By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as Shawn Porter vs. Errol Spence, the career of Lamont Peterson, Sergey Kovalev vs. Canelo Alvarez, Mikey Garcia vs. Errol Spence and more.
There are rumors swirling that Spence vs Porter is next. After Porter’s performance vs Ugas do you think he deserves this fight? It’s so frustrating that we never get the fights we want, when we want them.
Bread’s Response: You guys always find something to complain about. Of course Porter deserves the fight. He’s a top 5 fighter in the division and he’s the WBC champion. I get that the decision against Ugas was controversial but we have to honor the outcome. Porter won.
So if you look at the PBC landscape there are 5 opponents for Errol Spence. Danny Garcia, Keith Thurman, Manny Pacquiao, Omar Figueroa and Shawn Porter.
Thurman doesn’t seem interested in fighting Spence right now. That would be the best fight in PBC but Thruman needs more time.
Danny Garcia has a fight coming up April 20th.
Omar Figueroa is undefeated but he’s been inactive and he hasn/t realy established himself at 147.
Manny Pacquiao moves the needle and he would create the most money.
Shawn Porter is willing to step up, he’s the WBC champion and he has a win over Danny Garcia which puts him in front of Garcia in the deserving category.
I think it’s a really solid fight. Not a super fight but a solid fight. On top of that I know you guys want Spence vs Crawford but when have we gotten a super fight in this era right in both guys primes? It’s just not the way things are done in this era. But we have to live with it.
I told you guys that Spence vs Crawford wouldn’t get made right away anyway. The PBC has the leverage. Spence can unify and become bigger, so if and when he does fight Crawford he will have more leverage. I don’t think Spence vs Crawford will get made until the WBC, WBA and IBF belts get unified. It’s a shame for Terence Crawford he’s a generational talent. But he will be 32 this year and boxing is unforgiving. I don’t think he gets the super fight until all of the work is cleared up on the PBC.
One more thing. Spence would be the favorite to beat everyone in the PBC. But that doesn’t mean he will beat each guy if they line up and fight him. Sometimes the totality of the fights cause a hiccup. I’m actually glad someone is stepping up to fight Errol. I hope the other PBC welterweights step up right after Porter if the rumors are true.
Spence is a tremendous fighter, but he’s a human being. He can lose just like any other human being. They have to stop treating him like a horror movie and start treating him like a man. Once the middleweights started treating GGG like human, his fights got tougher. The same thing will happen to Spence if they just step up and fight him and stop the secret avoidance. I actually hope Porter does take the fight next.
Dear Bread,
Some props for Mikey for surviving? Who would jump two weight classes and survive in those matchups?
A superb technician jumped up two weight class against the top 1 and the most dominant and destructive guy and survived 12 rounds.
Now, out of these exactly similar matchups, who Mikeygarcias it? (Losing rounds but surviving, not crazy affected after the bell).
Prime Kovalev (pré-Ward) vs MW Canelo?
Kov early rounds KO.
Gassiev vs Caleb Plant?
Gassiev early rounds KO.
Or, closer in weight difference:
Gassiev/Usyk vs Bivol/Gvozdyk?
Stoppages in every case.
Prime GGG (2015) vs Crawford (2019)?
GGG mid round stoppage.
Prime GGG (2015) vs Spence (2019)?
GGG stoppage.
Jarett Hurd vs the 140 cream: Josh Taylor/Maurice Hooker/Regis Prograis/Ramirez
I think none of them EVER fight again after that fight. No?
Erislandy Lara (prime) vs David Benavidez?
Does Lara even fight after that? Or walk?
Diego G
Bread’s Response: You make an interesting point but let me let you in on a secret. It’s harder to jump weight divisions after 147. The size of the men are different. For example you can have a featherweight Leo Santa Cruz 5’7 who is the same height as a welterweight Keith Thurman 5’7.
You won’t see a 5’7 lightheavyweight champion on the NORM.
You will have good fighters not great fighters move through weight classes from 105 to 147. Look at how many guys recently who have won titles at 105 and 108. Then look at how many guys who have won titles at 147 and 154 recently.
