The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such Sergio Martinez vs. Antonio Margarito, Canelo Alvarez vs. David Benavidez, Canelo's fighting style, unified light heavyweight champion Artur Beterbiev, Jermell Charlo, Showtime leaving boxing, and more.
Hi Bread,
I've seen a lot of questions recently about fights that happen too late. It got me thinking are there any fights that you think happened earlier than they should have? Off the top of my head I can think of Sergio Martinez being fed to Antinio Margarito when both were young. It was on an undercard of one of the Barrera v Morales cards. Sergio was late to boxing and I think if they fought a few years later on it main events, both men get paid more and i'd give Sergio a great chance to win. The version of him that fought Paul Williams, Kelly Pavlik etc was a different animal. I also remember reading that Sugar Ray Leonards camp were looking to match him with Tommy Hearns a lot earlier in his career until Angelo Dundee stepped in, he said that fight would happen later on when titles were on the line and they didn't need that smoke at the time (great call for both fighters). How different does history look if that fight happens when both are still prospects?
Thanks, Steve.
Bread’s Response: Hindsight is always 20/20…..Sergio Martinez was undefeated at 16-0 when he fought Antonio Margarito. Margarito had 3 losses. It was a crossroads type of fight but definitely not a “feeding”. No one knew that Martinez would turn out to be a lineal MW champion 10 years later. No one knew what Margarito would turn out to be, because he lost 3 of his first 10 fights. Martinez obviously got better. But so did Margarito. The difference is Martinez excelled at the higher weights. But at welterweight Margarito was a nightmare. I think he would’ve always been a tough style for Martinez. Martinez was an athletic fighter and he had a nice bag of moves. But he didn’t have great defense, he could be carried fast and he more specifically he didn’t defend his body well.
I don’t look at Martinez and say he ascended to heights far superior to Margarito’s. I don’t know who would’ve won if they fought later, I’m just saying that Martinez didn’t ascend to the point where I would assume he would beat Margarito because he improved. Not only did Margarito beat him. But they both performed about even with common opponents of Kermit Cintron, Miguel Cotto and Paul Williams. No assessment or measurable is EXACT in sports. But I just don’t see a great degree of separation at anytime in their careers except Martinez was able to go higher in weight because of his athleticism. But if they fight at welterweight….it’s a tough fight for Martinez at every point of their careers especially Margarito’s prime from say 2003-08 which was also after their fight.
I think the Leonard vs Hearns early talks, was just that prideful talk because it was obvious what they were. No one in their right mind, puts kids that talented in the ring with each other that early. So I don’t think it’s a lie, but I think as time went on it got blown out of proportion. Hearns sparred Leonard in 1978 to help him get ready for his fight vs Floyd Mayweather Sr. Leonard also sparred Hearns in Detroit when they were amateurs when Emanuel Steward wanted to sign him. Everyone knew they were the most talented welterweights to hit the scene since a prime Sugar Ray Robinson 40 years earlier. They both turned pro in 1977 and they fought in 1981 when Leonard was 25 and Hearns was 22 about to turn 23. The fight happened at the perfect time. It’s not even worth pondering what would’ve happened if they fought in 1978 or 1979. What I will say is it would’ve been all time DUMB matchmaking and both of them had smart teams around them.
2023 should be remembered as the year where everyone who said boxers “duck” other boxers ate crow. Terence Crawford “ducked” Errol Spence for years according to the know-it-alls. That is, until Crawford left his promoter and beat Spence up. Crawford destroyed that narrative so badly that it won’t even be mentioned in boxing history. Canelo Alvarez “ducks” everyone according to similar know-it-alls. They won’t mention that Canelo has now beaten every current champion between 154 and 168 besides Tim Tszyu, Jermall Charlo and Janibek Alimkhanuly. For context, Alvarez offered Jermall Charlo a fight that Charlo declined and Tim Tszyu became a world champion two weeks ago. Remember when Vasiliy Lomachenko took the WBC franchise belt to “duck” Devin Haney according to those know-it-alls? They fought this year and it’s Haney who isn’t interested in a rematch after a close decision. We also shouldn’t forget that Tyson Fury “ducked” Oleksandr Usyk. Fury isn’t interested in boxing and wanted to beat up an MMA fighter according to those same know-it-alls. Yet somehow, Fury signed a contract to fight Usyk. I guess he stopped being scared somehow. I could go on and on and on. So here’s my question: do we need to retire the term “duck” from boxing? It seems like it’s well past time.
Bread’s Response: No we don’t need to retire the “duck” term. We just need to use it correctly and objectively.
