what if: James Toney vs. Joe Calzaghe @ 168 (Prime for prime)

He had several losses along the way too, Joe's never lost a fight. Calzaghe never resorted to cheating with steroids. Not a bad resume, but not great either. James Toney is a one of many overrated American fighters. I seriously doubt Calzaghe could run the same 'gauntlet' that Toney did and remain undefeated. James Toney in a span of 3 years fought Sosa, Nunn, R. Johnson, McCallum twice, Barkley, Thornton, Littles, Williams and a prime Roy Jones. He was already 44-0 when he lost to Jones. Compare that to Calzaghe's resume which includes Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Brewer, Mitchell, Lacy, Bika, Kessler and Hopkins over the span of 11 years. Calzaghe is now 45-0. James Toney has 70 wins, 6 losses, one bad loss to Roy Jones at the end of his undefeated run, two losses to Griffin, first one very close, the second one highly controversial, close majority decision loss to journeyman Thadzi which made Toney retire for a short time, two losses to Sam Peter, the first one could've easily gone Toney's way. Calzaghe deserves credit for being consistent for over a decade and Toney deserves credit for fighting everyone there was to fight. This is, after all, a man who was willing to move up from CW to fight Lennox Lewis!

lol and three years after benn destroyed bark too. Why people like this Toney guy is beyond me. He was outpointed by Montell Griffin for gods sake. James Toney had wins over Michael Nunn (undefeated p4p number 3 at the time, MW & SMW champ), Reggie Johnson (future MW & LHW champ), Mike McCallum (former LMW, current MW & future LHW champ), Iran Barkley (SMW & LHW champ at the time), Tim Littles (undefeated), Charles Williams (former LHW champ), Vassiliy Jirov (undefeated CW champ) and he also managed to become a top 10 heavyweight at the end of his career with a wide decision win over HW champion Ruiz tainted by steroid-use, a draw with HW champion Hasim Rahman and a split decision loss against future HW champion Sam Peter. You won't see the kind of class as shown in this fight between McCallum and James Toney very often. Toney's fight against Montell Griffin.

kindly name a few boxers that were successful from 160lbs all the way up to heavyweight. you have to have some pretty damn good skills to be able to do that. I'm not arguing with you, its pretty incredible to go from MW to HW. As I said, I like Toney, he does have good skills, just not as good as some people make out. goodness, then when is his prime? The Reid fight? thats when he was younger and hit harder. maybe he had an off night, but even in his best performances he was open to a counter right hand. even Eubank hurt him with it, and while that was only one moment, Toney was better than Eubank ever was, and much better than the past prime Eubank. The right hand has always been able to land on Calzaghe throughout his career. and Toney was exceptionally good at throwing that punch. Not sure the post you quoted was mine, but anyway, yes, Calzaghe can at times be open to a right, but never for very long in a single fight. He always switches it up and makes it more difficult for his opposition to land. Toney would catch him early on I'm sure but if it affected Calzaghe he'd find a way to neutralise it. For a fighter who is so defensively 'open' Calzaghe has been hit relatively little in his career. I don't really know when Joe's prime was, his best performances have been Lacy and Kessler, but unquestionably he was physically better back in the Reid and Calzaghe days. Not sure that Toney is 'much better' than Eubank, both guys are pretty gifted, and Eubank gets underrated on here. I'd say that Eubank, in beating Benn and Watson actually beat the better opposition at SMW, but all in all Toney had the better career. Like I said, I like both Toney and Calzaghe, both great fighters.

