Does anyone here respect LINEAL championships?

well belts makes fighters. they fight for some saction intell they are a brand name in boxing. without the belt they wont have the big fights. for example Lockett and Thompson have a chance to prove the world what they are made of. they fought many contenders and elimination to get the belt. but after the fighter gets the belt he other belts too so it a long proccess

I too would prefer to see cotto/floyd sooner than later, but cotto needs to unify to generate the kind of interest that will get floyd into the ring with him. Unify which belts?

My opinion is this... Sometimes being the lineal champion makes you the man... and sometimes being just a "alphabet title holder" makes you the man... and sometimes having NO titles in the division makes you the man. For example... (not to turn it into a mayweather thread but to me it's a good example)... should miguel cotto keep beating the top welterweights (he already has wins over judah, mosley, quintana...at 140...etc.) like margarito and even williams then he's beaten i think ALL the top welterweights in the division even though mayweather wont fight him... so even though MAYWEATHER is the LINEAL champion cotto (in my book should he beat all the top weltweights) would be the real champion in my opinion and probably the opinion of many other's... So in a situation like that you dont have to be the lineal champion to be the top dog in the division. Now if cotto beat all the top welterweights but THEN lost to floyd then i wouldnt be able to say he's the man at 147...floyd would be...with cotto a REAL close second and everyone else would be a VERY distant 3rd. so it matters on the situation and the circumstances to be honest.

dude, I don't think you know what Linear means. this whole topic is about how the linear champion doesn't lose his title for being stripped of belts. the linear champion is the man. Corrales beat Casamayor, Freitas, and then Castillo to be the man, then Casamayor beat him in 2006. Casamayor is the linear champion, Campbell just holds the belts. Yeah I know that. The part where I put legitimacy at is how the title reign went, not how they earned the belts (Pavlik is an exception since he doesn't have a title defense). Casamayor's reign as champion is questionable as he got a gift decision over Jose Armando Santa Cruz. I do think though I may have hastily used the term not legitimate though as I'm still a little bitter of that decision. Let's just see how he does in his next couple fights to see if his reign is legitimate or not.

Those were some good points. The only thing is i feel Mayweather should fight the winner of margo/cotto period, or don't fight at all. It would be an injustice to the WW division if he doesn't do that. Zab had all those belts already, so cotto doesn't need to collect all of them again... http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m2/2453313613 I too would prefer to see cotto/floyd sooner than later, but cotto needs to unify to generate the kind of interest that will get floyd into the ring with him.

Let's take a look at the linear champions right now: (I consider the linear champ the man who beat the guy who first unified 3/4 of the belts) HW: Vacant (but Wlad just needs to fight the WBC or the WBA champ) CW: David Haye (legitimate) LHW: Zsolt Erdei (not-legitimate; title-defenses are a joke, Calzaghe is #1 in the division so I consider him the man to beat) SMW: Joe Calzaghe (legitimate; lineage starts again if somebody managed to unify) MW: Kelly Pavlik (beat Taylor who had ALL 4 BELTS before being stripped of two; so it's legitimate) 154: Vacant WW: Floyd Mayweather Jr. (Needs to fight the winner of Cotto-Margarito unless the result turns out to be a miraculous draw; even then he'd still need to fight one of them; awaits to see if the DLH fight is at WW or 150, then we can make a case if his WW reign is legitimate or not) 140: Ricky Hatton (legitimate; despite not having an alphabet belt, the division isn't that great and the belts are broken up) LW: Joel Casamayor (not legitimate); all of his belts were vacated and 3/4 of them are held by Nate Campbell so they need to fight130: Vacant (Nobody unifies) FW: See 130 (last linear champ was Pacquiao after he beat Barrera who beat Hamed who beat the other titleholders (champs vacated to fight him) And that's as far as I go. I don't really know much about the weight-classes lower than FW. dude, I don't think you know what Linear means. this whole topic is about how the linear champion doesn't lose his title for being stripped of belts. the linear champion is the man. Corrales beat Casamayor, Freitas, and then Castillo to be the man, then Casamayor beat him in 2006. Casamayor is the linear champion, Campbell just holds the belts.

