A question...

But Joe could still have made a push to fight Ottke or in the US thereby securing his legacy. As for Ottke. Yes he did have many questionable decisions. Heck I should know since I probably watched all his (boring) defenses. When the decision is announced and it goes against your winner allways ask yourself if you COULD honestly see the other guy winning, and I could see Ottke win (cannot single out the Reid fight sorry). And check Ottkes defenses; some mighty fine wins there. Ohhhhh sh!t!! I cannot believe I'm here defending Sven 'Slugger' Ottke. I never thought I would see the day someone defended him either, lol. But in allseriousness, there are indeed a few good defenses, the sad thing is they get glossed over when talking about him because of all the dodgy decisions he has received. The Reid fight was the single most sickeninh thing I have ever seen. He scored a valid KD that was not ruled, even though it was clear as day and the ref was right there to see that it was not a slip. He even had a point taken away for having the audacity to punch Ottke in the face. It was not really that close, and it wasn't really so close that Ottke could have won it. I had Reid winning by 4 or 5 points I think it was, not sure and can't rewatch it now, but the fight was given to Ottke by margins of 117-112, 115-113 and 115-113. Have you seen the Danny Williams vs Airich fight yet? It was very similiar in the vibe you got watching it, you just knew that Reid could do nothing that could hand him the W. A draw would have been a bad decision, let alone a UD for Ottke. It's a well known saying that even Ali couldn't have beaten Ottke in Germany.

Clinton Woods? Tarver? I'm sure in Boxing Monthly mag when it was doin Cals and Hattons top 10 fighters BM would like them to fight, cal said he didnt see the point in fighting either of they guys cos they werent "big names" That's now, not then. Calzaghe has paid his dues and is winding down his career. He wants only legacy defining fights now, and if they happen to earn him the most money he is not going to complain.

Clinton Woods? Tarver? I'm sure in Boxing Monthly mag when it was doin Cals and Hattons top 10 fighters BM would like them to fight, cal said he didnt see the point in fighting either of they guys cos they werent "big names"

But Joe has never had a questionable decision in Cardiff, Ottke has had many in Germany. The only fight that was close enough to be called the other way was against Robin Reid (who DID get robbed in Germany, fighting none other than Sven Ottke) in Newcastle, nowhere near Cardiff, or indeed Wales. But Joe could still have made a push to fight Ottke or in the US thereby securing his legacy. As for Ottke. Yes he did have many questionable decisions. Heck I should know since I probably watched all his (boring) defenses. When the decision is announced and it goes against your winner allways ask yourself if you COULD honestly see the other guy winning, and I could see Ottke win (cannot single out the Reid fight sorry). And check Ottkes defenses; some mighty fine wins there. Ohhhhh sh!t!! I cannot believe I'm here defending Sven 'Slugger' Ottke.

The exact same thing could be said for Ottke should he fight in Cardiff. Joes management failed to take the risks when Joe was in his prime. Warren is to blame but so is Joe. He could have pushed harder for an Ottke fight or a fight in america. They failed and thats why Joe is a great fighter who could have been greater. That is actually one of the first threads I made since joining this forum with the opening post my view of Joe's legacy: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169794 But Joe has never had a questionable decision in Cardiff, Ottke has had many in Germany. The only fight that was close enough to be called the other way was against Robin Reid (who DID get robbed in Germany, fighting none other than Sven Ottke) in Newcastle, nowhere near Cardiff, or indeed Wales.

I could understand why Joe chose not to fight in Germany because there was an overwhelming chance he would be robbed like the other fighters that fought Ottke. Nobody could beat Ottke in Germany. Not even Tye Fields. The exact same thing could be said for Ottke should he fight in Cardiff. Joes management failed to take the risks when Joe was in his prime. Warren is to blame but so is Joe. He could have pushed harder for an Ottke fight or a fight in america. They failed and thats why Joe is a great fighter who could have been greater. That is actually one of the first threads I made since joining this forum with the opening post my view of Joe's legacy: http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169794

