By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards discuss numerous topics, including Floyd Mayweather's influence on Adrien Broner, Top Rank's TV Deal with ESPN, rumors of Manny Pacquiao and PEDs, and more.
A couple of things:
1. I'm interested to know why you put a guy like Dempsey in the upper crust and Tunney on the second tier when Dempsey lost to Tunney (and Tunney beat the bad ass that is Harry Greb)? Admittedly, I think Dempsey's Sharkey win was a good one even if people complained about the low-blow, he was on his way in and competitive fight. And both were being rough in a very mangy inside fight. Anyway, I'm curious about your ranking wihout those heavies.
2. Also, Marciano is polarizing, people really rip on him for his resume. I've heard folks say he only beat old guys, but part of me thinks that those guys only started looking worn/old when he beat them. They were all legit guys. Why do you have Marciano in that upper tier (and Charles for that matter), and not Wladimir K (Wladimir was on his 9 year tear for as long as Marciano's whole career it seems lol)?
3. Golovkin vs Canelo - the more I think about it, the I think Golovkin wins if he straight up boxes him. He has better feet and jab. Could be an easy night if he boxes instead of fights. He should fight that way since he'll have to beat Canelo TWICE (one way rematch clause). Cotto was a small MW, imagine if he was the size of GGG and could hit with both hands? I don't even know if Canelo can hurt GGG if Jacobs couldn't. If GGG fights Canelo like he did Rosado, he can give up points, but if he fights like he did against Lemieux, he can get real momentum. The more I try and think about it, the only way I think Canelo wins is controversially/closely by getting the benefit of the doubt (if he gets all the close rounds - something he seems to get, like you mentioned in another post weeks ago). I'm a huge fan of both fighters, by the way, even if my remarks indicate otherwise. How can Canelo get traction if GGG doesn't give him any? Or is GGG as hittable as people say (it seems his elbows and gloves take the bite out of more punches than people think, or he has a chin of stone)? Your thoughts on that fight as we approach September 16th? Are you still waffling? Any new considerations?
4. You think Arum move to ESPN is going to take off? He still only has his TR stable, but big promoters are going to duck his guys like Crawford and Lomachenko like the plague, especially if Crawford goes to 147 and Lomachenko goes to higher weights. Could it just become a ton of 'mismstches' on free cable? PBC just isn't looking that good after they depleted their worthwhile matches. I'm worried the same promotional divides will slaughter yet another venture to widen the fan base. Will these promoters clue in and work together on cable or be blinded by dollar signs?
Thanks for your time!
Jay Mac
Bread’s Response: If I go by your logic Trevor Berbick and Leon Spinks should be over Muhammad Ali. I feel as though Dempsey was way past his best days when he lost to Tunney. And I also feel like he got jobbed by the long count. At Dempsey’s peak I feel he was a better heavyweight.
For Marciano we will agree and disagree. I don’t feel as though Moore, Charles and Walcott were as shot as some make them out to be, they just weren’t in their exact prime. Joe Louis was old and completely shot….Walcott was the champion of the world at a time when there was 1 champion so Marciano had to go through him to get the belt. Moore was the reigning lightheavyweight champion and begging for the fight. He reigned for a few more years after his lost to Marciano. Charles was past it but still very capable. He was sort of like Bernard Hopkins of the late 2000s. Marciano is not the best ever at heavyweight because of his perfect record but he is a great fighter and he deserves praise. He had an iron chin, iron will and was indefatigable in a 6 oz horse hair era. He’s one of the better p4p fighters to hover between 185lbs-200lbs.
I have Marciano and Charles over Wlad simply because they were much better fighters than Wlad. Ezzard Charles is a top 10-15 P4P fighter ever and he had about 9 heavyweight title defenses! Wlad had a long good reign but the reign had no A fighters on there. It doesn’t have to be littered with HOF but it literally had no serious A contenders. Like say the real #1 contender that other greats had to go up against. Marciano and Charles most likely could not beat Wlad because of style and size but in their eras they were better and more distinguished. I also hold it against Wlad that he turned pro in 1996 and he couldn’t get his run going until all of the great heavyweights were gone in 2007.
If GGG employs the same concept he did vs David Lemiuex he wins the fight going away. If he doesn’t he most likely loses a decision. Let’s see what happens.
I hope Top Rank’s ESPN deal goes well. It’s better for boxing and I watch great fighters regardless of the Promoter. But they need more clarity on the times the shows will air. Last week there was confusion on time and which ESPN network. When you say a fight is on ESPN at 9pm it should be on at 9pm. Not ESPN2 at 11pm.