I can see why they like him, he put in a great performance against Michael Nunn to win the title, basically waiting all fight for Nunn to gas, getting behind on the cards and the brutally KOing him at the end. Likewise in his fight with Littles he got an awful cut which would have stopped the fight and he basically had a round to get the KO. He did. He also was extraordinarily active as a fighter, fighting once every two months as champ. However, his greatest wins are perhaps not all they are made out to be, usually listed as Nunn, Barkley and Jirov and he's lost to plenty of fighters too. I like him as a boxer, his naked aggression and old school style could be great to watch, but he is far from being the technical genius and unbeatable fighter he is often made out to be. kindly name a few boxers that were successful from 160lbs all the way up to heavyweight. you have to have some pretty damn good skills to be able to do that. Joe Calzaghe wasn't in his prime against Hopkins. He isn't over the hill, but no way is he in his prime anymore. As for your power question, try searching out some videos of Calzaghe before he fucked his hands up. He landed absolute bombs, which seems odd considering he doesn't punch that hard anymore. I'm really not sure when Calzaghe's prime even was. Arguably it was against Lacy, but his hands were fucked at that stage. It might be a possibility that Joe fought in his prime against bums. Did he have his ring experience or defence in the days when he could punch hard though? I'm not sure who I'd back prime for prime, purely because I'm not sure which Calzaghe would be fighting. One thing is for damn sure though, the Calzaghe who beat Lacy with the hands he had when he was younger punishes Toney badly. If that Calzaghe were possible, he punishes virtually anyone. goodness, then when is his prime? The Reid fight? thats when he was younger and hit harder. maybe he had an off night, but even in his best performances he was open to a counter right hand. even Eubank hurt him with it, and while that was only one moment, Toney was better than Eubank ever was, and much better than the past prime Eubank. The right hand has always been able to land on Calzaghe throughout his career. and Toney was exceptionally good at throwing that punch.

lol and three years after benn destroyed bark too. Why people like this Toney guy is beyond me. He was outpointed by Montell Griffin for gods sake. I can see why they like him, he put in a great performance against Michael Nunn to win the title, basically waiting all fight for Nunn to gas, getting behind on the cards and the brutally KOing him at the end. Likewise in his fight with Littles he got an awful cut which would have stopped the fight and he basically had a round to get the KO. He did. He also was extraordinarily active as a fighter, fighting once every two months as champ. However, his greatest wins are perhaps not all they are made out to be, usually listed as Nunn, Barkley and Jirov and he's lost to plenty of fighters too. I like him as a boxer, his naked aggression and old school style could be great to watch, but he is far from being the technical genius and unbeatable fighter he is often made out to be.

lol and three years after benn destroyed bark too. Why people like this Toney guy is beyond me. He was outpointed by Montell Griffin for gods sake.

Can someone tell me what James Toney's best win was? Iran Barkley!

Can someone tell me what James Toney's best win was?

Toney nuthuggers are fuckin dumb. Barkley was more outclassed vs Henry Maske than Toney.

These two guys were fighting completely different kinds of opposition during their respective primes...While James Toney was fighting the best guys there were in and around his weight class during his prime, Calzaghe was beating up on ESPN 2 allstars... Toney UD12

firstly the americans have only recently clapped eyes on joe, i bet theres not one on here who followed his career pre lacy.. secondly your judging him on the hopkins fight which was a bad performance and the whole argument that hopkins won is purely based on the knockdown which is laughable,kessler was a master class in boxing,but his power has gone that i dont dispute ... thirdly u know shit about joes prime regardless of opponents he was a class apart FROM ANYONE and would have been a handfull for any of the 160ish pounders in history.. fourthly he would have boxed fat ass toneys head off prime for prime.

Joe Calzaghe wasn't in his prime against Hopkins. He isn't over the hill, but no way is he in his prime anymore. As for your power question, try searching out some videos of Calzaghe before he fucked his hands up. He landed absolute bombs, which seems odd considering he doesn't punch that hard anymore. I'm really not sure when Calzaghe's prime even was. Arguably it was against Lacy, but his hands were fucked at that stage. It might be a possibility that Joe fought in his prime against bums. Did he have his ring experience or defence in the days when he could punch hard though? I'm not sure who I'd back prime for prime, purely because I'm not sure which Calzaghe would be fighting. One thing is for damn sure though, the Calzaghe who beat Lacy with the hands he had when he was younger punishes Toney badly. If that Calzaghe were possible, he punishes virtually anyone. Teriffic post.

