Lewis, overated or a true Heavyweight great?

Thanks for the other reply. People generally, don't realise just how large these men are. Years ago, I was introduced to the then up and coming heavyweight, Pierre Coetze. The man was +- 6'5"...hands the size of dinner plates...and it seemed as if he could block daylight from a barn's doorway! It was the same impression when I met Gerrie Coetzee. One good crack from those guys and one has to go down! What's happened to Butterbean? Haven't seen him around for a long time now? He is in k1

Thanks for the other reply. People generally, don't realise just how large these men are. Years ago, I was introduced to the then up and coming heavyweight, Pierre Coetze. The man was +- 6'5"...hands the size of dinner plates...and it seemed as if he could block daylight from a barn's doorway! It was the same impression when I met Gerrie Coetzee. One good crack from those guys and one has to go down! What's happened to Butterbean? Haven't seen him around for a long time now?

I don't think 6-4, 230lb George Foreman would be "dwarved". Nobody today could match his power. Someone needs to recheck how much Foreman weighed.

Of the group of fighters bandied about as top ten greats, who besides Lennox has that bad of a chin? Nobody Size matters eh? I guess Michael Grant, Primo Carnera and Butterbean are up there as well? A little guy can't beat a big guy? Tyson beat a lot of guys who were bigger than him sometimes by a good bit, and Tyson's greatness has been suspect. Lennox is top twenty, maybe top fifteen, no more than that. He was big, had some skills and a very craftily guided career. So he avenged one of his losses(McCall doesn't count) big deal. He did to Rahman what the Rock did to him. The score is 1 to 1. Why does Lennox get credit for that? Did they have a rubber match I'm not aware of? My opinion as to a top ten in no particular order: Ali Louis Holmes Dempsey Foreman Frazier Liston Holyfield Marciano Johnson

Also, whoever thinks Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano could somehow walk out of the 1920s or 1950s and dominate today needs a little head shake and some medicinal help. They would be pygmies today - as SoundTraveller points out, they might be dominant cruisers, but that would be it. Even Sonny Liston and George Foreman would dwarved by today's standards. You can't compare heavies from different eras IMO, simply because of the size progression of the human race in general. I don't think 6-4, 230lb George Foreman would be "dwarved". Nobody today could match his power.

Also, whoever thinks Jack Dempsey or Rocky Marciano could somehow walk out of the 1920s or 1950s and dominate today needs a little head shake and some medicinal help. They would be pygmies today - as SoundTraveller points out, they might be dominant cruisers, but that would be it. Even Sonny Liston and George Foreman would dwarved by today's standards. You can't compare heavies from different eras IMO, simply because of the size progression of the human race in general.

Ok. First post (on my way to 100 ;) ). My 2c - LL was (and is) all time top 10 in the heavies, but only just. He was either THE MAN, or THE PREVIOUS MAN for 10 years straight, and everyone knew he was the quality of the division. A couple sucker losses drop him out of the top 5, but the fact he avenged those puts him in the top 10. History will perhaps judge him a little more fairly than many do today...

All time great in my eyes. At the end of the day, he never ducked anyone and beat everyone put in front of him. Can't argue with that record.

Jack Dempsey was 6'1, 190 lbs of pure muscle. Tyson didn't lose to Lewis b/c he was smaller-he lost b/c he was an old, shot pressure fighter who had lost the skills and reflexes of his youth-he just sat there and walked into jabs all night. If you aren't using foot movement or moving your upperbody, I don't care if you're 7 ft or 5'8, you aren't going to beat a top HW, esp. a jabber like Lennox Lewis. Dempsey knocked out men, top HWs (Carl Morris, Fred Fulton, Jess Williard etc.) who were as big or bigger then Lewis. The size thing is an issue to a certain extent but only to a certain degree. Dempsey was a big man with broad shoulders and large hands. He was not a 'blown up' middle or a Chris Byrd sized fighter. Here's a good article: http://www.15rounds.com/Columns/apaloka/thenextbigthing.htm and here's another http://coxscorner.tripod.com/jdempsey.html

Just a couple more things, first, thank you Jose for the great pic of the young Mr. Lewis and the Tyson camp - you solidified a point for me! Second, I agree with you that neither Marciano or Dempsey could take a Lewis if all were in their primes - no way. Both of the fighters of the past were tough, but damn, they were my size. Third, WHDempsey, I did not know that Langford actually went blind - thank you, I learn something everyday. Fourth, when I stood next to Lewis in Memphis, I said to myself "Jesus, this guy is huge, how is Tyson going to whip him?"!! Shortly thereafter we all found out the answer and I lost my money....