I would never discredit an accomplishment. But you’re mixing apples and oranges.
Let’s look at Kovalev vs Canelo. 1st off Canelo wouldn’t get stopped early. Next thing tell me how many middleweights have won the lightheavyweight title . Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger, Roy Jones, Reggie Johnson, Bernard Hopkins, Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns. I could be missing someone but I can’t think of anyone else in history. No one has even tried it since Bernard Hopkins did 13 years ago!
Gassiev vs Plant is a 32lb weight disparity my man. Mikey was a champion at 140. You guys seem to forget that. He won a title at 140 and decided to move down and fight Robert Easter. Lipinets is no joke we saw that Saturday night. Garcia had to carry 7 extra pounds than he ever carried. You make the Plant comparison to fight a guy 32lbs heavier. #applesandoranges again.
I don’t know if Gassiev/Usyk stop Bivol and the Nail. You’re assuming that, I don’t.
I do agree that prime GGG would be too big for Crawford. Crawford is not a huge welterweight and that’s a lot to deal with.
Spence fought at 152lbs in the amateurs. I wouldn’t favor him over a prime GGG. But I’m not 100% sure he gets stopped. He’s a big guy for 147.
Hurd may be bigger and better than Hooker and Ramirez. That’s not a fair fight. But I don’t assume he can stop Taylor and Prograis. Those dudes can bump and they wouldn’t have to cut 20lbs to fight Hurd. Taylor is just about equal in height to Hurd.
Benavidez is too big for Lara and he would severely hurt him. I’m not disagreeing with that. But only 2 men in history have won the junior middleweight title and won the super middleweight titles. Leonard and Hearns. So what’s your point?
I give Mikey his props he did the best he could. You brought up all of these scenarios and I’m not sure the relevance because you should have brought up cases where a junior welterweight champion was willing to face a top welterweight champion.
Oscar De La Hoya vs Whitaker. Whitaker vs Buddy McGirt. Buddy McGirt vs Simon Brown. Manny Pacquiao vs Miguel Cotto. Floyd Mayweather vs Zab Judah. Zab Judah vs Cory Spinks. Tim Bradley vs Manny Pacquiao.
If you look at the few cases that I have showed objectively you will see that most of those guys did well and didn’t get stopped. I love that Mikey challenged himself. He’s a tremendous fighter. But others have done it and performed better. Am I right?
Consensus scoring is absolutely the fairest and most accurate way to score a fight! Knockdown rounds are simple...if the majority of judges score a round 10 - 8, then its a 10 - 8 round (knockdown or no knockdown).
GGG beats Canelo 115 - 113 using the consensus scoring method...Canelo beats GGG 115 - 113 in the rematch...Marquez beats Pacquaio 113 - 112 in their first fight (first round is scored 10 - 6), Pacquaio takes the rematch 114 - 113, Pacquaio cruises 117 - 111 in the trilogy fight...and there probably is no 4th fight. This is the BEST way to score boxing. The results affect boxing history and fighter legacies. I hope you can push it.
If nothing else...perhaps judges can receive an annual rating based on how often they score a round with the majority - a judge with a 95% rating is with the consensus (presumed to be correct) 95% of the time...a certain "rating" should be required for title fights and their ratings should be publicized so a) we know who the best judges are and b) weaker judges can receive remedial training.
You got the best boxing mailbag out there, I appreciate your work!
VINCENT L. HOWARD, CMSgt, USAF (ret)
Bread’s Response: I love CONSENSUS SCORING and I will post at least one comment about consensus scoring in every mailbag if I receive one. Boxing needs this.
I also agree that judges need an annual rating. It’s ridiculous that the same judges and referees who screw up keep getting the same assignments. That’s why I don’t attribute it ALL to incompetence. We know who does a bad job. They shouldn’t keep getting gigs. Anyone can have a bad night but consistent bad nights are no good. Thank you.
Why don’t we call our African Americans for being racist? That is EXACTLY the way he Spence was acting. When everything you talk about is racial, you are acting racist PERIOD.
