did Jones avoid the best fighters and fight so cautiously cause

This was a ranking from the end of 1992, and there were allot of fights from then until the fight that happened in may,including the ones that B-hop and Jones both had that year before they fought and the one 2 weeks earlier between McClellan and Jackson. . Here are the 1993 rankings with Hopkins still down in 8th place. http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_1993 Now tell me how or why Hopkins was able to move from 9th to 2nd in the space of a few months having not fought a single top 10 Middleweight in that time. The only one he did fight was Jones and he lost. How does he make that jump? And then, how does he plummet all the way back down again below the same guys? Give me a good reason. You asked for evidence, I gave it. You havent provided one piece of evidence which says Hopkins was the best middleweight at that time except "cos he just was OK!!". :lol1: You clearly werent watching boxing back then.

Don't matter any way you look at it. DM was never a lineal champ @ LHW. Who was then? He was never even unified longer than a fight or two. What does this even mean? Did he lose the titles he unified in the ring? Hell, he never even fought outside of Germany/Europe and fought mostly cream-puffs. Jones never fought outside America against mostly the same cream-puffs. Jones was ranked higher and the money draw during his entire stay @ LHW. You go to the champ and the money maker. Dariusz did'nt come over therefore, he would be at more fault than Roy for the fight not happening. Jones was the draw but the champ? No. You dont just get handed the title of champ. You have to beat the man. And Jones didnt do that. Dariusz didnt come over? Whats he supposed to do? Come over, stand in a ring and wait for Jones to come out. This isnt WWE

If we're looking at it from a purely boxing standpoint, I've always thought that the challenger should go to the champion. And Dariusz was the lineal, unified, undefeated champion before Jones entered the division. For Jones to call himself the man, surely he has to go and take the title off the man. I realise that Jones being the name, ppv draw etc etc means that it cant work that way. But logically, it should be the way things are. I dont think the organisations could do anything. Roy was defending against mandatories like Woods and co to satisfy one sanctioning body. Dariusz was defending against WBO mandos. You can make up as many excuses as you want, I think if Roy really wanted the fight, it would've happened. As is the case with many other potential fights. As for the Tszyu stuff. Shane Mosely skipped over the entire 140lb division. Oscar bailed the division pretty quickly too. I think Tszyu, like Dariusz, was an unneccesary risk for a lot of those guys. Yes, I'm with you on that as well; you go where the lineal Champion is; however, that is not the case in a business. Even Tszyu went to Australia because that was where the opportunity was; that's where the money was. Then he saw America was the Money place and went there. And then of course England for Hatton. Ali even discussed the topic of going wherever and whoever had the money...money dictates. Money always dictated Roy's decision...it did for Dariusz as well...which is why he said he would come to America as long as he got his share, which he didn't specify. Somebody posted it up on boxingscene a while back. It works both ways: Roy and Dariusz could have made the fight happen if they wanted to, but they didn't; money dictates and ego dictates. If Dariusz wanted it so bad he could have came to America and fought Jones for free. This way, Roy would have his money since the millions that would have been given to D.M. would be in Roy's pocket. Please, we all know why Shane skipped 140. Tszyu got his head bashed in by Vince Phillips so the fight between Tszyu and Oscar was cancelled. Oscar moved up to 147 and Shane went for the GOLD. It's kind of hard to say Shane avoided Tszyu when everybody knows Shane Mosley went after the best: he went after Oscar, Forrest, Winky... Oscar went after Tito, fought Shane, and Hopkins. Tszyu: one of my favorite fighters, a very good fighter, but never stepped up to face the elites like Shane, Oscar, Tito and Forrest. He lost to Phillips. The other thing with both fighters, Shane and Oscar, both struggled to make lightweight and thought 5 pounds wasn't going to cut it so they moved right up to a healthier weight...147. They were there, Tszyu stayed at 140. The Money and Legacy fights were at 147. And tell me this, why didn't Kostya move up to 147 to challenge Shane, Oscar, Tito, and Forrest?