Breadman,
Hope all is well with you and family. I have some questions that maybe you could respond to.
1. I agree with you in that Canelo has earned the right based on his resume to pick opponents and not have people question him. However if Benavidez knocks out or wins easily vs Andrade and looks great in doing so how much pressure will be on Canelo to fight Benavidez in May. A lot of people will demand it. What I think people do not understand I think Canelo really wants Benavidez to tell you the truth. What do you feel will happen if Benavidez happens to win and looks great in doing so vs Andrade.
2. George Foreman dominated Joe Frazier in their first fight. The second fight was when Joe was way past his prime and the Manila fight took a lot out of him so I don't put too much in that fight. However what still upsets me about the first fight was that to me Joe's only chance was to get inside and throw his left to the body and head. But he was never really given a chance because every time he was about to get inside George simply illegally shoved him. The ref did nothing/his corner also did not do much and joe could not beat George at distance. In your opinion if George could not use those tactics could Joe have given him a much better fight?
3. If fighters were to use head gear when they fight do you think there would be more action in the fights because a fighter would be willing to mix it up more because they might not get hurt as badly/or cut/or be hurt to the temple when they are hit? Or do you think it would not make a difference? Is headgear used to prevent cuts more than to prevent getting clocked in sparring?
4. In a recent fight that I felt was prematurely stopped(sorry I can not remember the fight) the referee basically said that because of the fighters age(even though he was not showing it during the fight) he had a shorter leash with the ref when it came to stopping the fight. In your opinion is this fair to the fighter?5. Your opinion on the over hype of the face of boxing? IMO there are a lot of faces in boxing and if say Davis were to retire boxing will be fine. To me Inoue Crawford and Alvarez(fury has been dq) are the faces of boxing not the person who draws the best ppv. Benitez vs Crawford in their primes. who wins - Ali Stevenson in their primes who wins. Thanks for your time. Without kissing your butt I hope they are paying properly you for the service you provide to your audience with your question and answer sessions on sat morning.
Sincerely, Rich Mathews
Bread’s Response: Thank you. I hope “they” are reading this. I do get paid well and I appreciate and am grateful in being able to earn a living doing something I love but I wouldn’t be opposed to a pay raise. The cost of living has gone up.
I think Canelo will eventually fight Benavidez but he won’t be forced into it. He’s going to do it when he thinks the time is right. Canelo is a bulldog and he’s very mean. I’m sure he hears the talk of him being scared of Benavidez. But I suspect we see the fight in 2024 or early 2025.
There are things that are blatantly illegal like a clear blow under the cup. Like say the one Gerry Cooney hit Larry Holmes with. Or a behind the head shot like the ones Nigel Benn was hitting Gerald McClellan with. Then there is clinching, or pushing or borderline tactics like the one George Foreman used to “STEER” Frazier. If I’m in Frazier’s corner, I complain and ask for a clear definition of the rules. But as fan who was just observing it, I didn’t view it as breaking the rules. I viewed it as a brilliant tactic to control the pressure fighter.
I think fighters would take more chances if they had head gear on but if professional boxing adopted head gear I wouldn’t watch it anymore. It’s just that simple. We wouldn’t even bond with the fighters the way we do if we couldn’t see their faces and emotions.
I think you’re talking Ismael Barroso who fought Rolly. Um…I think that was a bad stoppage but I do understand taking a fighter’s past performances and age into consideration. Also you have to take the climate of the fight into consideration. If you’re talking about that fight, Barroso was doing well. If the older fighter is performing well then he deserves a chance to compete until there is a conclusive ending. Remember the doctors passed him in order to fight. So the referee can go overboard as far what his duty is, he's a referee not a doctor….It’s a slippery slope for sure..I agree.
I would never argue on who’s the face of boxing because the face of boxing is the biggest star who is fighting that weekend. What I mean is when Canelo is fighting, he’s the face. When Tank is fighting, he’s the face. It’s not like they’re fighting on the same day at the same time and we have to choose. The media push and platforms will be designated to whoever is currently about to fight. Tank, Canelo and Crawford are all the faces on their nights. It’s a pointless argument and it’s worse than hypothetical match ups or P4P list, which I personally don't mind.
Hi Breadman,
Does Canelo recent fighting style remind you of Rocky Marciano? They are both short, stocky, stalking fighters that rely primarily on the left hook and the right hand. They both try to throw every shot with power and their shots are very wide but somehow still effective. They don't throw many jabs. Canelo does use the high guard while I don't remember Marciano ever using it. Also their footwork, Marciano used to step with his back foot first and then the lead foot when going forward and Canelo seems to have adopted this technique I believe after the first GGG fight. When Canelo fought Mayweather and Lara he was moving his feet "correctly", meaning lead foot first followed by the back foot. I think Canelo's fighting style has evolved quite a bit where back in the day he was slicker and many people thought he resembled a little bit James Toney. I think at 168 he is more like Marciano.