Umm, because people troll a lot? I mean his level of opposition WAS low. He's at least fighting people with names now. That's pretty much that. It's his fault that it was low. I take issue with THAT part. That aside, it's pretty clear that he may have been "protected" or "fighting bums" or whatever people say but he has a lot of talent and is clearly a very good fighter. He's proven that even if he's overrated he's not a bum and he doesn't suck. He's got tons of natural talent. Speed. Great durablity/chin and an iron will. So what if he's deficient in some other areas? Why does this get to you? This question HAS been listed several times before. You can name any of these guys: Roy Hopkins Toney Griffin Dariusz blah blah blah blha The true answer is, no one. If he had stayed in the super middleweight division which he did after Roy and toney left, well he was going to fight bums. Guess what? It's a WORTHLESS division. That was his choice to some extent, and some of it not, just being his weight. How much criticism he should get for that is up for debate, but what's not up for debate is that he HAD a weak resume. Why? Lots of reasons, like the ones abadger listed, and others like well you know the SMW division sucking ass. Joe was pretty much restricted due to his weight, and the fact that he wasn't a big name meant that he couldn't get a fight with one of the "big dogs" so to speak. This was Joe's big problem, he wasn't a big enough name when he had his title to get a big fight. Contrary to popular belief, this is not Frank Warren's fault. He actually turned pro under Mickey Duff, who did little to no promotional work and effectively left one of the best fighters around out in the cold for a number of years. When Joe got his title shot, he had only been the distance once, an eight rounder that was actually against Chris Eubanks cousin, Bobbie Joe Edwards. These days, a man who is blitzing through the division in the way Joe did back then would be a huge star by the time they held a belt. As it happened, that wasn't the case, and Joe was left to fight mandatories. If his career had been managed properly from the off, he would have been fighting the RJJ's and the Hopkins' of this world a damn sight sooner than now, but it wasn't, and that's a shame. As for Ottke, the guy has more gifts than Santa Claus, I wouldn't blame ANY fighter for not going to Germany, where you had to KO him to get a draw, which was near enough impossible due to his granite chin. There isn't really anybody else Joe could have fought in his division in his era, yet he receives possibly the most stick resume-wise on these forums, for circumstances completely beyond his control. He could only beat the man in front of him, and he did, 45 times.

Kessler went to Cardiff. Calzaghe refused to go to Copenhagen. If Joe was so sure of winning over Ottke, why didnt he go to Germany? I honestly believe that Joes handlers was unaware of his true greatness, so they kept protecting him by keeping him home in Britain. And why didnt Joe fight Nunn or Frankie Liles? I agree that it is unlikely Joe's people knew he was as good as he has turned out to be, I mean who would have predicted an undefeated career and ten year reign? To do so would have been madness. With Nunn, the guy was an aging fading ex SMW champ who moved up to LHW in 97 the year Joe won his title. Between 97 and 2000 there were much more compelling matchups to be made against the likes of Reid and Woodhall, since Joe was a UK fighter, and why should Joe have gone up to LHW immediately after winning his title? Liles would have made a good opponent in 1998 instead of Sobot or Ferreya, but it was a pretty narrow window of opportunity for what would have been only Joe's first or second defence, and then in 99 Liles lost to Byron Mitchell and effectively had his career ended. Calzaghe went on to beat Mitchell four years later.

A little known fact is that Tye actually worked in Ottke's corner for the Mundine fight. Now you know why he was such a beast for one night only. Fuck, I knew there was something up with that Mundine fight. I was wondering how the hell did Ottke obtain such menacing power and now I know why. How the hell did Ottke manage to sway Tye Fields into his corner I'll never know.

Kessler went to Cardiff. Calzaghe refused to go to Copenhagen. If Joe was so sure of winning over Ottke, why didnt he go to Germany? I honestly believe that Joes handlers was unaware of his true greatness, so they kept protecting him by keeping him home in Britain. And why didnt Joe fight Nunn or Frankie Liles? I could understand why Joe chose not to fight in Germany because there was an overwhelming chance he would be robbed like the other fighters that fought Ottke. Nobody could beat Ottke in Germany. Not even Tye Fields.

I'm not entirely sure about figures etc, but I know an offer was made to Ottke to come to the UK and fight Joe. Naturally, he refused, and (I think, but don't quote me on this) made an offer to Joe to go there. Let's all be realistic here, you are an undefeated world champion, would you fight Ottke in Germany? Kessler went to Cardiff. Calzaghe refused to go to Copenhagen. If Joe was so sure of winning over Ottke, why didnt he go to Germany? I honestly believe that Joes handlers was unaware of his true greatness, so they kept protecting him by keeping him home in Britain. And why didnt Joe fight Nunn or Frankie Liles?