One question. If calzaghe could hardly land on a 43 year old hopkins. How on earth would he land on Prime James Toney? PS. I hope no one tries to tell me Calzaghe had more power than Toney at 168 pounds. :lol1: Joe Calzaghe wasn't in his prime against Hopkins. He isn't over the hill, but no way is he in his prime anymore. As for your power question, try searching out some videos of Calzaghe before he fucked his hands up. He landed absolute bombs, which seems odd considering he doesn't punch that hard anymore. I'm really not sure when Calzaghe's prime even was. Arguably it was against Lacy, but his hands were fucked at that stage. It might be a possibility that Joe fought in his prime against bums. Did he have his ring experience or defence in the days when he could punch hard though? I'm not sure who I'd back prime for prime, purely because I'm not sure which Calzaghe would be fighting. One thing is for damn sure though, the Calzaghe who beat Lacy with the hands he had when he was younger punishes Toney badly. If that Calzaghe were possible, he punishes virtually anyone.

Good points, even though i don't agree. :) Likewise. Take it easy:)

I think he meant the Nunn vs Barkley fight. That was a pitiful display but so was Benn vs Barkley. The referee let Benn hit Barkley about 3 times on the floor with rabbit punches, then he stops the fight because of the 3 knockdown rule although Barkley was still ready to fight. That fight along with Pac vs Marquez I are the best reasons why the 3 knockdown rule should not be used. Anyway Barkley was a tough guy and I never saw him truly KO'd atleast in his prime. Here's the 1 round war, too bad it was cut short. Yeah i agree. Benn had a few fights where there were biased referee's. See Benn vs Mcclellan( If you haven't already). The ref would get on Gerald's case when he would do the slightest things, but completely ignored it when Benn would hit behind the head or after the break.

eubank was ruined by the time calzaghe fought him so was mitchell blah blah blah mitchell has absolutely no chin and is not a top fighter blah blah blah discredit wars. Eubank was 31 and had 2 pretty impressive fights at CW after that. It's amazing that nobody managed to stop Mitchell before then, hey?

In some ways I agree but I think in the Woodhall and Sheika (to some extent) fights he showed a best compromise between his earlier and what was to become his later styles. Couldn't agree more. When did I say you couldn't say that? I was criticising your example of the Nunn fight as an exceptional Toney performance - it wasn't. Calzaghe has never been countered to death over the course of a fight. He might be susceptible to it early but he's always found a way to adapt. Toney really doesn't bring a whole lot of variation and looks lost when his usual game doesn't work, which is pretty much every time he doesn't have a speed advantage over the other guy. Nobody fight's exactly like Toney but Calzaghe's seen everything that Toney has to offer through a combination of opponents. He really isn't very hard to figure out and he does get hit plenty, probably more than Hopkins. Calzaghe looked poor against Hopkins, no doubt. Most people would faced with that kind of negativity. A prime Hopkins wouldn't have fought like that and would've played into Cal's strengths more. That wasn't a prime JC in there either, BTW. Cazaghe did pretty well fighting injured against counterpuncher Reid and against Eubank, who's as akward as they come, in his first step up in class. I was talking about Nunn v Barkley Good points, even though i don't agree. :)