Going in a different direction here, I admire both Ismael Salas and Derick James but they both have had a string of bad losses so I am wondering how this affects them, their fighters and the fighters they are facing? First, Salas's fighter Joyce was totally outclassed and seemed clueless in his two fights against Zhang. Then Ugas has the worst outing in his career, yes even worse than in the Spence fight, against Barrios. I think coaches go through self-doub too, I mean they are only human. Then their other fighters see that and maybe they lose a little bit confidence in them while fighters that go against them gain confidence. Same thing happened with Derrick James and his two fighters Errol and Charlo. They had their worst performances and then no wonder Frank Martin pulled out against Shakur, I am sure there are other reasons but had Errol and Charlo won, maybe it's a different story. I am not sure, I might be completely wrong on this, half-right or maybe I am on the money, either way I want to hear your take on this.
Best Regards, Eugene from Toronto
Bread’s Response: No. Canelo and Marciano are both tanks but they don’t fight alike in my opinion. The more history a fighter has to put into his game, the more his game will evolve in terms of style he can copy and master. Canelo in my opinion has adopted some traits from GGG, Floyd Mayweather and Marco Antonio Barrera. He doesn’t fight like Marciano although they get the same results.
Marciano fought out of crouch and it’s accentuated on the right side. Marciano basically did everything from over there on his right said. Jab, right hand and hooks. Canelo lines up totally different and he counter punches more. Both are great but totally different in my opinion. The main similarities are their heights and builds but beyond that their set up is different.
I think Derrick James and Ismael Salas are fine. Salas is used to coming in on the B side. He takes tough fights and his fighters perform. Derrick has usually been the trainer coming in on the top of the billing and with him taking a couple of fights were his fighters were the underdogs, it will make him better. Derrick will also be fine.
The public is just not used to him losing but every top trainer goes through this. I didn’t lose an amateur fight or pro fight as a head trainer from 2010-2016. It was well over 50 fights as the lead trainer without 1 loss with 5 different fighters. After I finally lost guess what happened? Nothing. I didn’t die. I didn’t burn at the stake. I didn’t melt. I was upset but I moved on and got better. I’m sure those guys will too.
You do however make a good point about fighters. Fighters are fragile people. They may be tough but they’re also fragile and impressionable. I can see entourages and family telling them to leave their coaches. I can see them start to question things that Derrick and Salas do. I had an undefeated amateur standout get upset with me because I told him to use his left hand while sparring an inferior fighter. He was a big puncher similar to Wilder in terms of being right hand dominant. So I told him to use his left hand in sparring that particular day. This wasn’t my first time telling him that. But it was the first time I told him that after Jrock lost to Charlo. He got upset and that night he told me he was going in another direction. I knew what it was and I just told him good blessings.
Since then he’s tried to come back but I wasn’t for it. I can’t speak for Derrick or Salas but if any of their fighters get funny acting with them because Joyce, Errol, Jermell and Ugas lost then they don’t need that fighter in their stable anyway. It’s not as deep as it looks. The best go through tough spots. And again. If you take on elite fighters in their primes that aren’t hand picked, you’re going to lose. Nacho Beristain, Freddie Roach, Emanuel Steward and Eddie Futch have all lost Super Bowl level fights by ko. It’s not that big of a deal. Just keep trucking away, keep applying your trade and you will get back on track.
So Breadman, I came across a list on Facebook (I think it's been around a couple years but only now making the rounds or I'm only just now seeing it). It's a DAZN list of "Top Ten Boxers from the Last 30 Years" and it's as follows: 1. Manny Pacquiao 2. Floyd Mayweather Jr 3. Roy Jones Jr 4. Bernard Hopkins5. Pernell Whitaker 6. Oscar De La Hoya 7. Felix Trinidad 8. Lennox Lewis 9. Evander Holyfield 10. Canelo Alvarez
Even if I'm late to the party on this list, I'm curious for your thoughts on it. How does it hold up to you? Are there some you'd move around? Any you think are too high or too low? If you could only work off this list, how would you arrange it? And who would you replace... if anybody?
Greg K.
