Do You Still Respect The Word Of Manny Steward?

Ultimately, it's the fighter who wins or loses a fight. Steward is a great trainer and you have only to look at his track record to know that. The guy is great at what he does and I'm sure he did everything he could to help JT, but in the end Taylor was meant to lose to Pavlik that night.

Sheesh.. This fight was ALL Manny Steward and look at the outcome?! It turns out Steward COULD NOT have been more wrong. He just cashed in Jermain Taylor's championship for him. :skull: One of the alltime blunders? We shall see.. Yes, I still respect Steward a lot. As an analyst in HBO its impressive how he analizes and is aware of each fighters weaknesses and strong points. One of the most impressive comments made by an HBO analyst came from Steward. Addison, you will know what I am talking about. In the Cotto/Judah fight, in the very first round, he said that Cotto was lounging in with his punches and he was open for a counter from Judah. Not even 10 seconds passed and Judah connected with an uppercut. Ofcourse; as a trainer, he talks up his fighter. Maybe to give him confidence, I am not sure. As an analyst he is great, as a trainer he is obviously biased.

I love manny steward as an announcer but Addison is right. Steward's in the corner telling Taylor to basically try to outbox Pavlik to a decision, all the while unawares of the mounting damage Pavlik was putting on taylor even while losing rounds. That is why a jab stunned taylor in the 7th. Steward, like the judges and most fans(including myself) once again underrated the effectiveness and power of Pavlik because it looked during most of the fight that this was a lanky weakling vs a disciplined speedster. I mean, Taylors shots SOUNDED and LOOKED WAY more powerful than Pavlik's. Who could have known?

Can't argue with that. I think JT and Manny thoroughly underestimated the effectiveness of Pavlik's jab. The right side of JT's face after the fight speaks volumes about about the effectiveness of that jab. When you are worrying about that jab, you are more prone to get popped with that right. it was not that pavliks jab was good it was jermains fault for having no basic fundamentals in defense.........if you step back and he is still hitting you with the jab, circle to the fucking left......

Agreed...as to your last paragraph. I mean it was stupid to play Pavlik's game. It was just plain arrogant. The left hand thing...well it was up and down. But, the real problem I saw was Pavlik's jab. Taylor's left hand did not expose him to this. The strategy was to stand and counterpunch..ie..trade..relying on Taylor's athleticism to slip Pavlik's right and then counter it. But, Pavlik's jab forced the issue. When that started hitting home, the right hand was sure to follow with a wallop. Can't argue with that. I think JT and Manny thoroughly underestimated the effectiveness of Pavlik's jab. The right side of JT's face after the fight speaks volumes about about the effectiveness of that jab. When you are worrying about that jab, you are more prone to get popped with that right.

I don't believe that the strategy was to trade blows with Pavlik. The strategy seemed to be for JT to counterpunch. Pavlik uses the jab to set up his right hand. JT seemed to be waiting for Pavlik to throw the right, and then he'd slip and counterpunch with a combination. With Pavlik's deadly right dodged, it's much safer to attack Pavlik. It's not a bad strategy and when done correctly it was effective. But leaving your left hand at your waist really puts the odds on getting clocked much higher. He played with fire. I will however agree with you that this strategy was not the best strategy that could have been used. But, it made for a more entertaining fight - cause I think the right strategy for Taylor would be to move and jab - which would have frustrated Pavlik more and made for a less explosive fight. He might have won on the cards in that fight. Agreed...as to your last paragraph. I mean it was stupid to play Pavlik's game. It was just plain arrogant. The left hand thing...well it was up and down. But, the real problem I saw was Pavlik's jab. Taylor's left hand did not expose him to this. The strategy was to stand and counterpunch..ie..trade..relying on Taylor's athleticism to slip Pavlik's right and then counter it. But, Pavlik's jab forced the issue. When that started hitting home, the right hand was sure to follow with a wallop.

