whast with the Ali downgrading threads?

One thing everyone seems to be forgetting is that Ali was forced to take a 3-year layoff in the prime years of his career (ages 25-28) in which he rotted in prison. So the fact that he could come back from that and win anything is remarkable. People make too much of his losses that came right after this time off as well as the ones he got when he was older. Fact it that by the time he was 25 he had arguably done more than any other heavyweight of that age in history. Add too that post-prison wins against the likes of Foreman and Frazier and the argument about his greatness is over.

o ye and how come frazier didn't ask for the 4th match lol. ali did what he had to do. if sum1 quit, if doctor stopped it, w/e, not his fault. he went and he did what he had to do. he was going to win anyways

Well to be fair we can take a little away from him. He lost to both Norton and Frazier. Liston quit in the first fight from an injured shoulder and layed down in the second fight. All of which add to my assertion that the Foreman win was by the far the most important of his career. Ali was promoted by Don King in the 70's and he ducked a Foreman rematch like the plaugue. Ali said after the 3rd Frazier fight he wanted to rematch Foreman and then retire. I wish he would have done that. He would have lost in the rematch and the torch would have been properly passed to Foreman, but it was never to be probably because of Don King or some other issue. Also if he would have followed that plan, fought Foreman and retired he might not have gotten such bad brain damage if he quit in late 75 or 76 instead of 81. We also would have never had to see Ali loose to that faggot Leon Spinks in 78. im sorry did u say foreman would beat ali in the rematch. didn't ppl say that foreman would hammer him foreman said himself "you kno after u lose to sum1 u say, ' i wana get back at him, i want a rematch'. after i lost to him, i said 'there no way im getting back in the ring with him." foreman would've got smashed and every1 here knows it. ppl say shit about ali, well they must be dumb. theres a reason hes known as the greatest

Well if his eye were practically shut he would not be able to see Ali's shot which would lead to unecessary punishment. But his eye was not even close to being practically shut, neither of them were. They Phillipino doctor or whatever commisions doctor stopped the fight on that condition no less though.

why take away from a fighter is his opponent is the one who quit? especially if his opponent is supposed to be the big bad monster who could walk through anything... why take away from Ali when his opponent lays down? Ali went in the ring, did what he had to do...was embarassing Liston again... Ali lost to Norton, but also beat Norton twice...Ali lost to Frazier, but also beat Frazier twice...regardless of what people thought about the Norton fights...Ali is the recorded winner twice... how can people take away from Ali that he beat Foreman because Foreman burnt himself out...Foreman didn't just burn himself out, Ali helped him...Ali did something great that night... Foreman was the most important fight of his career... every great fighter has several big fights, a few great wins, and one or two defining wins... That is one of the main things I notice about Ali in all his fights, not just the Foreman fight. It seems that in almost every single fight he makes his opponent work so much harder to land and expend so much energy to land than Ali does himself. If you notice basically every one of his fights seem to follow that pattern except maybe in his early career in the mid 60's when he sometimes danced alot.

Well if his eye were practically shut he would not be able to see Ali's shot which would lead to unecessary punishment.

How was the Doctors decision bullshit. Would you rather the fight was stopped or Frazier die in the last round. He was only doing his job and protecting Frazier. Frazier looked less spent then Ali did even though Frazier took alot of punishment in round 14. The doctors reasoning for the stoppage was Frazier's eyes and they were not that bad at all. Like I said they were not nearly swollen shut he only had mouses under both eyes.

How was the Doctors decision bullshit. Would you rather the fight was stopped or Frazier die in the last round. He was only doing his job and protecting Frazier.

Joe did not quit in the 3rd Ali fight. The doctor bullshit stopped it. That was my whole point. That doctor was bullshit. He stopped it supposedly because of the condition of Frazier's eyes and they were not that swollen they were nowhere near swollen to point where he could not see. They were mostly below the eye. Frazier being former Undisputed Champion and holding a win over Ali and having given hell to Ali the entire fight deserved a damn 15th round. The word quit was not even in Joe Frazier's vocabulary. Even after he was dropped 8 times by Foreman he kept getting up and bouncing and coming forward. ok, my fault for my lack of research into what happened in the corner of that fight... either way, Ali came to fight...they both did...Ali got the better of Joe in most of the rounds and looked on his way to a victory...it was a close fight...but what do you expect between two natural rivals of HOFer quality? that victory should NOT be belittled for Ali...

