The big question concerning Pavlik and Calzaghe....

Btw. great discussion you two!

Sadly I believe that Calzaghe stands with what he says, and he'll be retirering after Jones. Unfortunatly Pavlik came in the wrong time of Calzaghe's carrier, would've been great if he had been here 2 years ago. I really hope to see Pavlik in some great matches though. But the best match in the world, for me, would be Calzaghe vs. Pavlik. Without doubt. I see Joe taking it. But the only factor I can't predict is Pavliks ability to keep punching. Could be too much to handle. But I don't know.

I agree about Kessler, in my view he is definitely better than Pavlik, and would beat him should they fight. As for whether Kessler deserves to fight Pavlik, I think you are underestimating what Kessler has achieved in boxing. His winning run at SMW was extremely impressive, with some wins and titles taken against some good (but not great) fighters. I think Kessler is easily the most 'proven' youngish boxer alongside Pavlik and Dawson (who also has some good wins) in those weight classes and in my view is just about the most credible opponent Pavlik could face. It is wrong to ignore victories over the type of guys Kessler has beat, especially considering the way Kessler beat them, because it is precisely the ability to outclass guys like this that distinguishes boxers from the pack in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kessler has no notable wins. I just think that Kessler's loss to Calzaghe gave more perspective to how good he is than any win of his yet. Not to take anything away from Librado Andrade or Anthony Mundane lol. I guess now that I think about it, Kessler would be the most worthy challenger for Pavlik to give a shot to, other than maybe Abraham.

I want Calzaghe to fight on, but I think something is telling him he can't do it anymore. Either his mind or his body... So I voted for the first option

I'm going to say something that most people would probably not agree with me on... But IMHO I think Kessler would have been a tougher fight for Calzaghe than Pavlik would be (if they fight). I believe Kessler is a more complete fighter than Pavlik is (although Pavlik might have a better killer instinct). Having said this though, I'm not so sure Kessler deserves a fight with Pavlik. Honestly, the best accomplishment Kessler has on his resume, that I can think of, is having gone 12 competitive rounds with Calzaghe lol. I mean that (close)loss to Calz was more of an accomplishment that any win he has on his resume. I don't think its fair to ask Pavlik to have to move up 2 weight divisions and fight Dawson to be worthy of fighting Calzaghe either. Although, beating Abraham would give good support to Pavlik's case. I think he'd easily beat Abraham too. I agree about Kessler, in my view he is definitely better than Pavlik, and would beat him should they fight. As for whether Kessler deserves to fight Pavlik, I think you are underestimating what Kessler has achieved in boxing. His winning run at SMW was extremely impressive, with some wins and titles taken against some good (but not great) fighters. I think Kessler is easily the most 'proven' youngish boxer alongside Pavlik and Dawson (who also has some good wins) in those weight classes and in my view is just about the most credible opponent Pavlik could face. It is wrong to ignore victories over the type of guys Kessler has beat, especially considering the way Kessler beat them, because it is precisely the ability to outclass guys like this that distinguishes boxers from the pack in the first place.

I do agree with you that it would be better if Calzaghe decided to demonstrate that he could eliminate the threat posed by Pavlik. I'm a boxing fan and a Calzaghe fan, and that would be a great fight in both instances. I completely agree with your assessment of Dawson, as yet he doesn't deserve a shot at Calzaghe, though if he gets past Tarver I'd see him as joining Pavlik at the front of the queue. I actually think Dawson would be Calzaghe's hardest fight by some distance, because I also agree that Calzaghe is not a LHW, he isn't as big as some of the guys there, and Dawson has that advantage plus youth, speed and skill. I'm a Calzaghe fan too, if you can't tell already hahaha. I like Pavlik too, but I have to admit, I like Calzaghe a littttttle bit more. And yes, I do think Dawson would be a huuuge challenge for Calzaghe. One he doesn't necessarily have to take, and I wouldn't knock him one bit if he never does. Not because I'm a nuthugger and I don't want to see Calzaghe lose, but because Calzaghe shouldn't really be fighting in light heavy in the first place.