I don't believe that the strategy was to trade blows with Pavlik. The strategy seemed to be for JT to counterpunch. Pavlik uses the jab to set up his right hand. JT seemed to be waiting for Pavlik to throw the right, and then he'd slip and counterpunch with a combination. With Pavlik's deadly right dodged, it's much safer to attack Pavlik. It's not a bad strategy and when done correctly it was effective. But leaving your left hand at your waist really puts the odds on getting clocked much higher. He played with fire. I will however agree with you that this strategy was not the best strategy that could have been used. But, it made for a more entertaining fight - cause I think the right strategy for Taylor would be to move and jab - which would have frustrated Pavlik more and made for a less explosive fight. He might have won on the cards in that fight.

cool... I don't know if I agree with that. I'd say that JT was much quicker than Pavlik but really didn't make it matter enough. He focused on counterpunching and I think he was pretty effective at doing that. But just not enough, and Pavlik's stiff left jab was doing damage consistently over time. There were points in the fight where you really had to think about how Pavlik could win with such a speed difference. But when you let yourself get backed into the corner all night, that speed isn't as effective. He kept on letting Kelly get too close, instead of using his speed to keep him at bay with the jab. Yep. I'm surprised at how effective with the jab Pavlik was compared to JT. That was one of the factors for his success. But, somehow the winging punches by both guys was what I felt didn't make them look sharp enough, despite the outcome. :boxing:

Manny didn't screw up Taylor. I'll guarantee you that Manny wasn't telling JT to keep his hand down by his waist. I guarantee you that Manny was encouraging him to use his jab consistently and as usual JT didn't listen. Manny did what they wanted him to do to promote the fight. I have a hard time believing that he truly wasn't worried about Pavlik's power. If the fightplan was to counterpunch Pavlik, that actually was a good strategy. But I gotta believe that Manny wasn't telling him to let himself get backed up into a corner. In fact after the 3rd round, he started to become a little more aggressive about trying to get out of the corner when he ended up there. I gotta believe that Manny talked to him about how dangerous that was. In the end, he got jacked up in the corner with his left hand near his waist. Like that wasn't begging to happen for 4 rounds. JT just thinks he can get away with it because he's the champ.... er.. because he WAS the champ. I don't think anyone can blame Manny. Fighter has to follow his trainer's instructions. Taylor got backed onto the ropes because he fought a style of fight he could not win. This was just a product of their flawed strategy. Pavlik was too powerful to trade with. But Steward was arrogant enough to believe that Pavlik's skill in hurting opponents was overrated, and he devised a plan to expose that. Unfortunately it back-fired.

You can't blame Manny for the outcome. One thing I did notice from the short clip of the fight, is that both fighters looked pretty slow and telegraphed their punches. :boxing: I don't know if I agree with that. I'd say that JT was much quicker than Pavlik but really didn't make it matter enough. He focused on counterpunching and I think he was pretty effective at doing that. But just not enough, and Pavlik's stiff left jab was doing damage consistently over time. There were points in the fight where you really had to think about how Pavlik could win with such a speed difference. But when you let yourself get backed into the corner all night, that speed isn't as effective. He kept on letting Kelly get too close, instead of using his speed to keep him at bay with the jab.

I feel like this... You can't blame Manny for the outcome. Yes, JT could've probably prepared himself more stamina wise, but who's to say he didn't? I'm sure that's what he'll be working on for the next time. He plain and simply gassed himself out during a critical moment in the fight. He admitted that he got over anxious to finish it when Pavlik was hurt. Pavlik, to his credit, was resilient enough to withstand the onslaught, and recover quickly enough to turn the tables. One thing I did notice from the short clip of the fight, is that both fighters looked pretty slow and telegraphed their punches. :boxing:

Manny didn't screw up Taylor. I'll guarantee you that Manny wasn't telling JT to keep his hand down by his waist. I guarantee you that Manny was encouraging him to use his jab consistently and as usual JT didn't listen. Manny did what they wanted him to do to promote the fight. I have a hard time believing that he truly wasn't worried about Pavlik's power. If the fightplan was to counterpunch Pavlik, that actually was a good strategy. But I gotta believe that Manny wasn't telling him to let himself get backed up into a corner. In fact after the 3rd round, he started to become a little more aggressive about trying to get out of the corner when he ended up there. I gotta believe that Manny talked to him about how dangerous that was. In the end, he got jacked up in the corner with his left hand near his waist. Like that wasn't begging to happen for 4 rounds. JT just thinks he can get away with it because he's the champ.... er.. because he WAS the champ. I don't think anyone can blame Manny. Fighter has to follow his trainer's instructions.