It depends: If Roy wanted 10 million to fight Dariusz in America, yeah, then that is a bitch move. If he wanted to take his chance on making the money he thought he could make, 10 million, then he would just have to make it PPV and whatever he was worth to the fans he would get. If it was 10 million to go to Germany, then I have no problem with that in regards to Roy's issues of fighting overseas and being ripped off...even though for me, I think Roy should have went if it was say 7 million...or something just above his pay-grade since it would be a Mega-fight. Dariusz would also have to make sure it was not only a good offer but at least 50/50 since if the split goes in Dariusz favor, you know Roy's ego will not allow that. I'm not sure why they didn't get a fight with Roy Jones jr. or why the organizations didn't make Roy fight...I concede that. I'll have to look into it. What's your reasoning? Sources would be good. It took time for Lennox to get certain fights as well. But many other fighters from foreign countries do get the fights they want. Tszyu was successful here and I've always said he could have easily gotten into the mix at 147 when Shane, oscar, Tito, and Forrest were there...why he didn't... Tszyu got his biggest payday fighting in England...which is why he took the fight. Tszyu wasn't also as popular in America or the World of boxing as Roy Jones Jr. nor was he getting paid like Roy, so of course he wasn't going to make what Roy wanted. Do you know what Kostya's biggest payday was before Hatton as well as the amount after everything was tallied for their fight? If we're looking at it from a purely boxing standpoint, I've always thought that the challenger should go to the champion. And Dariusz was the lineal, unified, undefeated champion before Jones entered the division. For Jones to call himself the man, surely he has to go and take the title off the man. I realise that Jones being the name, ppv draw etc etc means that it cant work that way. But logically, it should be the way things are. I dont think the organisations could do anything. Roy was defending against mandatories like Woods and co to satisfy one sanctioning body. Dariusz was defending against WBO mandos. You can make up as many excuses as you want, I think if Roy really wanted the fight, it would've happened. As is the case with many other potential fights. As for the Tszyu stuff. Shane Mosely skipped over the entire 140lb division. Oscar bailed the division pretty quickly too. I think Tszyu, like Dariusz, was an unneccesary risk for a lot of those guys.

He meant Germany - dig through your "sources" and you'll find it. Oh wait, no you won't lololol. "lololol". Nice. :dunce: Once again, this is one of those situations where I need not do anything. The source I posted earlier didnt specify that the fight had to be in Germany. You are adament that he "meant" in Germany. If thats the case, then its down to you to provide evidence. Give it a go. Im not saying its wrong, just looking for clarification. Cheers. As for Tszyu making 500-700k, you don't need sources to tell you that - your common sense should tell you that. Why would common sense give you such a random figure? I dont doubt Tyszu was well paid for the Hatton fight. What the figure actually was and what he was actually making before is not exactly common knowledge. Once again, feel free to prove otherwise. Were you at the meetings or something? Have you proof read one of Tszyu's contracts? Its seems that you think you know more than you actually do.

Im just guessing this is one of those threads to get people going. No one is this stupid.

He meant Germany - dig through your "sources" and you'll find it. Oh wait, no you won't lololol. As for Tszyu making 500-700k, you don't need sources to tell you that - your common sense should tell you that.

No. Common sense dictates. Like I told you, Benn, Eubank and Collins all fought in America, were all known to an American audience yet still couldnt get a fight with Jones. You didnt answer any of my points regarding that. Tell me what Calzaghe's plan of action shouldve been. And I'll name several fighters that did the same to no avail. Kostya was paid nowhere near $10m to fight Hatton. Let me get this straight, you're actually justifying Jones asking for $10m? You dont think thats pricing yourself out? I highly doubt Roy was raking in $10m to fight Richard Frazier and David Telesco. Roy wanted to be significantly paid for what he saw as a huge risk. And its not "according to me". Roy broadcast his demands on German TV. It depends: If Roy wanted 10 million to fight Dariusz in America, yeah, then that is a bitch move. If he wanted to take his chance on making the money he thought he could make, 10 million, then he would just have to make it PPV and whatever he was worth to the fans he would get. If it was 10 million to go to Germany, then I have no problem with that in regards to Roy's issues of fighting overseas and being ripped off...even though for me, I think Roy should have went if it was say 7 million...or something just above his pay-grade since it would be a Mega-fight. Dariusz would also have to make sure it was not only a good offer but at least 50/50 since if the split goes in Dariusz favor, you know Roy's ego will not allow that. I'm not sure why they didn't get a fight with Roy Jones jr. or why the organizations didn't make Roy fight...I concede that. I'll have to look into it. What's your reasoning? Sources would be good. It took time for Lennox to get certain fights as well. But many other fighters from foreign countries do get the fights they want. Tszyu was successful here and I've always said he could have easily gotten into the mix at 147 when Shane, oscar, Tito, and Forrest were there...why he didn't... Tszyu got his biggest payday fighting in England...which is why he took the fight. Tszyu wasn't also as popular in America or the World of boxing as Roy Jones Jr. nor was he getting paid like Roy, so of course he wasn't going to make what Roy wanted. Do you know what Kostya's biggest payday was before Hatton as well as the amount after everything was tallied for their fight?

