Jack Johnson vs Joe Louis

Only lunatics say jack would have a chance

]] ============================================== You see Johnson's style against inferior quality contenders, not Joe Louis. Louis fought real heavies, not old retired champs, middleweights, and journeymen for his title fights. He destroyed big fighters like Willard with ease. I've seen the Burns doc 3xs and don't recall him making that claim about Willard's age. Regardless, I gave you Willard's birthday which can be cross checked by my internet references and most any other reference about Willard. It also checks out in my Guiness book on boxing. Like I previously pointed out, you repeat the tired old myths about Johnson which he promoted in his autobio that has been widely discredited and the Great White Hope play. Burns did an OK job in his doc, but he had a political agenda. The Beane and Gordon bios are much more comprehensive. Even so Burns noted that Johnson drew the color line and refused to meet the black contenders I mentioned. You've never studied the subject like I have so you flounder around and make ridiculous claims like Johnson beat Jeannette several times. Very little of what you have posted is factual other than Johnson beat Burns and held the belt for a few years. I suggest you pay attention to the timeline of the fighters and the events. Here's another likely myth, the 105 degree temps in Havana for the Willard fight. It is rare to have temps over 90 in Havana and if you pay attention to international weather reports most April highs in Havana range in the 80s. According to the weather bureau, the highest recorded temp in KeyWest over the past 100 yrs was 91 degrees. In the year of the Willard fight it was in mid 80s. KW is 90 miles from Havana and their temps are almost identical. Perhaps there was a huge heatwave that day that doesn't show in the record, but I doubt it. Regardless, because of the humidity it was plenty hot, but 105 is a media mistake that has never been corrected and passed on like a NY Times Old Wive's Tale. I've seen no reports on the fight where the temp was even listed.

hmm LOL you could see Johnsons style giving Louis fits? Hhave you ever seen a fight of Johnsons? I've seen one fight of Johnsons, and that was against Willard, and the tape was very fast, and old, meaning the projection wasn't spielbergs work, so how can you tell what style Johnson had? He held his arms low like Vitali, very similiar to Vitali actually, other than that, you can't say shit about Johnson. PS Johnson would win. When Johnson fought Willard he was 37. I've seen Johnson's fights vs Jeffries, Ketchel, Burns, and others, and you can tell his STYLE. It's easy to tell his style, but not his speed from the films. Also you can judge his style based on documents and bios from that time period. In Ken Burns' film about Johnson it was stated Willard was 10 yrs younger than Johnson, so it is true. Your source is incorrect, Blackie. You have some serious delusions about Johnson brought about by the Great White Hope broadway play of the 60s which is historically inaccurate. I have never even seen this play you speak of. Assuming akes an ass out of you and me. And...Johnson foguth Jeanette and deserved the win several times, but in the old days they would call a "ND" if the bout did not end in KO. Basically, your flat wrong to insinuate that Jeanette was the better fighter. No one would say that. Additionally, Johnson got the most press because he was the best the blacks had to offer, and was seen as a threat. That distinction did not belong to McVea or Jeanette or Griffin. And so what if Louis has more "character" than Johnson? What does that have to do with anything. We are talking about them fighting each other.

That is a falsehood. Tell me what skilled fighter was able to beat Johnson once he got the championship? No one did until he was 37 and out of shape. Louis should be favored of course. I could see Johnson's style giving Louis fits. LOL you could see Johnsons style giving Louis fits? Hhave you ever seen a fight of Johnsons? I've seen one fight of Johnsons, and that was against Willard, and the tape was very fast, and old, meaning the projection wasn't spielbergs work, so how can you tell what style Johnson had? He held his arms low like Vitali, very similiar to Vitali actually, other than that, you can't say shit about Johnson. PS Johnson would win.

