighting at a healthy weight or taking the risk of showing up dead by fight time? Add your thoughts and corrections. I like your idea... In alot of Kickboxing organizations (Including the one I fought under) their are same day weigh ins. You get weighed in and then have a physical afterwards. There are usually 18-20 fighters on each card and everything seems to work pretty smoothly!!! Pros as well as amateur weigh in the same day. every once in a while a fight is scrapped because someone can't make weight, butour trainers monitor our weigh at two points (or our suppose to) 2 week mark and 1 week mark prior to the fight. As a athlete I always felt safer knowing that my opponent was physically the same weight as I was!!

Here are some Data Boxing punch statistics that I found from boxrec.com: Blows- Carter 193/409 47%, Mims 120/360 33% W10 Blows- Louis 58/73 79%, Baer 9/24 38% TKO1 Blows- Zale 89/124 72%, Graziano 36/75 48% KO3 Blows- Charles 154/450 34%, Layne 99/440 23% W10 Blows- Jones 322/407 57%; Robinson 176/514 34% W10

I think that the amount of punches thrown today compared to the pre 1980 fights is suspicious. No proofs it just me personally. Interesting. Is there data on this? I've always wondered what the punch-stats are for comparing eras. Way back when, they seem to barely throw and then over the years they seem to throw more and more but I don't know if fighters today really throw anymore than they did yesterday and it would also depend on the fighter. I've heard one of the reasons before that fighters way back wanted to conserve their hands for the next fight which was soon to be. Then you also have the injured fighters that had to fight. I don't know. You could probably add in longer rounds so maybe it plays on your mind to conserve for the long haul. One thing is for sure, if what you are saying is true, then some of those mythical fights like the Sam McVey vs. Joe Jeannette needs to be called on. But maybe to them it was seen different and acition packed compared to the slower, boring fights. But then we have fighters like Armstrong and Marciano who are talked about as the two Secretariats of boxing. At least we have film on these two because I think it personally gets out of hand. I'll have to watch fights over again and compare. Still wonder if there are stat references.

You think the fighters of today have better stamina? Fighters of the past also fought more so wouldn't that hinder their performance in follow-up fights that are to close together...also risking further injury? Or would it help to have rested fighters coming in fresher? Although, less pay also might fuel the fighter to fight hard or maybe just do enough to win because he knows he has to fight again soon. I think that the amount of punches thrown today compared to the pre 1980 fights is suspicious. No proofs it just me personally.

As a slight side note to that statistic I take the liberty to speculate that many signifikant injuries due to prolonged beatings are caused by fighters being on EPO. That greatly enhances stamina so when your body under normal conditions would have given up it just continues. But that's really not what this thread is about :) You think the fighters of today have better stamina? Fighters of the past also fought more so wouldn't that hinder their performance in follow-up fights that are to close together...also risking further injury? Or would it help to have rested fighters coming in fresher? Although, less pay also might fuel the fighter to fight hard or maybe just do enough to win because he knows he has to fight again soon.

An interesting story about this fight is that the ring doctor was actually convicted of manslaughter after Jacopucci died. I'm not sure why but I'll try to find out. Lol you were a bit quicker than me there! He did. So it says on boxrec.

Sorry I thought you meant world championship fights. Eipel suffered a brain injury which ended his career but didn't kill him since he is still alive. He was fighting for the EBU title. I was thinking fights of championship distance. Jacopucci died in a fight with Alan Minter: http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=26778&cat=boxer

Angelo Jacopucci was injured against future middleweight champion Alan Minter in a fight for the EBU title and died 5 months later. An interesting story about this fight is that the ring doctor was actually convicted of manslaughter after Jacopucci died. I'm not sure why but I'll try to find out.

Sorry I thought you meant world championship fights. Eipel suffered a brain injury which ended his career but didn't kill him since he is still alive. He was fighting for the EBU title. Angelo Jacopucci was injured against future middleweight champion Alan Minter in a fight for the EBU title and died 5 months later.

Are you sure? I think I remember Jörg Eipel being braininjured by Alain Marion and wasn't there a guy named Jacopucci or something? And those cases is Europe only. Sorry I thought you meant world championship fights. Eipel suffered a brain injury which ended his career but didn't kill him since he is still alive. He was fighting for the EBU title.