It's great that we have someone on this forum, who is so close to the game. You must have seen & heard a hell of a lot behind the scenes, that never reach the ears of many. A question, that you may be equipped to answer. I live in South Africa: ESPN shows fights that are always weeks behind. Why is this so? Except for the live satellite fights, we get crap from ESPN. It's good to see that Buffer finally realised that he looks better with grey hair! You should tell a few of the refs to quit the hair & moustache dye as well. What actually happened to Teddy Atlas...was he involved in a car accident...or was his defense that bad? ;) Good luck in your career! Thanks my friend, and to try to answer for ESPN would be hard for me to do, but the next time I work an event for them I will ask the producer if he knows why they would be weeks behind. I had no idea that was the case. That said, I do have to add the fact is, alot of my fight cards are "tape delays" as they call it, but usually it is only for a day or two, maybe a week at most. Perhaps ESPN wants to make sure they have a show every week where you live, to do that would require some tape delays because they don't have a Friday Night Fight to film EVERY Friday, they may go a week or two without seeing a card worth their while in their estimation. As for the gray hair, well, I think I'll stay clear of that one with Mr Buffer - as he can be a bit of a "prima donna" I have been told. (by more than a few people) He was a former male model when he was a bit younger. Did you know he was also a used car salesman in Germany?! It's true! He was nice enough to me though, and people had told me that he wouldn't be. Perhaps it was because I had also worked with his brother Bruce years ago, but he was polite to me, so I give him props...http://img60.exs.cx/img60/7774/JDMichaelBufferresized.jpg

Apologies accepted Dempsey, and I do not mean to come off condescending, I never realized that I was being taken as such. I do not post with the intent of sounding that way, when I type a sentence, like everyone else, it is just my train of thought at the time - nothing personal. I don't even read what I type, at least not very thoroughly, and only edit to add something. Also, I am prone to misspelling from time to time, oh well, it's just me being me. Mi wife r a genius sew I don't have to b 1. lol! Like I said earlier, I would like to see smaller guys fighting big boys, but 60lbs is just too much. Oh, and, Dempsey would still be a Cruiserweight today! :p :D

Overrated in the fact that many compare him to Ali. Lewis was great in his day but to compare him to "The Greatest" is going a little overboard.

It's great that we have someone on this forum, who is so close to the game. You must have seen & heard a hell of a lot behind the scenes, that never reach the ears of many. A question, that you may be equipped to answer. I live in South Africa: ESPN shows fights that are always weeks behind. Why is this so? Except for the live satellite fights, we get crap from ESPN. It's good to see that Buffer finally realised that he looks better with grey hair! You should tell a few of the refs to quit the hair & moustache dye as well. What actually happened to Teddy Atlas...was he involved in a car accident...or was his defense that bad? ;) Good luck in your career!

Was never a Lewis fan but even I would put him in the top 10...he beat everyone in his era.

just in case anyone is wondering yes Lewis and Tyson did spar with eachother when they were kids. http://www.boxingscene.com/media/data/500/8918251lewis1.jpg Now lets be realistic here. No way in hell Dempsey or Marciano would make it out alive against Lennox Lewis.

He's up there with Joe Frazier and Louis.

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering... His record read 164-35-33 (115) 48 ND's and 3 NC's. That's a kayo rate of 41%. Not that impressive. Of course, the Ring rates him as the second best puncher of the last century, and they tend to know what they're talking about. I wouldn't rank him as high as that, but I do respect their opinions.

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering... He was beaten blind during the years that Jack Dempsey was champion. I mean it literally, it's not an indictment of Sam's skill. He could no longer see. Sam Langford was as tough as they came, and he would have had a better chance at beating Dempsey than Harry Wills. Well, except for that bit about him not being able to see. Excuse me for misunderstanding your statement, and forgive me for insulting you. You have every right to be proud of your career. I went too far. Forgive me. Also, I did not mean to type that it doesn't exist. Mea culpa. Furthermore, I can understand why such a statement would bother you, since it irritates me when people insist that so-and-so "beat" another fighter, just because the official verdict was controversial. I meant to type should not exist. I'm sure you know how these things go. But you have to admit, you are pretty condescending a lotta the time. Nonetheless, I stand by my arguments. The cruiserweight class is depriving us of a much more competitive heavyweight class, as evidenced by the success which fighters such as Jack Dempsey had against larger men. If you don't agree, so be it. I will simply always believe you're wrong. As for my ring career, we'll have to wait and see. I actually have very tight control over my emotions. It's harder to tell through a monitor.

By the way Dempsey, Langford had nearly 200 wins - mostly by ko during the "Great Jack Dempsey era", so when was he getting "beaten blind" as you put it? Just wondering...