Let's take a look at the linear champions right now: (I consider the linear champ the man who beat the guy who first unified 3/4 of the belts) HW: Vacant (but Wlad just needs to fight the WBC or the WBA champ) CW: David Haye (legitimate) LHW: Zsolt Erdei (not-legitimate; title-defenses are a joke, Calzaghe is #1 in the division so I consider him the man to beat) SMW: Joe Calzaghe (legitimate; lineage starts again if somebody managed to unify) MW: Kelly Pavlik (beat Taylor who had ALL 4 BELTS before being stripped of two; so it's legitimate) 154: Vacant WW: Floyd Mayweather Jr. (Needs to fight the winner of Cotto-Margarito unless the result turns out to be a miraculous draw; even then he'd still need to fight one of them; awaits to see if the DLH fight is at WW or 150, then we can make a case if his WW reign is legitimate or not) 140: Ricky Hatton (legitimate; despite not having an alphabet belt, the division isn't that great and the belts are broken up) LW: Joel Casamayor (not legitimate); all of his belts were vacated and 3/4 of them are held by Nate Campbell so they need to fight 130: Vacant (Nobody unifies) FW: See 130 (last linear champ was Pacquiao after he beat Barrera who beat Hamed who beat the other titleholders (champs vacated to fight him) And that's as far as I go. I don't really know much about the weight-classes lower than FW.

the lineal championship should carry more weight in a division whose championship is divided among several fighters, but if someone were to unify the division then that would mean whoever the lineal champ is should fight the unified champ to determine who is the undisputed champ (meaning no one else has a legitmate claim to the championship). if the lineal and unified champ don't fight, to determine who is undisputed you'll have to go to who has the better quality of work at that division. for instance. lineal champ casamayor should fight unfied champ campbell to determine who is the undisputed champ. I consider Floyd the lineal and undisputed champ (because all those belts out there actually belong to floyd, baldomir just didn't pay all the sanctioning fees) but if cotto beat margarito (who holds the ibf belt that is not on the line in their fight) and fights pwilliams if he beats quintana for the wbo belt or quintana defeats pwilliams again, imho floyd will lose his undisputed status and floyd and cotto need to fight. if they don't fight and cotto ends up with a better body of work at welterweight, then I'd say Cotto is the undisputed unified champ and floyd is only the lineal champ. IMHO this is where the division needs to go and must go in order for Floyd and Cotto to fight, because then Cotto will be able to generated the type of hype needed to make Floyd/Cotto into a major mega event. Floyd needs to be careful though because if such a scenario does happen, IMHO Cotto would demand more money and deservedly so, but whoever is the bigger draw and the more marketable fighter will probably get the lion's share. Those were some good points. The only thing is i feel Mayweather should fight the winner of margo/cotto period, or don't fight at all. It would be an injustice to the WW division if he doesn't do that. Zab had all those belts already, so cotto doesn't need to collect all of them again... http://re3.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m2/2453313613

i dont remember Gatti or Baldomir having Renee Zelwelger as their wife. good point

But getting to the root of that, Foreman was a total joke of a champion. He defended against unranked Axel Schulz, won a gift decision, then refused to give Schulz a rematch that he was ordered to. Foreman's second title reign was an embarrassment to boxing. that's true after he won it... he didn't do crap with it, but he did win it legitimately. Luckily we had Lewis clean up the mess, now we need someone to clean up the current hw mess

Okay Cinderella Man fan. If he's a great fighter then so is Arturo Gatti and Carlos Baldomir. LOL. i dont remember Gatti or Baldomir having Renee Zelwelger as their wife.

With all these sanctioning bodies claiming world champions, I think it's more important than ever to recognize lineal championships. Sanctioning bodies have an ulterior motive: money. You don't pay their fees they strip you. It's a business. It's all about making money. How can we consider a fighter a champion when the belt he's wearing was stripped from another fighter for not paying his sanctioning fees? Lineal Championships carry more weight than any other alphabet title out there. Many like to point out the fact that mayweather's WW championship is tainted because he won it from Baldomir. Why should it be? Baldomir beat the man who beat the man, his title reign is more legitmate than any of these alphabet titlist reigns. Forrest beat shane, mayorga beat forrest, spinks beat mayorga, judah beat spinks, bladomir beat judah. That's a legitmate title reign. The fact that he has not defended it against a legitimate ww is a different arguement. Let's not make this another mayweather thread. I don't hear anyone critizing Joe Louis' reign as heavyweight champ because he beat James Braddock "Cinderalla Man". James Braddock was a BUM before he beat Max Baer. Be that as it may, he deserves credit for beating the MAN and he's was the lineal champ period. Titlist get credit from me for being just that... titlist. Some get credit for being great fighters but they get no credit in my book for being world champions because they aren't. the lineal championship should carry more weight in a division whose championship is divided among several fighters, but if someone were to unify the division then that would mean whoever the lineal champ is should fight the unified champ to determine who is the undisputed champ (meaning no one else has a legitmate claim to the championship). if the lineal and unified champ don't fight, to determine who is undisputed you'll have to go to who has the better quality of work at that division. for instance. lineal champ casamayor should fight unfied champ campbell to determine who is the undisputed champ. I consider Floyd the lineal and undisputed champ (because all those belts out there actually belong to floyd, baldomir just didn't pay all the sanctioning fees) but if cotto beat margarito (who holds the ibf belt that is not on the line in their fight) and fights pwilliams if he beats quintana for the wbo belt or quintana defeats pwilliams again, imho floyd will lose his undisputed status and floyd and cotto need to fight. if they don't fight and cotto ends up with a better body of work at welterweight, then I'd say Cotto is the undisputed unified champ and floyd is only the lineal champ. IMHO this is where the division needs to go and must go in order for Floyd and Cotto to fight, because then Cotto will be able to generated the type of hype needed to make Floyd/Cotto into a major mega event. Floyd needs to be careful though because if such a scenario does happen, IMHO Cotto would demand more money and deservedly so, but whoever is the bigger draw and the more marketable fighter will probably get the lion's share.