I agree with you that from 160-175 Pavlik is the guy with the most standout recent achievements. The problem is that all that amounts to at the moment is two victories over Jermain Taylor, which is good, but hardly conclusive proof that he is the best fighter in those divisions. He has Abraham at 160, Kessler at 168, Dawson at 175, plus a few other names. Shouldn't Pavlik be required to show he is better than these guys before being elevated to 'Joe Calzaghe's defining opponent' status? I think he should. I'm going to say something that most people would probably not agree with me on... But IMHO I think Kessler would have been a tougher fight for Calzaghe than Pavlik would be (if they fight). I believe Kessler is a more complete fighter than Pavlik is (although Pavlik might have a better killer instinct). Having said this though, I'm not so sure Kessler deserves a fight with Pavlik. Honestly, the best accomplishment Kessler has on his resume, that I can think of, is having gone 12 competitive rounds with Calzaghe lol. I mean that (close)loss to Calz was more of an accomplishment that any win he has on his resume. I don't think its fair to ask Pavlik to have to move up 2 weight divisions and fight Dawson to be worthy of fighting Calzaghe either. Although, beating Abraham would give good support to Pavlik's case. I think he'd easily beat Abraham too.

If the fight doesn't go ahead i'll be pissed but then we can see Pavlik vs Abraham which would be a great fight. I've currently seen an interview with Kelly where he says that his focus is on Hopkins and then next on Abraham, because the fight with JC won't happen. Unfortunately, I can't find the link...:damnit:

I have always thought and still think that Calzaghe would beat Pavlik to a pretty wide UD. So I definitely think the burden is on Pavlik to prove that he can beat Calzaghe, rather than the other way around. However, I think with Calzaghe touting himself as the legend killer (and as a legend himself) the burden does fall on him to give anyone out there that is a major threat a shot before he retires. I think Pavlik falls under that category because of the emphatic way he's knocked out and cleaned out everyone and unified his division. Dawson, however, doesn't deserve to fight Calzaghe because: 1. He isn't undisputed in his weight class in the same way Pavlik is. (Pavlik realistically doesn't have any threats in his weight class anymore). 2. I never thought light heavy was a natural weight class for Calzaghe to begin with. He wouldn't be able to sit down on his punches in that division and wouldn't be able to fight his normal style, and I felt that going up to light heavy was only so that he could fight hopkins there. I do agree with you that it would be better if Calzaghe decided to demonstrate that he could eliminate the threat posed by Pavlik. I'm a boxing fan and a Calzaghe fan, and that would be a great fight in both instances. I completely agree with your assessment of Dawson, as yet he doesn't deserve a shot at Calzaghe, though if he gets past Tarver I'd see him as joining Pavlik at the front of the queue. I actually think Dawson would be Calzaghe's hardest fight by some distance, because I also agree that Calzaghe is not a LHW, he isn't as big as some of the guys there, and Dawson has that advantage plus youth, speed and skill.

If the fight doesn't go ahead i'll be pissed but then we can see Pavlik vs Abraham which would be a great fight.

Fair enough. I'm sure Joe does want to retire with his 0 intact. I think its a little harsh to elevate Pavlik to some sort of 'arbiter of greatness' position and claim that Joe is somehow a coward for not fighting him. Like I said, Pavlik is the MW champ of the world and has only beaten one good opponent. I think Calzaghe will feel that he has been there and done that with victories over Lacy and Kessler. There is always another young guy to fight, if Calz beat Pavlik and Dawson beat Tarver the clamour for that fight would start. It seems to me its precisely why retirement is so difficult, you have to go sometime, even though the whole world screams at you not to. Thats why most fighters wind up being retired by boxing, rather than from it. If Calzone really feels he is declining, (which he must if he's talking retirement) then surely the smart thing to do is go through with it? I have always thought and still think that Calzaghe would beat Pavlik to a pretty wide UD. So I definitely think the burden is on Pavlik to prove that he can beat Calzaghe, rather than the other way around. However, I think with Calzaghe touting himself as the legend killer (and as a legend himself) the burden does fall on him to give anyone out there that is a major threat a shot before he retires. I think Pavlik falls under that category because of the emphatic way he's knocked out and cleaned out everyone and unified his division. Dawson, however, doesn't deserve to fight Calzaghe because: 1. He isn't undisputed in his weight class in the same way Pavlik is. (Pavlik realistically doesn't have any threats in his weight class anymore). 2. I never thought light heavy was a natural weight class for Calzaghe to begin with. He wouldn't be able to sit down on his punches in that division and wouldn't be able to fight his normal style, and I felt that going up to light heavy was only so that he could fight hopkins there.