Hey Breadman,
I just stumbled upon your blog and I was very impressed.
You use great terminology in describing different boxing styles and you seem to have a load of information about all the current fighters.
I think you were right on point about your assessment of Broner, however, I don't think everyone should hold Mayweather accountable. He has no responsibility to be Broners friend. He did reach out in the beginning but like all of us, we have the right to choose whom we want as friends and who we don't.
Floyd must have been able to see early on that their were flaws in Broners character and maybe this is why he abandoned their relationship.
Next, I would like to address the Mayweather/McGregor fight.
It is not appealing to the true boxing enthusiast, however, it probably does to the rest of the world.
It proves a point that I have been making all along, Money Mayweather is NOT the greatest boxer ever. Maybe, and I say this cautiously, just maybe he lands in the top 10 Boxers of all time.
I would even argue that he is not even the best counter puncher of all time. (i. e. Wilfred Benetiz in my opinion was a better counterpuncher/ defensive boxer than Floyd.)
I will say this and say it with conviction....give Floyd kudos for being the BEST business man ever to put on a pair of gloves. Period!
Thank you for taking the time to read my text. Keep up the great work.
Boxing needs more writers like yourself who understands the sport of boxing.????
Your fan,
Titledanny
Bread’s Response: I agree I don’t hold Floyd Mayweather responsible for Adrien Broner’s problems. That’s not fair to Floyd. A mentor has to have chemistry with whom he is mentoring. Maybe Floyd couldn’t get through to Broner?
You lost me a little bit on why Floyd is not the best fighter ever. I’m not saying he is but I don’t understand your reasoning. Are you claiming because boxing enthusiast are not intrigued by fight that he isn’t the TBE…..
I think boxing enthusiast and casuals are both intrigued. Not because of the matchup but because of the event. Not because the outcome is in question but because they want to see how the two sports mesh in the ring. Let’s see what happens.
What up, Bread.
Thanks for answering my last question about Saunders vs Monroe.
Now I want to ask you as a Philly native. I've noticed you sporting the "Philly Shell" tee during one of J-Rock's fights.
I admire those few who can effectively utilize the Philly shell technique in the ring. It's a pure beauty to watch Mayweather slipping shots and countering. But who in your opinion are the most masterful Philly shell users, exclude Floyd?
Best regards,
Konstantin
Bread’s Response: Georgie Benton and James Toney are my easy choices. Thank you
bread, big fan of yours since very early days at BT, i think i started reading your posts back in 2009 or 2010...
a couple questions for you. pac has had his career tarnished with PED accusations and the generally public link it with his decline in KO power. I am not saying he has been or has not been taking PEDs however i think you can make a case that is linked to his age and here is why:
pac last KO win was vs Cotto. he was about 31. now compare him with the following A side boxers of the past:
mayweather was 34 vs ortiz, and if people dont accept this he was 30 when he knocked out hatton.
oscar was 33 vs mayorga. i would say though his last significant KO was vs vargas when he was 29
sugar ray leonard was 32 vs lalonde
nonito donaire, who is most likley clean due to his testing which is why i have included him here, won his last meaningful KO v darchinyan at age 31.
what are your thoughts on this? i may be bias however i think horn beats him again.
also, no matter who you are you cant get away from mayweather mcgregor fiasco. I think conor might shock a few people with his power. seeing paulie in the media recently upset with the leaked photos of him being on the canvas, i cant help but think it was legit knock down. if it was from a push, as paulie says, i would think paulie would go back in the gym and touch up conor, take his money and go. i know i would be doing that. the last thing i would do is pack my bag and run to the media. for all its worth, i think mayweather will likely take conor the distance.
all the best
GK from australia
Bread’s Response: I haven’t given the Malignaggi/McGregor debacle much thought. Eventually the video will be released and we will see what happened. Personally it really doesn’t matter to me. Paulie is a retired fighter who was brought into spar 12 rounds. That’s asking a lot. McGregor is bigger, younger and he’s training for the fight of his life. So even if he did get the better of Paulie, so what. People who know better are not making a big deal out of this.
I also think Horn will beat Pac in a rematch although Pac probably nipped the 1st one. Horn is a tough style for him and he’s bull strong.
Here is the thing about Pacman’s decline in kos. It could be lack of PED use. Who freaking knows, especially in this era. But it also could be age and style. It really depends on how much you like Pac. Then you can decide which excuse to give him. I honestly don’t know. But if it is his age then I get your point.