I believe there were no ring deaths in championship fights during the 1950's and 1970's. Are you sure? I think I remember Jörg Eipel being braininjured by Alain Marion and wasn't there a guy named Jacopucci or something? And those cases is Europe only.

In the 1960's when there were more critics of boxing than probably at any point in history who campaigned for boxing to be abolished, there were around 55 ring deaths. In the 1990's there were also 55 ring deaths, not including severe brain injuries such as Gerald McClellan, Michael Watson, Akeem Anifowoshe, etc. As a slight side note to that statistic I take the liberty to speculate that many signifikant injuries due to prolonged beatings are caused by fighters being on EPO. That greatly enhances stamina so when your body under normal conditions would have given up it just continues. But that's really not what this thread is about :)

To gauge that properly you would have to test ring fatalities in percent of championship fights in the new regime in contrast to the old. I haven't seen such a statistic. I believe there were no ring deaths in championship fights during the 1950's and 1970's.

In the 1960's when there were more critics of boxing than probably at any point in history who campaigned for boxing to be abolished, there were around 55 ring deaths. In the 1990's there were also 55 ring deaths, not including severe brain injuries such as Gerald McClellan, Michael Watson, Akeem Anifowoshe, etc.

List of boxing deaths: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm Doesn't seem like the day before weigh-in's and 12 rounders affected the death statistics one bit. There are actually more cases of fighters being dehydrated with the new rules. Look at Gerald McClellan for example, he was known to dehydrate himself and put on around 20 lbs after the weigh-in's. To gauge that properly you would have to test ring fatalities in percent of championship fights in the new regime in contrast to the old. I haven't seen such a statistic.

List of boxing deaths: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm Doesn't seem like the day before weigh-in's and 12 rounders affected the death statistics one bit. There are actually more cases of fighters being dehydrated with the new rules. Look at Gerald McClellan for example, he was known to dehydrate himself and put on around 20 lbs after the weigh-in's.

I don't thnk there was an exact norm. Later I think the norm was given by the variuos governing bodies. I hear your arguments for a rules change regarding weigh-in procedures and that might be appropriate. I doubt if anyone would say that the rules of today is perfect, but it is the general belief (I think), that todays standard is better than the standards pre Kim-Mancini. I would think a possible change could be an extra weigh-in some 12 or six hours before fight-time. The rules for that weigh-in could be that a fighter is only allowed to gain say 10% or something. That might keep Arthur Abraham and others from making those risky dehydrations. Hmmm...wasn't there a weigh-in the day of the Hatton vs. Tszyu fight or was that the day before? Noon time I think. IBF rules?

great thread.. very interesting we need less divisions and i think we should have 1 or 2 belts at the most for each division.. they could expand the weight range of certain divisions to deal with the weight issue or like the starter of the thread suggested docking pay from the purse as a penalty of a fighter weighing in like 20 pounds over the agreed weight limit the day of the fight is a good idea

Thanks for the link Was that the norm? Government can set the rule. Have one set standard rule or maybe it will fall to the State...as well as the fighters agreeing on it. I don't know...everything I thought of at the moment is on my thread although I think I left out what I just added with having a Doctor give a physical the day of the fight to check the fighter's health. Either way...it should be at least discussed and have Doctors opinion on the matter with promoters left out of the discussion. Fighters can be heard. I would be in favor of the idea carefully being written out and passed along to the fighters and have them vote on it to see what they say. If they say it is cool the way it is now...I'm OK with it. But the idea should be at least brought up since fighters usually just follow suit. I don't thnk there was an exact norm. Later I think the norm was given by the variuos governing bodies. I hear your arguments for a rules change regarding weigh-in procedures and that might be appropriate. I doubt if anyone would say that the rules of today is perfect, but it is the general belief (I think), that todays standard is better than the standards pre Kim-Mancini. I would think a possible change could be an extra weigh-in some 12 or six hours before fight-time. The rules for that weigh-in could be that a fighter is only allowed to gain say 10% or something. That might keep Arthur Abraham and others from making those risky dehydrations.