I don't blame Manny for that. If Manny didn't know that Pavlik could come off the deck to win - then I guess I knew something Steward didn't know. When Pavlik was still on the canvass I was talking about what happened in the 7th. I disagree. Kelly was not better. He did what he was supposed to do. Taylor was just as good if not slightly better IMO. And Taylor did precisely what he wasn't supposed to do. Pavlik's power carried him through another rough night. That's a gift. Not a skill. I agree, Taylor was winning in my eye's And on the Scorecards. He was CLEARLY outboxing Pavlik until the 7th. Taylor got caught with a shot he didnt see. Taylor is the better fighter IMO. Pavlik is a great Champion though.

Manny said the fight would be KO by Taylor in the 3rd. Pavlik was on q street in the second, and jermain just didnt come sharp in that 90 seconds. I would say manny did pretty well on the prediction, but between kelly's will and jermain's mistake it just didnt end up that way. He also said jermain will be fighting, and he sure did. he didnt hold back at all. taylor fought a GREAT fight. kelly's was just a bit better. i wouldnt blame manny for that. I don't blame Manny for that. If Manny didn't know that Pavlik could come off the deck to win - then I guess I knew something Steward didn't know. When Pavlik was still on the canvass I was talking about what happened in the 7th. I disagree. Kelly was not better. He did what he was supposed to do. Taylor was just as good if not slightly better IMO. And Taylor did precisely what he wasn't supposed to do. Pavlik's power carried him through another rough night. That's a gift. Not a skill.

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Looking at some of these posts I'm not sure we're quite linking up on this. Manny Steward staked his reputation on this fight. He told members of the media things like; "...If you respect me, respect my prediction on this one..." Manny said the fight would be KO by Taylor in the 3rd. Pavlik was on q street in the second, and jermain just didnt come sharp in that 90 seconds. I would say manny did pretty well on the prediction, but between kelly's will and jermain's mistake it just didnt end up that way. He also said jermain will be fighting, and he sure did. he didnt hold back at all. taylor fought a GREAT fight. kelly's was just a bit better. i wouldnt blame manny for that.

You can't prepare someone for a right straight that makes your brain smack into your skull, I think he should have had jermain block the jab with his hand and focus on the right hand of Pavlik, that would have helped a hell of alot. Well, evidently that WAS one of the tactics. Clearly, from the dialogue in the corner, they prepared for the right hand. The problem was that Emmanuel had Taylor in way too close, probably to eliminate Pavlik's reach advantage. Steward was thinking that Taylor could athletically slip Pavlik's "slow" punches, and take the offensive off the counterpunch. The problem was that they completely underestimated the power and quickness of Pavlik's JAB. Steward practically admitted it after the fight when he said they underestimated Pavlik's hand speed. That's the key to understanding his miscalculation. Steward comes off a failure on this fight. Not because his boy lost the fight, but because he was arrogant enough to believe his own bullshit.

You can't prepare someone for a right straight that makes your brain smack into your skull, I think he should have had jermain block the jab with his hand and focus on the right hand of Pavlik, that would have helped a hell of alot.

How can u say all this when you don't know what went on during training camp. But, regarding Steward's stewardship, I think he had doubts from the very first. The headgames, the strategy, even the way he looked walking into the arena, it all smelled of worry. He tried to take a piece of clay and mold it into the Mona Lisa. It was impossible. He should have stuck with Taylor's natural attributes, ie..boxing skills and athleticism, and avoided the toe to toe stuff. Instead, he tried to create a slugger out of a boxer and that is suicide. Caveat: I am assuming Taylor followed Steward's instructions. It would have been apparent during the fight in the corner if he wasn't following the gameplan. Therefore, I believe Taylor was indeed following a very flawed gameplan.