]] ================================ You bring up irrelevant details to buttress a weak historical foundation. Johnson challenged Hart, OK? Hart took the fight to Johnson and staggered him at one point. Johnson was warned by the ref repeatedly for holding and before the bout was warned about holding. News reports are mixed about the outcome, but most agree the Johnson was very unimpressive and that face notwithstanding, Hart was clearly the aggressor who made the fight a fight. You act like it was a slamdunk Johnson victory snatched by "The Man." It wasn't, but it was an example of Johnson not being able to adapt and perform up to the conditions which clearly dictated at every point that the ref was not pleased with grappling, something most fans of the era were not pleased with Johnson for. He blew his first high profile fight, plain and simple. In the end, he got many more chances than he ever afforded McVea, Langford, Jeannette, and Wills, so, again, spare me the violins and hankies for Johnson.

]] =================================================== Dude, go back to school. Johnson was born in 1878, Willard in 1881. Go to boxrec or cyberboxing and check out the essentials. Clearly you can't follow a time line. Johnson never faced Jeannette, Langford, McVey or Wills in their primes. Johnson only beat Jeannette once, and Jeannette beat him once in spite of only being a novice fighter. Johnson only faced Langford once when Sam was coming up from lightweights. From the time Johnson beat the 150 lb version of Sam to the time Willard flipped Johnson's switch, Langford was beating and knocking out a who's who of HOF heavies and era contenders at a 4-1 rate compared to Johnson's meager comp. Johnson was the most publicized fighter of the period, not the best. That was Langford. Moreover, you're just dead wrong about Jeffries, who also fought another black contender, Bob Armstrong, when Jeff was an up and coming novice. I know what Jeff said, that he would not defend his title against a black heavy, but he grew up fighting the best black heavy contenders and scheduled Griffin in their last fight while Jeff was still the champ in a non title bout. Maybe if Griffin had performed better Jeff might have given him a title shot, but Griffin went and whupped Johnson the next year, so Griffin was the real deal that Jeff handled twice. 6 of Jeffs 22 career bouts were against top black contenders and one champ, Johnson. The record is clear and clearly you're dead wrong about Jeffries. You have some serious delusions about Johnson brought about by the Great White Hope broadway play of the 60s which is historically inaccurate. It's a PLAY!. Geoffry Beane just published the latest Johnson bio. Read it. Read Randy Gordons bio. Both are more sympathetic to Johnson than I am, but they don't candy coat his ass like you do. They deal in the factual timeline of events and snapshot bios of all relevant charactors in his life. Johnson was a talented fighter, but deeply flawed, conflicted and very, very selfish and self destructive which shows in his record. Joe Louis was several grades above Johnson both in character and in the ring.

hmm Willard, who was very inexperienced and only 3 yrs younger than Johnson. Incorrect. Willard was TEN years younger. Secondly, Johnson WAS the predominant black fighter of the 1900's. YOU must believe in tooth-faeries to state otherwise. You say that Johnson didn't beat Langford and Jeanette, which is a straight out lie. He beat both, and he beat Jeanette several times. As for Hart, here's where I see you really don't know what you're talking about. Hart got the fuck beat out of him by Johnson. Hart's face was beaten to a pulp by Johnson's counter-punches, and the white ref scored the fight for the white fighter, who was Hart. Also, Hart was OWNED by Tommy Burns who went on to lose every round to Jack Johnson when they fought. In his fight with Ketchel (160 lbs.), Ketchel drops him with one punch, a right hand. A punch Ketchel wasn't even set to throw becase he jumped when he threw it. Now, that leads me to my next point. The reason he got dropped is obviously because he was caught by surprise. Johnson and Ketchel were friends and Johnson agreed to take it easy on him. This made the fight boring and the crowd booed, so Ketchel launched a right hand and bobmed Johnson with it. Johnson got up quickly and promptly knocked Ketchel the fuck out. Also, I've read, saw, and heard from reliable sources (PBS, Ken Burns, Bert Sugar) that yes, the teeth had been imbedded in his glove. In any case, I agree that Johnson was lying when he said he threw the fight vs Willard. He was legit KO'd because he was out of shape and past his prime. And Blackie...don't even try to dispute that Jeffries ducked Johnson. It is a documented fact noted by every boxing historian and newspapers at the time. That's how it was back then. When Jeffries was champion he stated he would not fight a negro, plain and simple. He also fought Hank Griffin 2x, knocking him out and winning a 4 rd decison the year before Griffin beat Johnson. You forgot to mention the two fights after that which were ruled draws between Griffin and Johnson. Willard left Johnson unconcious for 5 min, just like Joe Choynski did near the end of Joe's career in Johnson's hometown of Galveston. Johnson would have beaten Choynski soundly had they fought at the time Johnson was champ, and also, Willard beat Johnson when Johnson was 37 and overweight...big deal. Also...Johnson beat McVea 3 or 4 times, KO'ing him in their last fight, so don't bs me. Questioning his opposition is pretty stupid. Additionally, Johnson was never KO'd or dropped legitimately by a middlweight in his prime, which is what we are talking about here. Anyways...if you feel Louis would win, I agree most likely, but you need to learn how to back up your arguments without saying fasle things about Jack Johnson.