While you did say that he shouldn’t expect them to support him because he is black, you went on to defend him for saying it. Grow a set and call it what it was, racism! We both know a white guy would get called out BIG TIME for the same statements.
Bread’s Response: I didn’t call Errol Spence a racist because I don’t think he is. If you do, then that’s your opinion but it’s not mine.
I think Spence was offended and a little hurt that fighters he looked up to somewhat were all picking against him. Spence noticed that Latino fighters were backing Mikey and Mikey was the big underdog. Spence couldn’t understand why so many black fighters were also backing Mikey when the likelihood of Mikey winning was less than the likelihood of Spence winning.
Again I think Spence has a right to feel like that. I don’t think he has a right to MAD at the black fighters who picked against him. But I do think he can feel SLIGHTED. He’s being honest. He wanted the same support that Mikey got.
I also feel like that we can pick who think will win a fight regardless of race or nationality. There is no right or wrong feeling in this.
As for you don’t tell me to grow anything. Who the F$#% are you? And if you’re black which I assume you are why are you so upset that Spence wanted more support? You’re a god dam fool for being offended that Errol Spence felt slighted that his idol picked against him.
As I said before as an adult I personally don’t try to get close to figures that I have looked up to. Because I know they’re human and humans aren’t perfect. Spence is a young guy and through time and experience you learn to compartmentalize. You need also need to compartmentalize and relax.
Bread,
When the fight was first made, all that came to my head was the Mayweather/JMM fight and the Lomachenko/Rigo fight. The skill level of the bigger fighters was superior or at the very least on par and that was going to end in a one sided fight. And that's exactly what we saw. Mikey isn't the best of athletes and doesn't have any special physical gift which was going to always make it difficult against him vs Spence.
Speaking of Spence, this is a peaking fighter at the top of his prowess. I just hope he gets showdowns soon with the likes of Thurman, Porter and Crawford and isn't facing a beast four or five years down the road where people start calling him overrated. Jaron Ennis is COMING and he's going to be a problem for all of these guys. Ennis will be to Spence what Spence is to Thurman and Porter. But I think if given a chance, Spence would take on Ennis sooner rather than later while he is at the top of his game and Ennis is still peaking. Of course this is down the road, but the point is the next set of studs are always coming and you need to make your mark when you have the chance to do so. GGG is a phenomenal great fighter that only got the top fighters later in his career and because he never really separated himself against his best opponents, you have morons calling him overrated.
Paulie said yesterday Spence showed flashes of SRL and Hagler and forget the fact he is bigger, but he's just BETTER than Crawford if they are to fight. Now that was a real interesting statement to me, but it may be true. Crawford is more bouncey and flashy with his movement, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is more skilled or better. This is a true generational match up on par with the likes of Trinidad/DLH or Mayweather/Pacquiao on PAPER. I'm going to not include mention SRL/Hearns as I feel a bit uncomfortable doing so, but these two just very well may prove to two of the all time greats. The latest this fight needs to happen is May of 2020!
Best regards,
Brad
Bread’s Response: There are lots of things to consider when a fighter moves up in weight to take on a tough challenge. One of the things I consider is the ceiling weight of the moving up fighter. For example Oscar De La Hoya wasn’t over his head moving from 130 to 135 because his ceiling was 154.
Looking at Mikey you see his ceiling is 147 tops but 140 is his apex.
After that I look at what weight is the opponent’s start out weight. Spence will be a 160lb fighter one day. Therefore there isa huge physicality difference when one fighter is fighting at their ceiling and the other is fighting at their start out.
The next things I look at is athleticism and height. Mayweather and Pacquiao aren’t super tall, but they’re both special athletes and have supreme skill. Mikey is skillful but he’s not a supreme athlete. When you aren’t you have to be careful. It’s the reason why skillful hardnosed technicians like Hagler and Tszyu didn’t move up.
Next his height. Usually taller fighters who have reach and height advantages at their start out weights can move up easier. Mikey was up against it but he’s a GAMER and he took a shot.