Without speculating and just dealing in facts I will touch on some things. Since Pac’s last ko which was over Cotto, his opponent’s records have been incredible. Clottey, Margarito, Mosely, Marquez, Bradley, Marquez, Rios, Algieri, Bradley, Mayweather, Vargas, Bradley and Horn. In his 13 fights since Cotto no one has brought up only one of his opponents had been knocked out before Pac fought them. And that opponent Antonio Margarito has one of the better chins I have ever seen. That’s about 450 fights between his last 13 opponents and only 1 ko loss among them. That should be considered when assessing his lack of kos. We as a boxing community need to do better and do more research before we state our opinions as facts. Before I insert my subjective preference I research facts that can’t be disputed.
KO power is only relative to you’re hitting. It’s really something to think about. At welterweight I think Pac has lost his extra gear. He had a gear that he could snap into and really drop water on the concrete to crack it. He doesn’t have that gear anymore. When he had Jeff Horn hurt he got tired. The old Pac would have stopped Horn in that 9th round. So maybe it’s lack of PEDs. Maybe he’s old. Maybe it’s both. Who knows?
What I do know is he still seems to hurt all of his opponents. He’s always knocking them down, staggering them and busting them up. He’s just not finishing them anymore. I never repeat Pac has lost his power. I always say he has lost his ability to score stoppages. There is a difference.
One more thing we must take note of. Pac’s ko streak stopped 3 years before he took his 1st VADA test. He started going the distance in the Joshua Clottey fight. In that fight he threw 1200 punches. He didn’t start testing until 3 years later against Brandon Rios. I don’t have a horse in the race. He very well could have been on PEDs. But it is a misguided statement to say the kos stopped when the testing started. In actuality the kos stopped in 2010 long before the testing ever started.
I hope one day the truth comes out. A cheater is a cheater in my opinion. No one is above honor and integrity. When the B samples are opened one day something tells me lots of fighters from this era will have * next to their names….
I recently saw once again the fight between Jorge "Locomotora" Castro vs John David Jackson... What a finish! On the top of your head, what are the best turnarounds that you have seen in world title fights?
Bread’s Response: Ah let’s see. Mike Weaver vs John Tate and Julian Jackson vs Herol Graham.
Loved your pound for pound list. Let me ask do you have an all time list. And also do you have an all decade list of the 80s which was my favorite decade of boxing.
Bread’s Response: Thanks man I got some heat for putting Adonis Stevenson in my list but I think it was fair. Stevenson has been lineal champion for 4 years. He has almost 10 title defenses and his left hand could be the best weapon in boxing. He also avenged his only loss by ko. Stevenson will not be easy for anyone fighting him.
My all time list is tough because there a couple of fighters that I don’t have extensive footage on but their accomplishments are so high they have to be on there. For arguments sake I will say that Sam Langford, Harry Greb and Joe Gans all deserve to be on the list but I haven’t given them the complete eyeball test. This list will be just of fighters that I have seen extensively. Again I’m basing it on accomplishments, competition faced and missed, the eye ball test and who I think would win if everyone were the same weight with reach and height relative.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson- There is actual footage of him at welterweight at about 24 and 25 years old. 5’11, crushing power, iron chin, blazing speed, character, experience, amateur pedigree. No one is beating him on his best night. In a time when 99% of the fighters had a handful of losses Robinson got up to 131-1-2. All of the draws and one loss were avenged with kos. His record is as real as a record can get. He stands up to every criterion and he can’t be lower than #3 on the most stringent historians list. He turned pro at 134lbs standing 5’11 on the same day weigh in. There is no doubt in my mind if he were fighting today he would be a titlist from 130-160 legitimately. If he were fighting today he would be a full 2 inches taller than every welterweight champion currently which is his peak weight. For me he’s #1. The next man on my list confirmed it.
2. Muhammad Ali- I may get some flack for rating Ali so high. Most historians have him around 7-9. But the mid 60’s version of Ali is as good as it gets. He has everything except body punching and he never needed it on his best nights. He wasn’t considered a puncher but yet he stopped some of the greatest punchers ever. Foster, Moore, Patterson, Foreman, Frazier, Liston and Williams. Not only is he one of the top 5 most athletically gifted fighters ever, he’s top 5 in, in the ring character. Ali is a monster on the inside. He’s literally willing to fight to the death. He’s the one guy in history to literally has NO misses as to who he should have fought. There was no businessman decisions with Ali. When ranking in the ring greatness he gets extra credit from me for not ducking anyone. I still can’t believe he was as shot as he was, challenging an in his prime Larry Holmes!