I thought it was funny when they brought the supposed champs (Burns and Jeffries) in to fight Johnson and the Galveston Giant just played with them, laughing at them while he beat their asses. He pissed off a lot of white ppl doing that. Johnson had a not-so-crowd pleasing style, but he did throw punches, and they hurt. Fucking had Stanley Ketchel's teeth imbedded in his glove after KO'ing him. That's power. Comparing him to Ruiz was a crime. Ruiz does not have the heart of a Jack Johnson. The styles are even only vaguely similar. Jack wasn't afraid to hit you, and he parrayed punches a lot instead of just hugging when attacked. First, I said remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him. Jess Willard wasn't all that skilled in my book, but he knew how to use his height and reach to box the shorter Johnson and keep him from wrestling, until Johnson tired and Willard was able to land the right hand that ko'd him. He always denied that he was ko'd and alot of people buy that, but think about it. In his fight with Ketchel (160 lbs.), Ketchel drops him with one punch, a right hand. A punch Ketchel wasn't even set to throw becase he jumped when he threw it. Now, that leads me to my next point. Most everyone who is a boxing fan and knows of Johnson knows about him supposedly implanting Ketchel's teeth in his glove when he floored and ko'd Ketchel only seconds after being dropped himself. This simply isn't true. If you watch the film in slow motion, you can see that Johnson uses the right glove to wipe the left glove. It was a right hand that dropped Ketchel, so the teeth should have been embedded in the right glove. Since the whole rumor is based on the fact that he wiped his glove after dropping Ketchel, this rumor doesn't hold water. Jeffries is the guy who had retired from boxing and came back as a "white hope". The guy had no real desire to fight anymore and coming back to satisfy the white race when his heart wasn't in the sport anymore was a huge mistake. Couple that with the fact that he was supposedly right around 300 lbs. and lost 70 something pounds to get back to the 225 lbs. he had previously fought at, and fought Jack at his prime, in 100 degree heat, outside,..oh and don't forget, Burns was how heavy? How tall? Oh, about 5'7 and 160 lbs. Johnson wouldn't be able to hold Louis' arm down with one hand and hit him with the other because Louis had considerable reach and punched in combinations, when he wasn't peppering his opponents with that jab of his.

]] ============================ Dude, I bet you believe in tooth faeries too. You're referring to Jim Jeffries who barely finished his career with 2 dozen bouts, but as a novice fought the best black fighter of his era Peter Jackson and KOed him. He also fought Hank Griffin 2x, knocking him out and winning a 4 rd decison the year before Griffin beat Johnson. If he was really ducking Johnson, then why would he come out of a long retirement, sweat off almost 100 lbs, and take on Johnson as an old rusty fighter? Did you know that Johnson lost to Marvin Hart in a fight that likely would have put him in the tournament for Jeffries belt that Hart ended up taking or maybe secure one last bout against Jeffries before he retired? Johnson's biggest problem came making some big money fights against white contenders before he won his title, but he managed to get Gardner and Hart, so someone was willing to fight him.