Jaron Ennis is 7 years younger than Spence. And 7 years between great fighters can be significant. It’s why Ali’s victory over George Foreman could be the best win in history. Jaron Ennis is no joke and in a year or two Spence and Crawford both need to be on the look out.
I don’t know if he would win but I think he would be competitive right now as he sits. He’s that good in my opinion. He just doesn’t have the PUSH.
But I think you’re wrong about Spence fighting him now. As good as Ennis is, he’s not rated yet, he’s not a mandatory and he’s well known enough to command a fight with Spence. Spence doesn’t have to fight Ennis at this moment and no one would care because the boxing world doesn’t know Ennis enough. I know Ennis is a tremendous talent but that’s different than being able to command a world title fight.
As far as Spence and Crawford, I don’t know who is better and who would win. I’ve observed a few things that I won’t speak on publicly. I want to see more. Both are top P4P fighters and it would be a super fight. But I’m not so sure Spence is better than Crawford and would beat him. It may be one of those matchups where they have to fight 3 times to decide it. It may be who’s on that night. It may be who wins at the negotiating table with behind the scenes variables. This is a close fight and everything will count. I think it’s 50/50.
Bread,
I'm sure you have heard Boot's comments on Spence that he is basic and he would run through him. You could say well he is young and confident and that's the mindset he should have. I'd agree with that, but seems like a lot of WWs just continue to think Spence is basic with "no special effects" as Floyd would say. What are they missing? What I see is a guy who manages distance as well as damn near anyone in the game, a guy who has a top 5-7 jab in the game, a guy who has one of the best engines in the division, a guy who has good pop and one of the absolute best body punchers in the game. Danny Garcia was also alluding to Spence having flaws and not being as good as people say. Well, if he is that average, how come only Crawford and now Porter are calling for the fight? If Danny wants the fight, do you really think Haymon would prevent it? That's the most frustrating part of this.
Another thing I wanted to touch on was has there been any trainer that has made three world champions from scratch? Like had them from the amateurs to world champion. Mikey Garcia's father Eduardo, trained Mikey/Robert/Fernando to a world title and all three were trained from their first day in the gym by Eduardo. To me, that is just remarkable and seems very rare. Maybe you have other examples of someone doing the same?
Take care,
Brad
Bread’s Response: In reverse I don’t know exactly what you mean when you say from SCRATCH. If you make bread from scratch but you didn’t make the flour will you get credit? In boxing the term from scratch goes on a case by case basis and it depends on if the person saying it wants to credit for discredit you.
If you’re technical and you say from the very 1st day a fighter walks in a gym I just don’t know. It’s really tough to do that. You would have to live in the same proximity of the fighter during his early years. And even so, was the gym you’re in the very first gym they ever walked in.
For example I think I read a comment about Andre Ward saying he had another trainer for a short time then he went to Virgil Hunter shortly after. In my opinion Hunter has Ward from scratch. But if some “expert” wanted to criticize then they could say Ward had a trainer before him which would be ridiculous.
In Eduardo Garcia’s case two of the fighters you mentioned are his sons, so I assume he was their first trainer. If you’re correct about Vargas which I think you are then he is rare in boxing. But I honestly can’t say who had who first in boxing. There are too many nuances to that.
Eddie Futch is usually considered top 2 or 3 trainers ever but I doubt if he had Larry Holmes, Mike McCallum, Ken Norton and Joe Frazier the 1st day they walked into a boxing gym. He would’ve had to live in those exact cities when they were young kids which is impossible.
I think maybe Emanuel Steward could have done it. He lived in Detroit and ran the Kronk gym when Tommy Hearns, Hilmer Kinty and Milton McCrory all were coming up. I would give him credit for the from scratch criteria because he had them young enough in my opinion even if he wasn’t their very first trainer.
Maybe also Cus Dmato. He had Mike Tyson, Floyd Patterson and Jose Toores from very young ages. But I’m not sure if he was their first trainer.
I think Errol Spence gets plenty of credit. It shows because most of the division didn’t want to fight him. I think “they” know what’s up. There is a reason he couldn’t get fights.