He considered it a big risk because he'd be fighting in Dariusz's backyard - which is what Germany amounted to in Kohl's headquarters. Jones' paydays ranged from 2-5 mil per fight, barring the Tarver, Ruiz fights, etc - where he made considerably more. Essentially, he was asking for double what he normally got. Kostya Tszyu got 5 mil for Hatton which was WAY more than he got paid for his average fights - which neighbored between 500-700k. The source I read didnt specify that Jones wanted 10m to fight in Germany. It just said he wanted 10m to fight Dariusz, full stop. Couldnt comment on the Tszyu stuff, never seen any evidence

He considered it a big risk because he'd be fighting in Dariusz's backyard - which is what Germany amounted to in Kohl's headquarters. Jones' paydays ranged from 2-5 mil per fight, barring the Tarver, Ruiz fights, etc - where he made considerably more. Essentially, he was asking for double what he normally got. Kostya Tszyu got 5 mil for Hatton which was WAY more than he got paid for his average fights - which neighbored between 500-700k.

Why didn't they strip Roy if he ducked fighters? They should have. If Roy did duck fighters it can be viewed as a smart move and a bitch move. I still say Calzaghe was scared to fight a prime Roy Jones Jr. I think he was eventually stripped of the title that he was supposed to defend against Michael Nunn who was his long term mandatory. Smart move? Yeah probably because Jones allowed himself to showcase his talents against fighters that he knew wouldnt test him. He'd get a greater slice of the purse and keep his status as P4P number 1. Bitch move? Wouldnt say so. Dont think he was scared of anyone but scared of what he could stand to lose which outweighed the gain. And I still say you have zero basis to suggest that. Joe has wanted the Roy Jones and Hopkins fights for years.

For Calzaghe: AHHHHHH, so money does dictate. Ego dictates as well. No. Common sense dictates. Like I told you, Benn, Eubank and Collins all fought in America, were all known to an American audience yet still couldnt get a fight with Jones. You didnt answer any of my points regarding that. Tell me what Calzaghe's plan of action shouldve been. And I'll name several fighters that did the same to no avail. Back to Dariusz: It's your promoters job to get the fights, which includes Calzaghe...as well as the fighter forcing his promoter to get the fights. If you want a fighter of Roy's caliber to come over to the country you fight out of, you have to pay him big bucks. Frank Warren knew this when he wanted to get Tszyu in the ring. Kostya was paid nowhere near $10m to fight Hatton. Let me get this straight, you're actually justifying Jones asking for $10m? You dont think thats pricing yourself out? It would be interesting to read the run-down on the money Roy made for each fight since he wanted 10 million to fight Dariusz (according to you). Do we know how much Dariusz wanted for the fight? I highly doubt Roy was raking in $10m to fight Richard Frazier and David Telesco. Roy wanted to be significantly paid for what he saw as a huge risk. And its not "according to me". Roy broadcast his demands on German TV.

The source does not specify that the fight would have to take place in Germany. It merely states that Jones wanted $10m to fight Dariusz. A ridiculous and unreasonable demand. This is all based on the link you provided, which is clearly not credible so we can throw that out. What action was Calzaghe supposed to take? Fight on undercards in America against the same average opposition he was fighting at home in front of 20,000 for more money? And even then, theres no gurantee he would get the fight. Dariusz was a more deserving challenger, undefeated in 40 odd fights and the lineal champ at 175 yet Roy wouldnt fight him - what chance did Calzaghe have? Michael Nunn was Roy's madatory for a huge period of time at 175, yet Roy wouldnt fight him either. Coming to America didnt help Eubank, Benn or Collins get any closer to a fight with Jones. I didnt say Roy had to go anywhere. Roy was the one who suggested coming down to 168 and fighting either Sven Ottke or Calzaghe. He ended up doing neither and fighting the likes of Glen Kelly and Clinton Woods. For Calzaghe: AHHHHHH, so money does dictate. Ego dictates as well. Back to Dariusz: It's your promoters job to get the fights, which includes Calzaghe...as well as the fighter forcing his promoter to get the fights. If you want a fighter of Roy's caliber to come over to the country you fight out of, you have to pay him big bucks. Frank Warren knew this when he wanted to get Tszyu in the ring. It would be interesting to read the run-down on the money Roy made for each fight since he wanted 10 million to fight Dariusz (according to you). Do we know how much Dariusz wanted for the fight? There is a lot to think about. What goes on behind the scenes is said to be crazy. There was a documentary with Rahman's former manager about this...as well as other sources of interviews and books written about it. Why didn't they strip Roy if he ducked fighters? They should have. If Roy did ducked fighters it can be viewed as a smart move and a bitch move. And for a fighter to move back down, I wouldn't suggest it. I still say Calzaghe was scared to fight a prime Roy Jones Jr.

