Once and for all.....Did Sonny Liston take a dive or not?

I believe he did......

He went down really slow catching himself with every movement... That shows he wasn't really stunned... He just carefully layed on the ground... It was a good punch but if it was a flash knockdown he would have went to the canvas more drastically in my opinion..

yea thats what i just said. that has to ranked up there among the worst referee performances ever!!! why they would pick walcott, a VERY inexperienced ref, to ref a big fight like that is pretty mind boggeling!

Liston didn't get up because Ali didn't go to a neutral corner and the referee didn't start a count.

Legitimate knockdown, but a frustrated liston stayed down because he was an EXTREMELY discouraged fighter. its as simple as that. BUT, he should have gotten a long count, which was in effect. As the stupid young ALI danced around liston, the count should have STOPPED! But because the KD came so sudden, both the ringside manager AND jersey joe himself didnt start a count. It didnt matter anyway, as jersey joe never even gave liston a full count. When Liston finally got to his feet, Walcott ACTUALLY LEFT the fighters alone with ZERO instuctions. He went ringside and took the advice of an AUDIENCE MEMBER (ring magazine editor) who told walcott that liston had been on the ground for 17 seconds!! BUt before walcott could get back and stop the fight, ALI and landed some powershots to an already knocked out liston. thats the story with some of the controversy. He did take a dive, but it was definetly a legitamate KD. The wierd thing is, walcott got the job because he was a former world champion, but he had ZERO formal referee training! idk how he got work refereeing after that botch job!!!

Liston was able to bear down and fight why ali got under his skin to act stupid is beyond me. If he did take a dive it was for betting reasons. Ali just got him totaly frazeled when I think liston could have broght it. That was a weakness in listons game he I guess could not think through adversity. That punch did not look right as ali had to change the angle halfway through the punch. I just guess liston turned out to be a fairly easy nut to crack which I cannot understand with his street tough guy ways. Thats why it doesn't make sense. I mean if Liston had done this in say the 9th round, then maybe it would have had some mert, but to just go out there, and not only give up, but also humiliate himself by being knocked out in the 1st round? That just doesn't make sense and doesn't coincide with Liston's character. I will say this though, that Sonny Liston was certainly an intruiging character. Imean almost everthing about the man is a mystery, from his birth(it is believed that he was born earlier than 1932) to his death(there was some very shady evidence to suggest that he didn't really die from a drug overdose). Hell, it is even said that his real name wasn't even Sonny Liston. The guy is a complete mystery.

If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport. If that's the case, Liston should be banished from the Hall of Fame and is an absolute disgrace to the sport. Well we don't know why he took the dive(if he did indeed take one as I believe), there was always that speculation that he was a mob controlled fighter, and he was forced to do it. There is also the speculation that he threw the fight so that he could pay off some outstanding gambling debts. There is also the theory about the racial tensions and the Nation of Islam forcing him to take a dive. If his life was indeed threatened by the mob to take a dive(like many fighters at the time were forced to), then could you really blame the man for doing it? In any case, that punch was certainly not strong enough to KO someone with a chin of the caliber of Sonny Liston's, hell against Marty Marshall he had got hit with a much harder shot he didn't see coming, while his mouth was open casing his jaw to become broken, but yet he still kept coming. So I have a hard time believing that shot had him out for good.

I think he took a dive. Ali himself didn't seem convinced that shot legitimately hurt Liston.

There's way too many reasons to even begin to guess why he stayed down. The story of the death threats of Ali being shot in the ring is a valid point, but Liston was also involved with the mob. So you have that, the theory of taking a dive to throw a fix, and reasons like screwing over his handlers. Liston was a thug, and there's no telling why he stayed down. He took the reason to the grave.I'll buy that

There's way too many reasons to even begin to guess why he stayed down. The story of the death threats of Ali being shot in the ring is a valid point, but Liston was also involved with the mob. So you have that, the theory of taking a dive to throw a fix, and reasons like screwing over his handlers. Liston was a thug, and there's no telling why he stayed down. He took the reason to the grave.

I guess what I was saying is that liston may have been told to stay down.

I think it had everything to do with Ali. He knew he couldnt beat him, and didnt want to get beat up.Liston was able to bear down and fight why ali got under his skin to act stupid is beyond me. If he did take a dive it was for betting reasons. Ali just got him totaly frazeled when I think liston could have broght it. That was a weakness in listons game he I guess could not think through adversity. That punch did not look right as ali had to change the angle halfway through the punch. I just guess liston turned out to be a fairly easy nut to crack which I cannot understand with his street tough guy ways.

I believe the shot landed, and miiiiight've been a flash knockdown, but there was no way Liston was actually hurt bad. He could've easily gotten up and continued fighting on. So whether or not the punch landed cleanly to me is irrelivent, since the result was Liston quit.

This is funny nothing we do on this website is going to change what happened in that fight. My opinion if he took a dive it had nothing to do with ali. I think it had everything to do with Ali. He knew he couldnt beat him, and didnt want to get beat up.

For years it has been argued that for whatever reason, whether it being that Liston knew he couldn't beat Ali, or he was influenced by the mob, etc that he had taken a dive in their rematch against one another. Others argue that Ali just hit him with a well timed shot. You guys be the judge: What do you guys think? I've always thought that shot legitmatly dropped and stunned him because he didn't see it coming and it was sharp. But, he could have got up. I think that with all the racial tension and death threats around the event, or maybe for some reason we don't know about, he decided to stay down. Either way, Ali legitmatly dropped him and did all that could be asked of him in that fight. Not his fault Liston (for whatever reason) didn't want to fight. It's always bugged me that the contraversy around this fight casted a suspicious light on Ali. He didn't do anything suspect or wrong.

This is funny nothing we do on this website is going to change what happened in that fight. My opinion if he took a dive it had nothing to do with ali.

I think the shot landed clean and dropped Liston. However, he made no effort to get up. Yes and no.

HAHAHA good one. No, it wasn't.

if tyson asked me to suck on his baby toe i would hey hey hey. that aint needed in bs if u going to be like that take your act somewhere else :cool:

HAHAHA good one.