I don’t think anyone fighter in particular has ducked Spence, I think it’s a collective thing. It was just an unspoken thing where as no one in the PBC fought him. That’s not an opinion that’s a fact. Spence has only fought Lamont Peterson and recently Mikey Garcia.
Jaron “Boots” Ennis is supposed to feel like that. Ennis would give Spence hell right at this moment, you can mark that down. I don’t care how inexperienced Ennis is. He can fight. He’s no different than Spence was at 15-0 calling out Keith Thurman. He’s a young hungry kid who wants the “work”. I would rather have a kid like that, than a kid who sat back quietly and never wanted to step up and fight.
I didn’t hear Danny Garcia’s comments but let me tell you something. Spence would be the favorite to beat Garcia, Porter and Thruman. But he wouldn’t blow them out. Those are top level fights and at the top level you go the distance or you struggle and lose rounds. Mikey Garcia went the distance and Kell Brook won his fare share of rounds. Errol Spence is the truth but he’s a human being. He can have an off night.
Danny Garcia has an iron chin, he has great timing and he’s bigger than he looks. He’s never dwarfed in any of his fights. Spence is a better athlete but Danny could hang.
Shawn Porter also has an iron chin. He has lots of experience. And he hustles hard to win rounds. Spence is more skilled and a little better all around but if Porter fights a great fight who’s to say he can’t be competitive.
Keith Thurman beat Danny Garcia and Shawn Porter. That’s all you need to say about Thruman. If the welterweights just ran towards the fire instead of running away from it then you would see what I’m talking about.
Boots Ennis is more naturally talented than all 3. He’s also 5’11, with a 74 inch each reach so his natural size is closer to the Felix Trinidad, Oscar De La Hoya like welterweights than the smallish welters of this era.
I want to see the fights. Fights aren’t won on paper or by assumption, they’re won in the ring.
How would you rate Lamont Peterson’s career? I didn’t like seeing him go out like that. I couldn’t help but feel bad for him losing his last fight in his hometown.
Bread’s Response: I rate his career very highly. Lamont Peterson has special kind of heart. He’s what you call “dead game”. I love his in the ring fighting spirit. Don’t feel bad for Lamont Peterson. He went out like the SOLDIER he is. He fought killers consistently throughout his career and when things didn’t go his way. He didn’t complain or hide. He kept fighting.
From the beginning Lamont was a real fighter. He fought a real prospect fight vs the tough Lanardo Tyner. Tyner has clipped some junior middleweights and Peterson fought him at 140 when he was really dangerous.
He fought an undefeated Frenchman in order to earn his title shot vs the great Tim Bradley. He lost to Bradley but he showed his character. He was being outboxed and he went inside and started cracking Bradley’s body and made it competitive.
He was dropped twice again by Victor Ortiz when Ortiz was real and he clawed his way back to earn a draw. He fought a solid contender in Victor Cayo and earned a shot at Amir Khan. The Khan fight was surrounded by controversy but Peterson fought like a warrior again and pulled out a win.
He then fights Lucas Matthysse when Matthysse was considered the Terminator. He gets stopped in 3 rounds. But it doesn’t bother him at all. He comes right back and fights an undefeated Dierry Jean and wins.
Right after that Peterson comes in on the B side yet again and fights Danny Garcia. Many people thought Peterson won but he didn’t get the decision. But Peterson laid a blueprint for Shawn Porter and Keith Thurman who used the same movement that Lamont did to edge Danny.
After that he fights undefeated Gold Medalist Felix Diaz. He wins another tight decision.
Then while everyone else is posturing around, he steps up and fights Errol Spence. He lost but so what. He’s a fighter and fighters fight. His trainer talked him about stopping the fight in between rounds. Lamont told his trainer don’t keep talking about it, because you know how I am. I’m going to keep fighting. Pure HONOR.
I was at his last fight vs Lipinets. And he truly gave it his all. He was getting hurt but he was digging in on Lipinets and getting his pound of flesh. Every ERA needs Lamont Peterson’s. Excellent fighter. Stand up!
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