Ottke? I'm curious. Can anybody give a truthful version of any Ottke vs. Calzaghe negotiations? A win over Ottke (dont laugh) would have done a lot for Calzaghe. I'm not entirely sure about figures etc, but I know an offer was made to Ottke to come to the UK and fight Joe. Naturally, he refused, and (I think, but don't quote me on this) made an offer to Joe to go there. Let's all be realistic here, you are an undefeated world champion, would you fight Ottke in Germany?

Ottke? I'm curious. Can anybody give a truthful version of any Ottke vs. Calzaghe negotiations? A win over Ottke (dont laugh) would have done a lot for Calzaghe. I can't say for sure, but the word that was always reported in the UK was that Ottke flat out refused to consider fighting Joe. Who knows though?

This is why you fail. Get off his knob. I like how you posted that he was TURNED down by johnson then immediately post about how he basically walked away from the Johnson fight cause of his injuries. Could you pretend to be more objective when making these? And this question has been asked about a dozen times already. Another offer was made to Johnson, who at that point had decided he wanted nothing to do with Calzaghe because he had pulled out of fights in the past. He made an offer, and was turned down. If it has been asked a dozen times already, why does nobody here say "Calzaghe should have fought........" rather than "He's fought nothing but a string of bums" I make a serious thread, prompting a serious discussion about why his resume gets so much shit on these boards, and instead I have to put up with a teenage slut on the rag taking her menstrual frustrations out on the world.

*cough*cough*cough*toney, james*cough*cough* They never could have fought in reality. I think Toney was a cruiserweight by the time Calzaghe won his first title, and he sure wasn't coing back! If Toney had stuck around at LHW then maybe, but he didn't.

I'm not sure of the exact offer, but Roy himself said there was no need for him to take a dangerous fight against an unknown opponent because nobody will care. I'm not saying Roy ducked Joe, but he admitted himself he didn't want to take a dangerous fight against an unknown. Joe was too big a risk with too little reward. I'm being deadly serious with this thread too, I would genuinely like to know who Joe could have fought for his resume to be as good as most people think it has to be for you to be a great fighter. Apart from Ottke, who was also appraoched and wanted NOTHING to do with it, I struggle to think of any big name guys he didn't fight. Ottke? I'm curious. Can anybody give a truthful version of any Ottke vs. Calzaghe negotiations? A win over Ottke (dont laugh) would have done a lot for Calzaghe.

Nobody? Surely somebody has an idea?

Look you're not going to get a straight answer to this either way. Cal fans will back him up and Cal detractors will tear him down. The thing that has saved Calzaghe in my book is that 3 of his last 4 fights were against the best opponents he could have faced. I can see what you're saying, but notice how the detractors haven't started turning this into another "Calzaghe's career is a joke" thread. I think it's because, rather than just stating that he built his career on bums, they have to name people who, at the time, were better. I think this thread has served it's purpose in all honesty.

Everybody here who says Calzaghe's resume is shit, do me this one thing and try and answer this question. At the time, who else could he have fought? What other "big names" were there who he hadn't already approached and been turned down by? Just so we don't get confused, he approached, and was turned down by, RJJ, Hopkins and Johnson. (Actually, he agreed to fight Johnson at LHW a few times, but this was when he was suffering terribly from hand injuries and the fights had to be postponed, in the end I think Johnson's people had just had enough, and TBH I don't blame them) So people, what are the big names that Calzaghe could have fought for his resume to live up to your stellar standards? Look you're not going to get a straight answer to this either way. Cal fans will back him up and Cal detractors will tear him down. The thing that has saved Calzaghe in my book is that 3 of his last 4 fights were against the best opponents he could have faced.

OK. You seem like you want to have a serious discussion so I'll take the bait. I'm kinda new so maybe I don't know better. But what did Calzaghe offer Jones and when did he turn it down? I'm not sure of the exact offer, but Roy himself said there was no need for him to take a dangerous fight against an unknown opponent because nobody will care. I'm not saying Roy ducked Joe, but he admitted himself he didn't want to take a dangerous fight against an unknown. Joe was too big a risk with too little reward. I'm being deadly serious with this thread too, I would genuinely like to know who Joe could have fought for his resume to be as good as most people think it has to be for you to be a great fighter. Apart from Ottke, who was also appraoched and wanted NOTHING to do with it, I struggle to think of any big name guys he didn't fight.