This boxer is the king of No-Contest!

His primary fight base was New York which had strict prohibitions on boxing back then. The fights were scheduled as "exhibitions" where it was legal to make a accidental mistake and KO the other fighter, but any compilation of points for a judgement was considered to be an illegal boxing contest which left the participants open to arrests, fines, and convictions. Harry Greb has a ton of NCs on his record as do most fighters of the era who made their homebase in an NC state. That's why Dempsey was so exciting for boxing. He was KOing most of his opponents so the public usually got to see a conclusive end to a match.I dunno how you take BoxRec: if you don't trust it, I won't blame you. Many don't. Be that as it may, checking BoxRec's record on Greb, it says he fought most of his fights in Philly until 1918, with stops in NY, TN, WI, etc. While he has quite a number of official Draws, he only has a handful of NCs/NDs. He had quite a number of wins via "newspaper decisions", though. Among Greb's few NC's/ND's that BoxRec has on its tally is the one against Kid Norfolk in 1921 in Pittsburgh, where Greb found himself on the canvass in the third. The Pitt Post and the Gazzette Times had it for Norfolk while the Daily Dispatch declared it a "hairline win" for Greb, who was reported to have done a lot of holding in the first five rounds. The KD in the third was said to have been a "flash knockdown" and Greb did not appear to have been hurt.

I read somewhere that boxings first wonder kid Bennt Leanord had over 100 Nc's more than he has winsNot as far as can be told through available records at BoxRec (incomplete, to be sure, but...). Leonard has 32 or 33 NCs/NDs, about 5 or 6 less than Buff, although Leonard had over a hundred more fights than Buff. In a fight against Johnny Dundee which was officially tallied as an NC, The New York Times had Dundee winning by a "wide margin" while the wire services had Leonard the victor. The Trenton Times had it even. The fight was in Philly. Dundee has more NCs than Leonard at around 50, but he had more than thrice the number of fights as Buff had. As far as I can tell, the Dundee meeting was also Leonard's next to last NC/ND: he either won or lost his subsequent fights via stoppages or newspaper verdicts, except the wolrd title fight in 1918 in Newark, NJ, against Ted Lewis, which was declared an NC. The newspapers were unable to agree on a winner: The New York Times called it a draw; the Washington Post and the Calgary Herald had it for Lewis, while the Middletwon Times and the Bridgeport Telegram saw it as a close win for Leonard.

His primary fight base was New York which had strict prohibitions on boxing back then. The fights were scheduled as "exhibitions" where it was legal to make a accidental mistake and KO the other fighter, but any compilation of points for a judgement was considered to be an illegal boxing contest which left the participants open to arrests, fines, and convictions. Harry Greb has a ton of NCs on his record as do most fighters of the era who made their homebase in an NC state. That's why Dempsey was so exciting for boxing. He was KOing most of his opponents so the public usually got to see a conclusive end to a match.

It's also important to note that in many cases back then, when the fight didn't end in a knockout, it was ruled a no decision. The first time Buff won a decision was at a big venue like MSG. After his first points wins, he only had 3 more o decisions.Yes, looking back, it seems really odd. In addition, there were even times when it was left to the newspapers to make the decision, as in the case of the U.S. debut of Pancho Villa, where he was declared loser against Abe Goldstein based on the call of the Jersey Journal. Buff himself lost a "newspaper decision" to Earl Puryear. The Trenton Evening Times awarded the fight to Puryear. Buff claimed to have met Mickey Russel seven times, but only five meetings are recorded. Each of those five on record were NC's. Anyhow, it seems that regardless of the circumstances and the norms applied at that time, Buff has more NC's (or, yes, NDs) than even his contempararies-- to whom the rules, likewise, applied. His numbers are just inordinate. I'm not sure he really is "King" of NCs/NDs. If he's not, I think he should be prime minister or a member of the House of Lords, a member of a Council of Elders, or something. Eh, Sweat?;) That said, it must be added that it seems Pancho Villa didn't have to go through all that because his earliest fights were in the Philippines where they seldom declared fights NDs even then. Going through the records of such early Filipino pugs as Clever Sencio, Little Dado, etc. gives one a glimpse of how they did it in the Philippines then. Villa's six NCs were all on Continental US soil (the Philippines was then a "Commonwealth" under the United States.)

I just wonder how a fighter would get that many nc.

It's also important to note that in many cases back then, when the fight didn't end in a knockout, it was ruled a no decision. The first time Buff won a decision was at a big venue like MSG. After his first points wins, he only had 3 more o decisions.

No contest's were kinda a common outcome back in these days, so it's not that surprising.True. Compared to today, there were a lot more in those days. Joe Lynch, who beat Buff in a title fight, had 33 NCs in 157 fights and Jackie Sharkie who lost to Buff on points in a Bantamweight World title match, had more than 20 NCs in 111 fights recorded. Pete Herman, who won over Joe Lynch but lost to Buff in title matches, also had around 20 NC's (145 fights on record). Johnny Dundee, who won the World Jr. Light title in 1922, had a career record of more than 50 NC's; but, then he had 342 fights registered. On the other hand, Pancho Villa, who TKOd Buff in the 11th in an American Flyweight Title tiff, only had 6 NCs in 109 fights, while Jimmy McLarnin who was the last man to fight Villa (Villa died a few weeks after the meeting) appears to have none on his record. Buff had less fights than Lynch, Sharkie, Herman, Villa and McLarnin at 88, all told. He had 38 NC's, a vast majority of which came at the first half of his career. I dunno, but I think Buff takes the cake.:)

i remember watching a clip of a jack johnson fight. And the commentator said that the No decisions in his record were because boxing was illegal, and as soon as the authorities showed up everyone would run for the hills so they never finished fighting. I think its the same thing with this guy. All the No Contests were No decisions. Look close.

http://boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=018030 :eek: I've never seen that many in a boxer's record. Those are no-decisions. They're different from no-contests.

No contest's were kinda a common outcome back in these days, so it's not that surprising.

LOL! It seems that from the very start he made NC his career goal! You think he must have been mad as hell about the three wins he had in his first ten fights (7 NC's), or the total of five wins he registered in his first 30 outings (25 NC's)? One thing that can be said about Johnny Buff, though: he didn't lose until his 33rd fight! Another thing: he won the WORLD BANTAMWEIGHT TITLE, despite having more NC's than wins going into his title bid! Great thread-starter, Sweat! Thanks for the snack!

What the hell ? how is that possible