Calzaghe in my opinion is better off fighting the way he fights. Actually, Lacy would have actually had his chances against early Calzaghe. Calzaghe is now more slick, better defensively, has better boxing skills and is buiser than he was when he was in his prime. Prime Calzaghe was carried away with punching and didn't have the skills that he has now. He was too brave and it would have costed him if he was fighting a puncher like Lacy and Kessler. The style that he has now is better for him, despite the lack of pop in his punches.. In some ways I agree but I think in the Woodhall and Sheika (to some extent) fights he showed a best compromise between his earlier and what was to become his later styles. Where Nunn went wrong was that he didn't conserve his energy in the early stages of the fight. He would box, move and throw volume punches for the entire time, which wore him out and why he didn't have anything left in the tank late. Couldn't agree more. I can't say that Toney wasn't at his best against Tiberi ,Thazi and Griffin but you can say that he wasn't at his best against Reid and Hopkins? I have yet to hear a reasonable excuse for Calzaghe in either fights. I still believe that he has a weakness against technical boxers and counter punchers. Counters are what systematically broke Jirov down over the course of the fight becuase he would like Calzaghe, get squared up, abandon his defense and throw volume punches. Hopkins and Reid both were able to take advantage of this by timing him with counters on the way in and using rought tactics. Toney is a throw back to the old fighters becuase his inside game is superior to anyone of the 90's and he can take a hell of a shot. Thats where Calzaghe would have problems. He does not have anything to get Toney's respect and Toney have everything in his arsenal to get Calzaghe's. When did I say you couldn't say that? I was criticising your example of the Nunn fight as an exceptional Toney performance - it wasn't. Calzaghe has never been countered to death over the course of a fight. He might be susceptible to it early but he's always found a way to adapt. Toney really doesn't bring a whole lot of variation and looks lost when his usual game doesn't work, which is pretty much every time he doesn't have a speed advantage over the other guy. Calzaghe has not faced anyone like James Toney and honestly, i can't say the same things about Toney. He has fought every name fighter and caught a major belt from middleweight clear up to heavyweight. Think about it, who has Calzaghe beaten that is similar to Toney or as good technically? Lacy? A one dimensional banger that was overrated by the public and many boxing observers. A great impressive win over an unbeaten favorite, but no. Kessler? A straight up style European fighter that is not elusive and one dimensional. He just goes back and fourth and fights off of what his opponents does. Hopkins even at that stage in his career made Calzaghe look average. Why? because he used his tools and studdied Calzaghe. He knew that he has the flaws that i mentioned. Thats why i would favor a young Hopkins(or even the Hopkins that fought Taylor over Calzaghe. Robin Reid was a good fighter, but never elite. Toney is on an entire different level than these fighters. Calzaghe matching well against any top notch elusive counter puncher/technical boxer is something that i don't see happening becuase again, he has those flaws. Nobody fight's exactly like Toney but Calzaghe's seen everything that Toney has to offer through a combination of opponents. He really isn't very hard to figure out and he does get hit plenty, probably more than Hopkins. Calzaghe looked poor against Hopkins, no doubt. Most people would faced with that kind of negativity. A prime Hopkins wouldn't have fought like that and would've played into Cal's strengths more. That wasn't a prime JC in there either, BTW. Cazaghe did pretty well fighting injured against counterpuncher Reid and against Eubank, who's as akward as they come, in his first step up in class. Toney stopped Barkely in the 10th round and won the IBF super middleweight championship. Also, the Benn/Barkely fight occured well before the Barkely/Toney fight. I was talking about Nunn v Barkley

Everyone who's followed his career must be lying then. You don't knock Eubank clean accross the ring or have Mitchell stumbling like a drunk if you have no power. Curry was ruined by the time Nunn got to him BTW, which pretty much just leaves Tate and Kalambay as his only top level stoppages by my memory, neither at 168lb. eubank was ruined by the time calzaghe fought him so was mitchell blah blah blah mitchell has absolutely no chin and is not a top fighter blah blah blah discredit wars.

Toney stopped Barkely in the 10th round and won the IBF super middleweight championship. Also, the Benn/Barkely fight occured well before the Barkely/Toney fight. I think he meant the Nunn vs Barkley fight. That was a pitiful display but so was Benn vs Barkley. The referee let Benn hit Barkley about 3 times on the floor with rabbit punches, then he stops the fight because of the 3 knockdown rule although Barkley was still ready to fight. That fight along with Pac vs Marquez I are the best reasons why the 3 knockdown rule should not be used. Anyway Barkley was a tough guy and I never saw him truly KO'd atleast in his prime. Here's the 1 round war, too bad it was cut short.