but again, Ali went in there with an A class HOFer and did what he had to do...Ali looked like he was the one who should have quit...but guess what...he didn't! Frazier is the one who didn't come out for the final round of possibly his biggest fight...that is on him...if anything you should be getting on Joe for not coming out...Ali didn't do anything wrong...he fought...they both fought...just Joe didn't come out...Joe coulda shoulda woulda whatever...the fact of the matter is that he did not... Joe did not quit in the 3rd Ali fight. The doctor bullshit stopped it. That was my whole point. That doctor was bullshit. He stopped it supposedly because of the condition of Frazier's eyes and they were not that swollen they were nowhere near swollen to point where he could not see. They were mostly below the eye. Frazier being former Undisputed Champion and holding a win over Ali and having given hell to Ali the entire fight deserved a damn 15th round. The word quit was not even in Joe Frazier's vocabulary. Even after he was dropped 8 times by Foreman he kept getting up and bouncing and coming forward.

I see what you're saying, but wasn't Liston like 40 in the first fight? wasn't Liston like the champ and considered to be the monster who Ali had no chance against? Liston lost because he could not catch Ali or match his talent...plain and simple...

I wish the 3rd Frazier fight went to the cards. Joe's eyes did not look in that bad of condition and that damn doctor should have let him fight the 15th round. Frazier probably would have still lost on the cards but he deserved at least to not have L TKO on his record rather a L UD or MD. He might even knocked Ali down or something in the 15th Ali was understandably spent as hell after the 14th round, I would say more spent than Frazier, Frazier had the better Stamina and by at least Norton's account in better condition for that fight, plus Ali ate so many hard left hooks to the head vicious body punches in that fight. but again, Ali went in there with an A class HOFer and did what he had to do...Ali looked like he was the one who should have quit...but guess what...he didn't! Frazier is the one who didn't come out for the final round of possibly his biggest fight...that is on him...if anything you should be getting on Joe for not coming out...Ali didn't do anything wrong...he fought...they both fought...just Joe didn't come out...Joe coulda shoulda woulda whatever...the fact of the matter is that he did not...

why take away from a fighter is his opponent is the one who quit? especially if his opponent is supposed to be the big bad monster who could walk through anything... why take away from Ali when his opponent lays down? Ali went in the ring, did what he had to do...was embarassing Liston again... Ali lost to Norton, but also beat Norton twice...Ali lost to Frazier, but also beat Frazier twice...regardless of what people thought about the Norton fights...Ali is the recorded winner twice... how can people take away from Ali that he beat Foreman because Foreman burnt himself out...Foreman didn't just burn himself out, Ali helped him...Ali did something great that night... Foreman was the most important fight of his career... every great fighter has several big fights, a few great wins, and one or two defining wins... I see what you're saying, but wasn't Liston like 40 in the first fight?

why take away from a fighter is his opponent is the one who quit? especially if his opponent is supposed to be the big bad monster who could walk through anything... why take away from Ali when his opponent lays down? Ali went in the ring, did what he had to do...was embarassing Liston again... Ali lost to Norton, but also beat Norton twice...Ali lost to Frazier, but also beat Frazier twice...regardless of what people thought about the Norton fights...Ali is the recorded winner twice... how can people take away from Ali that he beat Foreman because Foreman burnt himself out...Foreman didn't just burn himself out, Ali helped him...Ali did something great that night... Foreman was the most important fight of his career... every great fighter has several big fights, a few great wins, and one or two defining wins... I wish the 3rd Frazier fight went to the cards. Joe's eyes did not look in that bad of condition and that damn doctor should have let him fight the 15th round. Frazier probably would have still lost on the cards but he deserved at least to not have L TKO on his record rather a L UD or MD. He might even knocked Ali down or something in the 15th Ali was understandably spent as hell after the 14th round, I would say more spent than Frazier, Frazier had the better Stamina and by at least Norton's account in better condition for that fight, plus Ali ate so many hard left hooks to the head vicious body punches in that fight.