Yeah, that might be true that Pavlik is a relatively new champion. But realistically, after Calzaghe beat Kessler, and after Pavlik beat Taylor for the second time, who else was there in SMW? Everyone knew Pavlik was the only real challenge left for Calzaghe, regardless of whether Pavlik was a day old champion or a 10 year champion. I agree with you that from 160-175 Pavlik is the guy with the most standout recent achievements. The problem is that all that amounts to at the moment is two victories over Jermain Taylor, which is good, but hardly conclusive proof that he is the best fighter in those divisions. He has Abraham at 160, Kessler at 168, Dawson at 175, plus a few other names. Shouldn't Pavlik be required to show he is better than these guys before being elevated to 'Joe Calzaghe's defining opponent' status? I think he should.

See, the only reason I can see of this fight not happening is because Calzaghe comes off to me as a dude that seriously cherishes his 0 more than anything. For some reason he comes off to me as being content just retiring knowing he's never been beaten. And I think retiring unbeaten seems more important to him sometimes than taking a chance at losing and knowing he's fought every worthy opponent. Fair enough. I'm sure Joe does want to retire with his 0 intact. I think its a little harsh to elevate Pavlik to some sort of 'arbiter of greatness' position and claim that Joe is somehow a coward for not fighting him. Like I said, Pavlik is the MW champ of the world and has only beaten one good opponent. I think Calzaghe will feel that he has been there and done that with victories over Lacy and Kessler. There is always another young guy to fight, if Calz beat Pavlik and Dawson beat Tarver the clamour for that fight would start. It seems to me its precisely why retirement is so difficult, you have to go sometime, even though the whole world screams at you not to. Thats why most fighters wind up being retired by boxing, rather than from it. If Calzone really feels he is declining, (which he must if he's talking retirement) then surely the smart thing to do is go through with it?

I doubt it, I think Calzaghe is serious about his retirement, although I'm hoping they will fight.

The bottom line for me is that in reality its absurd for Pavlik to claim Joe is 'ducking' him, when he is basically a brand new MW champion with a single defence. Joe was in his position years ago and has rightfully asked what Pavlik has done to deserve a shot at him. If Pavlik can get past Hopkins then his case improves dramatically, though I think he will lose to B-Hop. Yeah, that might be true that Pavlik is a relatively new champion. But realistically, after Calzaghe beat Kessler, and after Pavlik beat Taylor for the second time, who else was there in SMW? Everyone knew Pavlik was the only real challenge left for Calzaghe, regardless of whether Pavlik was a day old champion or a 10 year champion.

It depends how they win these fights. If Calzaghe knocks Jones out (unlikley, but could happen) he will retire. If he gets a decision over Jones he will probably go for Pavlik. Hopkins has a chance against Pavlik, i'm still picking Pavlik to win but it will be a scrappy fight which could go either way.

They're talking about it a hell of a lot, if both get past their respective opponents then pavlik will have just beaten the guy Joe beat at LHW, and it would probably make more than Calz v Jones and be a career best payday for both fighters. I think it will happen. See, the only reason I can see of this fight not happening is because Calzaghe comes off to me as a dude that seriously cherishes his 0 more than anything. For some reason he comes off to me as being content just retiring knowing he's never been beaten. And I think retiring unbeaten seems more important to him sometimes than taking a chance at losing and knowing he's fought every worthy opponent.

I honestly don't know. I know you can't believe all the accounts by the fighters/managers/trainers on who ducked who and when, but I just don't see Pavlik as the type of guy to duck anybody. I'm leaning toward believing the Pavlik camp moreso than the Calzaghe camp. Yet this is weird to me because I honestly think Calzaghe is the better fighter, and I think he'd win if they ever were to fight. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but love and respect for both fighters. I just simply see Calzaghe as having the deeper skillset. The bottom line for me is that in reality its absurd for Pavlik to claim Joe is 'ducking' him, when he is basically a brand new MW champion with a single defence. Joe was in his position years ago and has rightfully asked what Pavlik has done to deserve a shot at him. If Pavlik can get past Hopkins then his case improves dramatically, though I think he will lose to B-Hop.

I honestly don't know. I know you can't believe all the accounts by the fighters/managers/trainers on who ducked who and when, but I just don't see Pavlik as the type of guy to duck anybody. I'm leaning toward believing the Pavlik camp moreso than the Calzaghe camp. Yet this is weird to me because I honestly think Calzaghe is the better fighter, and I think he'd win if they ever were to fight. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but love and respect for both fighters. I just simply see Calzaghe as having the deeper skillset.

I do think Joe will take the fight.