It was definitely a BS decision but that goes hand in hand with boxing But getting to the root of that, Foreman was a total joke of a champion. He defended against unranked Axel Schulz, won a gift decision, then refused to give Schulz a rematch that he was ordered to. Foreman's second title reign was an embarrassment to boxing.

Boxing is a sport first and foremost, and like all sports it has to have a goal for its partcipants. The problem is that in a world of multiple belts it is extremely unclear which goal is worth aiming for and which have any value. Lineal championships are probably the best yardstick we have to measure a fighter by because if we ignored them we would be reduced to making subjective statements like "fighter X is better than fighter Y because his resume is stronger and his style is more impressive" which is all very well, but ultimately lacking in objective proof. When the man has beaten the man he takes possession of a marker which says "I am the best, beat me if you can" which gives his opponents a reason to fight him and the fans a context to place the fight in. Without this, boxing matches would cease to be meaningful competitive sport at all and become more like entertainment spectacles served up for the fans to make their own judgements about, which is not how it should be. If we take this view then the question of which lineal titles we should pay attention to becomes very important. Not every belt holder in a division can really be its champ. At some stage we have to make the judgement on which title is the most legitimate. In boxing at the moment I'd say this has to be the Ring titles, which are the most strictly linear of all, except in the unavoidable instances where a champ retires or permanently leaves his weight class. Since this is inevitable we may as well accept it and respect the outcome of whatever eliminator is arranged, which is the only point at which opinion enters this system. Even lineal championships are not perfect but they are certainly better than the "fighter X is the best because..." system, which in the end will leave us with as many "champs" as there are boxers, which would be even worse than the multi-belt scenario we have now. good post would give green k but it wouldn't allow

to tell you the truth, i put more stock in the actual fighter itself than the belts. belts to me are becoming more meaningless by the year. how can we actually put so much stock in belts that are sanctioned by organizations that we KNOW are corrupt? it would be like the mexican government being the sponsor of "The Moral and Ethical Award". the reason this shit goes on is because we don't do anything about it.

It was definitely a BS decision but that goes hand in hand with boxing If we corrected most BS decisions, then the linear HW title would end up in Axel Schulz hands, go on to Michael Moorer, and then Holyfield, and then Lewis.

well, the welterweight title was shattered when Trinidad moved up to 154, leaving De La Hoya (the guy who most felt BEAT Trinidad) with some title or other. I mean most people considered Oscar the #1 guy in the division, the last to hold the belt, etc, but I see your point. still, Spinks actually unified all of the belts so he was undisputed for sure. I see.. I still feel the title went to shit with Vernon's hand problems.. I'm a fan of Mayorga but I also recognize he has never been the best. If the Cotto Mayweather fight materializes and Mayweather wins.. there will be no problems coming from me about his status because he will have defended it against a true champion and in my opinion rightfully shown who the best is.

Lineal titles is a good concept, but because of boxing politics being a reality they have become obsolete. When I was told that Shannon Briggs was the lineal champion for getting a dubious decision over Foreman I knew that it meant nothing anymore. It was definitely a BS decision but that goes hand in hand with boxing

Lineal titles is a good concept, but because of boxing politics being a reality they have become obsolete. When I was told that Shannon Briggs was the lineal champion for getting a dubious decision over Foreman I knew that it meant nothing anymore. I mean bad decisions are part of boxing. Foreman could have had a rematch if he wanted it, but he was ready to give up being champion. Luckily Lewis smashed Briggs shortly thereafter and, in case there was doubt and believe me there was, he went out and unified the belts. The true champion comes through in most divisions, especially when there is no decidedly top dog.

Yes, I respect linear championships. Although in some cases they can be a bit ridiculous, such as Zsolt Erdei as the LHW champion or Shannon Briggs as the 1-time HW champion but eventually it will find a way to the best fighter in the division. yes it does get ridiculous, but we have to take the good and the bad when those situations arise.