Bert Sugar's Top 100 Fighters Of All Time...

Bias to old school fighters. By the way, where is Mike McCallum, James Toney and Lennox Lewis? Not included, nor should they be. Maybe McCallum, certainly not the other two.

Boxing's history is long enough and deep enough to be regarded as a field of study and an area of expertise. Sugar was an Historian. Not a fighter, not a sports writer or journalist, not a promoter or announcer or a blogger and most certainly not just merely a fan. His choices were carefully considered. An unpopular thing to say on a message board (any topic), but Stay in you depth! Many of these corrective suggestions here are cringe worthy. A few are simply...simple. Most people dearly want to be smart, handsome, brilliant. But life can seem cruel in the way that superlative competence is dolled out. Stop telling the pilot how he might better fly the aircraft, or people may die.

Its the same sport. The advent of the weirdo nutthuggers like us Pac bois, will protest if he isn't ranked #1 in every era You mouth foamers ruin everything.

This is what I mean. TOP lists have to do with skill and overall talent. Whitaker is easily one of the greatest talents of his time, easily and that includes Chavez' time. Whitaker was a better fighter than Chavez, and it showed in their fight. - - Peashooter was a protected clown fighter and it showed vs JC clearly on the decline after more fights than Peashooter could ever handle. He chose to clown the fading Mex great in front of his people instead of crafting a definitive win and he did that throughout his career. Randall was no clown and recognized opportunity when he saw it to give the Mex great his first defeat, and Peashooters just can't accept that justice. Pea like Camacho were more talent than great, and interestingly though in shared eras, they never fought. But Macho was still Macho when he bedazzled and dizzied Ramirez, even knocking him down as compared to Peashooter who pranced into left body hooks all night until he was reduced to a low blow and hanging on strategy to last 12 rounds. Thanks for the clown reminder of Peashooter.

I found this in another forum when searching for Bert Sugar's top fighters list. What do you guy think of this list? 1) Ray Robinson 2) Hank Armstrong 3) Willie Pep 4) Joe Louis 5) Harry Greb 6) Benny Leonard 7) Muhammad Ali 8) Roberto Duran 9) Jack Dempsey 10) Jack Johnson 11) Mickey Walker 12) Tony Canzoneri 13) Gene Tunney 14) Rocky Marciano 15) Joe Gans 16) Sam Langford 17) Julio Cesar Chavez 18) Jimmy Wilde 19) Stanley Ketchel 20) Barney Ross 21) Jimmy McClarnin 22) Archie Moore 23) Marcel Cerdan 24) Ezzard Charles 25) Ray Leonard 26) The Original Joe Walcott 27) Jake Lamotta 28) Eder Jofre 29) Emile Griffith 30) Terry McGivern 31) George Foreman 32) Johnny Dundee 33) Jose Napoles 34) Pascual Perez 35) Billy Conn 36) Ruben Olivares 37) Joe Frazier 38) Tommy Loughran 39) Sandy Saddler 40) Kid Chocolate 41) Abe Attell 42) Evander Holyfield 43) George Dixon 44) Maxie Rosenbloom 45) Larry Holmes 46) Ted 'Kid' Lewis 47) Marvin Hagler 48) Pernell Whitaker 49) Carlos Zarate 50) Thomas Hearns 51) Battling Nelson 52) Beau Jack 53) Ricardo Lopez 54) John L Sullivan 55) Carlos Monzon 56) Alexis Arguello 57) Carmen Basilio 58) Pete Herman 59) Charley Burley 60) Ike Williams 61) Kid Gavilan 62) Jack Britton 63) Dick Tiger 64) Pancho Villa 65) Panama Al Brown 66) Bob Fitzsimmons 67) Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 68) Tiger Flowers 69) James J Corbett 70) Tony Zale 71) Tommy Ryan 72) Georges Carpentier 73) Sonny Liston 74) Kid McCoy 75) Bob Foster 76) Freddie Welsh 77) Joe Jeanette 78) Jim Driscoll 79) Jersey Joe Walcott 80) Peter Jackson 81) Ad Wolgast 82) Jack Dempsey nonpareil 83) Manuel Ortiz 84) Jim Jeffries 85) Salvador Sanchez 86) Jimmy Barry 87) Carlos Ortiz 88) Roy Jones jr. 89) Wilfredo Gomez 90) Aaron Pryor 91) Bernard Hopkins 92) Mike Gibbons 93) Jack Delaney 94) Johnny Kilbane 95) Willie Ritchie 96) Wilfred Benitez 97) Packy MacFarland 98) Rocky Graziano 99) Lew Jenkins 100) Mike Tyson Bias to old school fighters. By the way, where is Mike McCallum, James Toney and Lennox Lewis?