3. Henry Armstrong- Would anyone really want to fight Armstrong? You can’t hurt him. You can’t outwork him. You can’t run from him. You can’t tie him up. Think of Aaron Pryor, Shawn Porter and Joe Frazier mixed together. Think about this. Shawn Porter has a hard time getting fights in this era. Armstrong is faster, a harder puncher and more athletic than Porter. He made his bones at welterweight but he was able to make featherweight. To top it off he always came forward no matter how big the opponent was. Armstrong was a honey badger in boxing gloves.
4. Roberto Duran- If Duran doesn’t quit in the No Mas fight he’s higher. His evolution is the best in the history of the sport. He went from a pressure swarmer to a cute in the box technician. Could another lightweight in history extend a prime Hagler or beat a 6’1 Iran Barkley?
5. Benny Leonard- I’ve seen him. Boy was he good. Foot feints. Slipping sliding. #1 guy in history until Armstrong came around.
6. Ezzard Charles- The most underrated fighter in history. His run from 1943-51 could be the best in history. Technically brilliant. Could throw every punch in the book. Wasn’t as fast and athletic as Robinson and Pep but every bit as efficient. He was also matched insanely tough early on during his runs at middleweight and lightheavyweight.
7. Sugar Ray Leonard- The best fighter since 1980. Does anyone have 4 heads higher than Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Against any style you could bet on the Sugar Man to come through. Besides Joe Louis and maybe Sugar Robinson he’s the greatest finisher ever. If he doesn’t get injured in 1982, he has a legit shot at top 3 ever.
8. Willie Pep- Defensive genius. Best feet in the history of boxing. Started out 134-1-1. Best stick and move artist I have ever seen. His rematch victory over Sandy Saddler is one of the top 10 big fight performances in the history of boxing. He has to win that fight and he did.
9. Joe Louis- History’s best puncher. Extremely resilient and the most consistent fighter in history. Also had an underrated IQ. It shows in his rematch record. It also shows after he was knocked down. He got up and fought like an SOB. The perfect text book puncher. His punching form is still the best ever and his prime was almost 80 years ago. You can’t evolve much higher than Louis’s punch technique. If I ever wanted a guy hit I would pick Louis to hit him.
10. Roy Jones- I know his end was horrible. But so were lots of others. Jones’s peak may be the highest in the history of the sport. I’m going to just leave it at that. From 93-03 no one had the heart to bet against Roy Jones. Everyone is loyal to their money. You were going to lose your money if you bet against him. Out of this world reflexes, speed, punching power, stamina and timing. I’ve never seen anything like the combination he hit Reggie Johnson with that knocked Johnson down. He was so good he made all time great technical fighters look mortal in James Toney and Bernard Hopkins. Neither guy was able to win more than 3 rounds against a prime RJ. If he stops boxing after the John Ruiz fight he’s next to Robinson.
Serious consideration: Tony Canzoneri, Eder Jofre, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore, Marvin Hagler, Sandy Saddler, Floyd Mayweather Jr and Manny Pacquiao.
The 1980s.
1. Ray Leonard
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Tommy Hearns
5. Mike Tyson
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Michael Spinks
8. Larry Holmes
9. Aaron Pryor
10. Evander Holyfield
Serious consideration: Azumah Nelson and Mike McCallum.
Bread you were right all along. I know you are on the boxing side of this May/Mac battle but you keep saying that it’s no big deal if McGregor got the better of Paulie. Now the video comes out. I know it was edited but please tell me you saw it. I think it was a knockdown. But the knockdown was the not the big shot. McGregor hit Paulie with a big left hand a visibly stunned him. Paulie looked tired and beat up from what little was showed. Tell me your thoughts?
Bread’s Response: I can’t believe you guys have been asking me to score press conferences and sparring matches. Seriously this has got to stop. But I guess I have to respond because this is like the 20th comment I got on it tonight.
First off anything that is edited down to 2% of the actual length of the interaction cannot be taken as total fact. If the sparring was 12 rounds and a 15 second clip was released it’s not even fair to comment.