lol stop using taylor pavlik as an example, taylor was winning the fight before he got KO, Jackson got KTFO silly by McClellan, which would make sanctioning bodies and the ring adjust their ratings, so where Jones and Hopkins wouldnt normally have been the number 1 and 2, since most of the MW's moved up or lost they increased Jones and Hopkins ratings. and yes i know they didnt really have significant wins, but they didnt get to number 1 and 2 inside the ring, they simply got there because the other guys lost. So now it depends on who was winning the fight? I see.......i was unaware of this criteria. To me, I'd think Taylor would still be ranked number 2 because of the experience he'd gained, the number of championship fights he'd had, the number of times he'd defended his titles and the number of top middleweights he'd fought. Jackson had made 4 or 5 defences of his title before losing it to McClellan. And if you'd actually seen the fight, most had him winning too before being KOed by McClellan. So why then, does he suddenly get overtaken by a rookie with not one single significant let alone championship fight? It defies all logic. When you lose to another top guy in the division, it doesnt mean you suddenly plummet below everyone. And how does that explain McClellan who was still champion? How did Roy and Bernard manage to end up above him? Or Reggie Johnson? Or Mike McCallum?

Collins basically retired over the fact that he couldnt get Jones in the ring. He was scheduled to fight Calzaghe before the collapse in training. Its true all Collins wanted was Jones pity it didn't happen as Collins is a .......rd to boot. Then bring Calzaghe into the mix does Collins get past him or does he get beat on points to the younger man if so it would be down to Calzaghe's speed of hand & youth

STOP TALKING BULLSHIT. Jermain Taylor got knocked the **** out by Pavlik. Did that mean he suddenly dropped out of the top 2 middleweights? No. Jackson and McClellan were the 2 best, they fought and McClellan won. That doesnt suddenly mean Jackson drops below a guy who hadnt had one single significant fight at that point. How can you possibly justify that? Not only were Jackson and McClellan above Hopkins, so were McCallum, Kalambay and Reggie Johnson as Ive already explained. So again, ONE REASON why Bernard Hopkins was considered the best/2nd best/3rd best (which one is it now?) Middleweight at the time Roy fought him? Or are you finally gonna admit he wasnt? lol stop using taylor pavlik as an example, taylor was winning the fight before he got KO, Jackson got KTFO silly by McClellan, which would make sanctioning bodies and the ring adjust their ratings, so where Jones and Hopkins wouldnt normally have been the number 1 and 2, since most of the MW's moved up or lost they increased Jones and Hopkins ratings. and yes i know they didnt really have significant wins, but they didnt get to number 1 and 2 inside the ring, they simply got there because the other guys lost.

STEVE Collins said he'd fight RJJ with 2 men & a dog watching that's how much he wanted to fight him he even went into the ring after RJJ winning & challenged him it didn't happen finally it was signed but Collins collapsed in training had brain scan so that never came off all though Collins did say that RJJ might have won he would know he was in a fight. Collins basically retired over the fact that he couldnt get Jones in the ring. He was scheduled to fight Calzaghe before the collapse in training.

maybe because the top MW's either moved up or got KTFO STOP TALKING BULLSHIT. Jermain Taylor got knocked the **** out by Pavlik. Did that mean he suddenly dropped out of the top 2 middleweights? No. Jackson and McClellan were the 2 best, they fought and McClellan won. That doesnt suddenly mean Jackson drops below a guy who hadnt had one single significant fight at that point. How can you possibly justify that? Not only were Jackson and McClellan above Hopkins, so were McCallum, Kalambay and Reggie Johnson as Ive already explained. So again, ONE REASON why Bernard Hopkins was considered the best/2nd best/3rd best (which one is it now?) Middleweight at the time Roy fought him? Or are you finally gonna admit he wasnt?

My reasoning is that Hopkins had never had a significant fight, had never had a championship fight and had fought bums. How..........HOW does that make him a top 3 Middleweight? Give me one reason. I dare you. maybe because the top MW's either moved up or got KTFO

The source does not specify that the fight would have to take place in Germany. It merely states that Jones wanted $10m to fight Dariusz. A ridiculous and unreasonable demand. This is all based on the link you provided, which is clearly not credible so we can throw that out. What action was Calzaghe supposed to take? Fight on undercards in America against the same average opposition he was fighting at home in front of 20,000 for more money? And even then, theres no gurantee he would get the fight. Dariusz was a more deserving challenger, undefeated in 40 odd fights and the lineal champ at 175 yet Roy wouldnt fight him - what chance did Calzaghe have? Michael Nunn was Roy's madatory for a huge period of time at 175, yet Roy wouldnt fight him either. Coming to America didnt help Eubank, Benn or Collins get any closer to a fight with Jones. I didnt say Roy had to go anywhere. Roy was the one who suggested coming down to 168 and fighting either Sven Ottke or Calzaghe. He ended up doing neither and fighting the likes of Glen Kelly and Clinton Woods. STEVE Collins said he'd fight RJJ with 2 men & a dog watching that's how much he wanted to fight him he even went into the ring after RJJ winning & challenged him it didn't happen finally it was signed but Collins collapsed in training had brain scan so that never came off all though Collins did say that RJJ might have won he would know he was in a fight.