he deserved to be in there. He was undefeated @130 for 7 years when there's only one division. that means he was undesputed for 7 yrs. So was Flash Elorde and his greatest battles (against Ortiz) were when he went up temporarily .And he's no anywhere near this list. And the FORGOTTEN MAN. He should be HIGH on this list. I refer to Niccolino Locche. NO punch, well over 100 wins, 14 KOs, 3 losses. impossible to hit, stood in the pocket, Opponents gave up in disgust because they couldn't hit him. He won his title that way against Paul Fuji, who gave up in rd 10, although perfectly fit, and un marked, just frustrated. Smoked like a chimney, even between rounds, believe it or not. a unique physical guy.

i thought he was too low, but then again i remember the Holyfield in his prime, his 10 year prime I thought he had a 5 year prime and Even Fields had the other five. Hopkins was smarter. His stint in Correction gave him a lot of smarts. And he had much "Acting" ability, a bullet head, and a "foul" disposition. ( please forgive the puns)

let me elaborate a bit more for the sake of this discussion. and, btw, i don't necessarily believe in number rankings much. jack johnson should be ranked higher - much higher. harry greb, known as the dirtiest fighter ever, how the hell can he be ranked so high. jack dempsey should be a bit higher ranked as well. joe walcott - shoulde be ranked higher. marvin hagler - should be ranked higher. thomas hearns - should be ranked higher. stanley ketchel - should be ranked lower. no kostya tszyu?!? i certainly could go on.... You are the very first member whom have seen, actually joined before I did. A whole year. You must be almost a founder member. So you're a long time observer, and not surprisingly sopme of your comment is similar to mine, Johnson and Ketchell for instance. I often wonder at Nat Fleischer's list, BUT, as he says, he saw every championship heavyweight fight, amongst many other title fights, from Jefferies to Ali, and he didn't really rate Ali. It was he who said that he does many tings wrong, and when he slows down, will be badly punished. Well I have some reservations about a few on his list, not that they are on it, but their ranking, but none about Johnson. We know that he was right about Ali, poor guy who came to a very bad end. Sugar's list is OK but a lot wring with it. It's an impossible task anyway, But any list that has Rocky Marciano on it, except at the very end, is suspect, to me anyway.

And a very smelly, battered old hat, to show his eccentricity. His signatures. Just a gimmick. And I don't think a very good historian.He was around for many years before enyone ever heard of him, and then only when the really top guys died off. - - Bald as an eggplant but good vaudeville hat and cigar act for the networks to trot out when they needed a boxing expert. Funny story about some girl who accidently knocked his hat off at a party. Bert went off like the 4th of July condensed into 30 secs of time.

You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made. And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either. If he has Srl at #25, and Srl has all time great fighters in their prime on his resume I can't see Floyd cracking top 50 with that cherrypicked resume of his

You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made. And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either. Be rt was never going to have floyd above pac in any rankings

No surprise all the Floyd Boys are discrediting him because Floyd is nowhere to be found on his list You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made. And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either.

BHOF is divided into eras for a reason. It's almost a different sport from way back when. Its the same sport. The advent of the weirdo nutthugger hadn't been invented until you came along