But if you really want to know what I saw I will tell you. I can’t tell what round it was in but judging by their reaction time and mood I can tell it was late in the sparring. Both guys looked fatigued. I saw McGregor throwing some touch, push type of punches then I saw him throw a really good left hand that looked like it buzzed Paulie slightly. Paulie lost balance then McGregor slapped him a couple of times as he went to the ropes. Then the video switched on the edit and the controversial knockdown came about. I saw McGregor land a half punch/push shot and Paulie fell off balance. It’s hard to tell in my opinion if it was a legit knockdown because I don’t know what happened before that. For example if Paulie was wobbled or not which led to him being off balance. I also observed Joe Cortez. He appeared to be gesturing it was a slip. From my perspective it was NOT a clean knockdown. But it was it was a real fight it would have been a borderline judgment call because McGregor seems clever at disguising pushes as punches.
But here is the thing. It’s really no big deal. Things happen in the gym. And I’m not taking up for Paulie. I’m just being fair. Rarely is a sparring partner asked to do 12 rounds straight. That’s why the paying fighter usually has multiple guys in camp to keep him sharp. For Paulie to do 12 rounds basically off of the street against a bigger guy like that is a little chippy if you ask me but hey it’s not my business.
What chance on a scale of 1 to 10 or percentages would you give McGregor to win? Call me naïve but I’m buying into the hype. I think he may be too big for Floyd.
Bread’s Response: Floyd’s strength is deceptive. He has enduring strength. He also does not try to overwhelm you with strength. He uses his strength to not allow himself to be overwhelmed. There is a difference. So he doesn’t have to be the strongest man in the ring. He’s strong enough to not be taken advantage of.
I give McGregor about a 10% chance to win. I think his warm up rhythm is being laughed at. But the one thing I know about unorthodox athletes is if they believe in what they are doing it can work for them. Look how Reggie Miller shoots a basketball. Or how Tyson Fury and Carl Froch box.
Fury and Froch seem clumsy but it’s really effective. I think McGregor has serious physical strength. He knows how to push-punch and manipulate a fighter. Sort of like Fury and Froch. I think his punch technique is sort of poor but he can throw a serious straight left hand in the middle of the push stuff. At one time I thought he was going to try to bum rush Floyd. But I think he’s going to box Floyd now. I think he will try to clown him and get the crowd involved. I expect lots of posturing. I expect him to posture in martial arts stances just to give Floyd the threat of doing something other than punching him. Floyd will have to defend against this. There may be a short adjustment period. But at some point Floyd will lock in like he always does and he will hit McGregor and McGregor won’t be able to hit him. At that point the fight will be over. We will just have to see if Floyd is willing to go for a knockout. My pick is Floyd by 8th round tko.
What do you think of Freddie Roach saying Manny is too old to fight Terence Crawford at this point? Is it a duck or is he just trying to get sympathy?
Bread’s Response: I think he’s telling the truth. Crawford boxes too good for Manny right now. And I don’t think Manny gives full effort in his training anymore. I think he’s a small 147 so he trains enough to get sharp and make weight but he doesn’t go all in. Crawford is a tough fight him at this moment. All of the top 6 or 7 welterweights are at this point.
How valuable are strength and conditioning coaches these days. I saw a Facebook debate where a boxing scribe pretty much said that Henry Armstrong and Ray Robinson didn’t need one. Do you feel they are valuable or overrated? I’ve noticed that Floyd Mayweather doesn’t use one. Who do you think are some of the best conditioning coaches in boxing if any?
Bread’s Response: I think it depends on the head trainer. It also depends on the fighter. Some fighters know their bodies so well they don’t need a S&C coach. Some head trainers do so much conditioning work they don’t need extra coaches because it will burn the fighter out. I will say about 75% of the S&C coaches are stealing money. They get to steal money because boxers are not educated as a whole. So when someone tells them something they don’t understand they tend to put the ideas in that person’s hands. That is the reason why just about every top fighter has a S&C coach. However there are a select few that do boxing functional conditioning that really help. In the past trainers didn’t have so many labels so in actuality there may have been conditioning coaches but they just didn’t have the labels.
I think the better S&C coaches that I have seen are Tony Brady, Ed Jackson, Tony Garnett, Remi Korchemy and Gavin McMIllan. There may be others but those are guys who’s work I have studied and learned from.
I love your list bro. I’m going to make this short. I need to settle a debate. Since 2000 who would you say have had the 10 best chins?
Bread’s Response: This is tough because 2000 covers another era. But I will try.
1. Glen Johnson
2. James Toney
3. Ruslan Provodnikov
4. Genady Golovkin
5. David Tua
6. Carl Froch
7. Antonio Margarito
8. Joshua Clottey
9. Brandon Rios
10. Danny Garcia
I know I left some tungsten chins out but those guys popped in my head right away.
Send Questions & Comments to dabreadman25@hotmail.com