]] ====================== Louis is so much better than Johnson that he'd pound Johnson a deeper shade of purple in a sloppy fight that has Johnson grappling for his life. You really should check out Johnson's title comp. It's full of forgotten journeymen, middleweights, a long retired obese former champ and then Willard, who was very inexperienced and only 3 yrs younger than Johnson. Willard left Johnson unconcious for 5 min, just like Joe Choynski did near the end of Joe's career in Johnson's hometown of Galveston. Johnson's best came after the Choynski fight. He could still be beat as did black contender Griffen and Hart showed, but he was in with some stiffer heavy comp than he faced as champion. He ducked the best black contenders who were just entering their primes while he had the belt, McVey, Langford, Jeannete and Wills and there were better white heavy contenders he could have faced. Louis only lost 3 fights, all to HOFers and was never dropped or KOed by middleweights like Johnson was and beat every kind of style and size of fighter. He was just several grades above Johnson who I am certain was the best whoring champ. Ain't nobody gonna outwhore Jack!

hmm I thought it was funny when they brought the supposed champs (Burns and Jeffries) in to fight Johnson and the Galveston Giant just played with them, laughing at them while he beat their asses. He pissed off a lot of white ppl doing that. Johnson had a not-so-crowd pleasing style, but he did throw punches, and they hurt. Fucking had Stanley Ketchel's teeth imbedded in his glove after KO'ing him. That's power. Comparing him to Ruiz was a crime. Ruiz does not have the heart of a Jack Johnson. The styles are even only vaguely similar. Jack wasn't afraid to hit you, and he parrayed punches a lot instead of just hugging when attacked.

Louis would win but there's a lot of shit talking going on concerning Johnson. Johnson was a bad, bad man who could really fucking punch and had great reflexes and a hard style to hang with once you got in there with him. He looked flat footed and hittable on film, but trust me most of those guys (who were better than you think) couldn't lay a hand on him. Comparing him to John Ruiz? That's fucked up. You better apologize before old Papa Jack's ghost rips you a new one.

and lost to the first remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him. That is a falsehood. Tell me what skilled fighter was able to beat Johnson once he got the championship? No one did until he was 37 and out of shape. Louis should be favored of course. I could see Johnson's style giving Louis fits.

Johnson's got a real chance, but I think part of what made him "Jack Johnson" was that he used the 20-25 round (often finish fights) distance to his advantage, letting his opponent waste energy early trying to get through his guard, then come on later. In a 15-round fight (1940's, after all), he'd have no such time to play and bide his time. He'd have to work. He'd frustrate Louis, but Louis's Achilles Heel was movers, and Johnson didn't move as much as many think. He was great defensively, but didn't skip around that much. This is why I pick Louis in a 15-round decision. Close, boring, but clear decision.

Jack Johnson fought huge out of shape guys that weren't even fighters and skilled but hugely undersized fighters for the most part, and lost to the first remotely skilled fighter that didn't give up 40 lbs. and 5 or 6 inches of reach to him. Jack Johnson was the 1900's equivalent of John Ruiz. He wrestled, he held and hit, and don't forget the guy that came out of retirement to fight him and had to lose like 70 or 80 lbs. also fought him outside in the sweltering heat and lost, wonder why? One really can't blame Johnson for his resume, boxingstyles were very different then and fighters on the average were much smaller. He also fought the best fighters that would fight him. That being said, Johnson was nowhere near the fighter that Louis was. Johnson wouldn't be able to hold and hit Jouis because Jouis was just under 6'3 himself. Jouis also had a terrific jab, a punch seldom used by Johnson. Bottom line, IMO Johnson would have taken as bad a beating as Tony Galento did during Louis' bum of the month club. I don't even think Johnson could have made it a competetive fight.

Louis. Better skills and discipline. But I would love to see it