I'm only going to make notations next to the ones I have strong feelings on. I may disagree slightly with a few; but he's Bert Sugar, after all and old enough to be my dad, so he get's brownie points for being older and, conversely, probably more knowledgeable...well, obviously more knowledgeable. :D I'm assuming this is a "P4P" list, btw; but will also consider this a "technique" list as well. 1) Ray Robinson 2) Hank Armstrong 3) Willie Pep 4) Joe Louis 5) Harry Greb 6) Benny Leonard 7) Muhammad Ali 8) Roberto Duran too low...by just a bit 9) Jack Dempsey probably too high 10) Jack Johnson 11) Mickey Walker 12) Tony Canzoneri 13) Gene Tunney too high, considering the rest of the list 14) Rocky Marciano 15) Joe Gans 16) Sam Langford probably a bit too low 17) Julio Cesar Chavez 18) Jimmy Wilde too low, me thinks 19) Stanley Ketchel 20) Barney Ross 21) Jimmy McClarnin 22) Archie Moore 23) Marcel Cerdan 24) Ezzard Charles should be higher 25) Ray Leonard 26) The Original Joe Walcott 27) Jake Lamotta 28) Eder Jofre probably too low 29) Emile Griffith 30) Terry McGivern 31) George Foreman way too high 32) Johnny Dundee 33) Jose Napoles too low 34) Pascual Perez 35) Billy Conn probably a bit too low 36) Ruben Olivares 37) Joe Frazier 38) Tommy Loughran 39) Sandy Saddler too low, IMO 40) Kid Chocolate 41) Abe Attell 42) Evander Holyfield considering he was a two division titlist, too low. 43) George Dixon 44) Maxie Rosenbloom 45) Larry Holmes Too low 46) Ted 'Kid' Lewis 47) Marvin Hagler too low 48) Pernell Whitaker way too low 49) Carlos Zarate too low 50) Thomas Hearns 51) Battling Nelson 52) Beau Jack 53) Ricardo Lopez 54) John L Sullivan 55) Carlos Monzon Waaayy too low 56) Alexis Arguello 57) Carmen Basilio 58) Pete Herman 59) Charley Burley never saw him; but from what I've read...too low 60) Ike Williams 61) Kid Gavilan 62) Jack Britton 63) Dick Tiger 64) Pancho Villa 65) Panama Al Brown 66) Bob Fitzsimmons too Low...waaay too low 67) Philadelphia Jack O'Brien 68) Tiger Flowers 69) James J Corbett father of modern boxing...too low 70) Tony Zale 71) Tommy Ryan 72) Georges Carpentier 73) Sonny Liston 74) Kid McCoy 75) Bob Foster 76) Freddie Welsh 77) Joe Jeanette 78) Jim Driscoll 79) Jersey Joe Walcott 80) Peter Jackson 81) Ad Wolgast 82) Jack Dempsey nonpareil too low 83) Manuel Ortiz 84) Jim Jeffries 85) Salvador Sanchez 86) Jimmy Barry 87) Carlos Ortiz 88) Roy Jones jr. too low; but understandable....Jones's competition didn't help him 89) Wilfredo Gomez 90) Aaron Pryor too low me thinks 91) Bernard Hopkins 92) Mike Gibbons 93) Jack Delaney 94) Johnny Kilbane 95) Willie Ritchie 96) Wilfred Benitez 97) Packy MacFarland 98) Rocky Graziano 99) Lew Jenkins 100) Mike Tyson too low You make some good corrections, but far too manywho are ommitted should be on the list. ADd. I yoy thinkabout it, andrread a little about it, The REAL father of ModernBozing was Daniel,Mendoza. His successors reverted back to their old stiff brawling style.-Until Corbett.

No MAB or Morales? I didnt see their names on the list, but I only scanned... :confused: Macho Camacho should be onthe list.

Bert Sugar list included people who never won a title or even fought for a title. Guys like Burley, Jeanette, Gibbons, Peter Jackson made the list. Flash Elorde held the title for seven years but Kilbane held title for 11 years and barely made the cut. Saddler lost to Elorde on tailend of his career. agree on every name. Peter Kand and Benny Lynch should be on the list. Alrady from the so many not on the list hso should be, there can be another list made.of equally good fighters.

Carlos Monzon is stunningly low. He beat Griffith once, Benvenutti twice and was the middleweight champ for a decade. I have seen him in the top ten on many lists. Bert usually has a good reason for this stuff, I would be curious to see what he writes. He write as if sugar was sitting around the corner. The man had been dead for at least 10 or more years. And he wasn't around for years before that, as he had bad lung cancer poor guy. So he must have actually smoked those cigars at some time. I never saw one lighted .

Carlos Monzon is stunningly low. He beat Griffith once, Benvenutti twice and was the middleweight champ for a decade. I have seen him in the top ten on many lists. Bert usually has a good reason for this stuff, I would be curious to see what he writes. Benvenuti lost twice to Monzonin2 of his last 3, he was an Olympic Gold medalist, had about 124 amateur fights woll all. And he reminds me that Luis Rodriguex should be on the list at Benvenuti's level... Just around Emil Griffith's level both of them, and if he's in the list they should be right there with him.. There should have been TWO lists of 100 each.

Wow Leonard at 24 and Hagler at 48, I knew this guy is on crack, how in the hell Lamotta ia ahead of Hagler. This is one of the crappiest lists I've ever seen. I certainly agree with you about Hagler. Unlike most present posters, I've SEEN those earlier fighters, or was around and read aboyt their fights as they took place,. Saw ever one of the major Robinson fights, many on Wide World of Sports etc. I am not a tyoung guy, but still a keen fight fan.

Yeah, pretty easily. Especially if he has his own special Jedges and referees, not forgetting his IVs and let's not mention his failed tests which were concealed by the Commission. He won't be able to read this so I don't mind mentioning them.