Well to be fair we can take a little away from him. He lost to both Norton and Frazier. Liston quit in the first fight from an injured shoulder and layed down in the second fight. All of which add to my assertion that the Foreman win was by the far the most important of his career. Ali was promoted by Don King in the 70's and he ducked a Foreman rematch like the plaugue. Ali said after the 3rd Frazier fight he wanted to rematch Foreman and then retire. I wish he would have done that. He would have lost in the rematch and the torch would have been properly passed to Foreman, but it was never to be probably because of Don King or some other issue. Also if he would have followed that plan, fought Foreman and retired he might not have gotten such bad brain damage if he quit in late 75 or 76 instead of 81. We also would have never had to see Ali loose to that faggot Leon Spinks in 78. why take away from a fighter is his opponent is the one who quit? especially if his opponent is supposed to be the big bad monster who could walk through anything... why take away from Ali when his opponent lays down? Ali went in the ring, did what he had to do...was embarassing Liston again... Ali lost to Norton, but also beat Norton twice...Ali lost to Frazier, but also beat Frazier twice...regardless of what people thought about the Norton fights...Ali is the recorded winner twice... how can people take away from Ali that he beat Foreman because Foreman burnt himself out...Foreman didn't just burn himself out, Ali helped him...Ali did something great that night... Foreman was the most important fight of his career... every great fighter has several big fights, a few great wins, and one or two defining wins...

in the end, you cannot take Liston, Frazier, Foreman, and Patterson away from Ali...you cannot take away his heart, talent, speed, class and arogance, confidence, dedication, chin, whatever away from him because of lull performances... Well to be fair we can take a little away from him. He lost to both Norton and Frazier. Liston quit in the first fight from an injured shoulder and layed down in the second fight. All of which add to my assertion that the Foreman win was by the far the most important of his career. Ali was promoted by Don King in the 70's and he ducked a Foreman rematch like the plaugue. Ali said after the 3rd Frazier fight he wanted to rematch Foreman and then retire. I wish he would have done that. He would have lost in the rematch and the torch would have been properly passed to Foreman, but it was never to be probably because of Don King or some other issue. Also if he would have followed that plan, fought Foreman and retired he might not have gotten such bad brain damage if he quit in late 75 or 76 instead of 81. We also would have never had to see Ali loose to that faggot Leon Spinks in 78.

people should also remember that Ali was VERY fast before his exile...when he came back, he wasn't exactly the same...a little heavier...a little older...a lot of the fights they show are later in his career where he did the great things... Ali was fast for a Heavyweight...may not have looked like a Ray Leonard, Jones, or Mayweather in every fight...but he was quick on the release counters when it counted...

back to the original question... ESPN Classic is having I guess you could call a marathon of "The Greatest" Muhammad Ali. What Ali has done in and out of Boxing has been great. His wars, his opponents, and the way he has won fights. Also his personality and talent. The thing is that watching Ali NOW after being spoiled by guys like Jones Jr, Mayweather, Pacman, Morales, Gatti, etc...Ali doesn't LOOK all of that impressive. The thing is that a lot of the fights ESPN is showing are his 15 round beatdowns of Chuvalo, Bonavena, and others of the like...those fights, he dominated clearly...but it wasn't like he looked spectacular...he didn't put on Floyd/Gatti like performances...throughout the fight...watching TODAY...he looks a little sloppy, lull, a bit slow, etc... but as I posted somewhere else, I think Ali would perform at or "slightly" above the level of his opponent...when he fought the B class guys, he would just jab and do enough to win the round en route to a decision or late 14-15 round TKO...vs the A class likes of Frazier and Foreman, he would be more intense and more animated...and THOSE are the performances he is most remembered for... but watching these other fights in their entirety basically may make today's Boxing fans want to change the channel and come back around the 13-15th rounds to see Ali finish the guy off... in the end, you cannot take Liston, Frazier, Foreman, and Patterson away from Ali...you cannot take away his heart, talent, speed, class and arogance, confidence, dedication, chin, whatever away from him because of lull performances...

Foreman said that he hit Ali with hardest punches he ever hit a fighter with in his career. Ali took them and was the only guy to stop Big George, not even the "new" generation was able to even come close to stopping Foreman.

ali Ali Was Impressve In The Foreman Fight Are You Kidding Me ? He Was Sharp. And Supplements,workout Machines Etc Have Nothing To Do With Boxing.