Bread’s Response: That’s a solid list. So 30 years is starting in 1993. But if it was out a few years ago, maybe 1991 ish. My order may be slightly different but those are probably the 10 fighters I would have on my list. Some would argue that Floyd is #1 or at least over Manny. I tend to agree on more days I disagree. I know Manny is naturally smaller, had a better resume at the lower weights and their fight happened in 2015 when it would’ve been best in 2010. But Floyd beat him head to head, was never stopped, and beat the fighter convincingly who beat Manny in Marquez....So if there were 10 list I suspect more experts would have Floyd slightly over Manny.
Personally Roy Jones is the best fighter I’ve seen since Ray Leonard. But some say Floyd. Others say Whitaker. Others say Manny and his 8 titles. It’s a complex argument. But I think if everyone was the same size and in their primes Roy would beat more people than anyone else. But there is a good argument that Floyd and Manny did more and Whitaker fought harder fights. Very close and subjective.
Fans of Andre Ward, Ricardo Lopez, Chocolatito, Joe Calzaghe, Marco Antonio Barrera and Juan Marquez will all be upset they didn’t make the list. I can see all of them making the list. But the issue is who do you take out. Canelo is at 10 hmmmm….All list are subjective but this isn’t a horrible list and I've seen some ridiculous ranking type of list. I agree with the 90% of the list but my order may be slightly different. Whoever did it, did a good job.
In an era where fighters don't really fight that often I'm curious about Artur Beterbiev. He turned pro ten years ago at 28 years old and has only fought 19 fights professionally. The guy has been feared for so long and is a very good fighter with a 100% KO rate so why does he rarely fight? Is it hard for his handlers to get him fights or could he be often injured? At 38 years old father time has to be knocking. I'd love to see him fight Bivol for supremacy at 175 but it doesn't seem like that fight even gets talked about. Can you recall any fighter in recent times that was a champion yet fought so little?
Chris from Chicago
Bread’s Response: I think Beterbiev is just an outstanding fighter. Very clever and he mixes his boxing in with his brutal power. I study him and he’s very militant with his conditioning which as a coach it’s a major plus. He seems to make his coaches job easy. As for his activity. I think most of the long reigning champions in this era, are inactive. Charlo Twins fight on the average about once a year even while active. Gary Russell Jr. also. It’s just the status quo of era. The better fighters rarely fight more than 2x in a year, and the usual activity is from 9 months to 18 months per fight. It’s not just Beterbiev. Beterbiev is from the 2012 Olympics. He has 19 fights. Usyk and Loma only have about 21 fights. So it’s more similar than you may realize.
Hey Bread, What do you think of the betting lines in boxing? I find them pretty reliable, all things considered. Boxing is a centuries old science with generations of knowledge running through families and I find elite level boxers are pretty good at not making tons of mistakes. I bet on the - or favorite fighters at a particular ratio (I won’t divulge that here) and I’ve won way more than I’ve lost. Occasionally I will see something I like or don’t like and take a chance on the underdog but I have to see something intuitively that changes my mind on the odds. I thought Andy Ruiz could get Joshua and he did. There was still money to be made in the rematch but Andy didn’t do the things that a champion should and I lost a few bucks on that. I still think he had the ability to beat him the second time around. There is money to be made on hyped up fighters and circus shows. Anybody with a brain and a pocket full of money could have made a bunch of money on Conor vs. Floyd. I avoid these but it’s an idea. Also, a heavyweight punch can change everything and I’ve found the heavyweights the least reliable to bet on.
I’ve found MMA to be way less reliable to bet on. The sport is in its infancy and still evolving. It’s nothing to see a strike that’s basically never been performed or not much and fighters can easily be taken by surprise and knocked out completely out of the blue more often. I also think that if people were less greedy they could make make money slowly and over time. The slow food movement says that it takes lots of time to make food from scratch but the result you get is amazing food. Similarly if you take small wins over a period of several years the result could become something great. I guess if everyone did that the lines would change but I have made tenfold on the small amount of money I’ve invested. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out tenfold of 100 is the same odds as tenfold of 10,000. I have no gambling addiction gene in me and couldn’t stomach losing big money when I have kids to feed but I’m sure if I had a million dollars I could do well with my formula because it really is a formula. I’m reluctant to even say that here and let the cat out of the bag so to speak so feel free to reply in person if you see fit.
Thanks, Chad
Bread’s Response: I think the betting lines in boxing are pretty accurate. I don’t have exact data but I think about 80% of the time the favorite wins. I win at least bet on every single big card. I also lose but I win more than I lose by a good margin. I would say about 70% of the time I hit on boxing. In team sports it’s a little less....I take the over often in high level fights because it’s hard to get a stoppage. I often take the favorite as long as the lines aren’t outrageous. But I will admit this year the lines have been off somewhat. For example, When I saw the line with Ugas vs Barrios I called a prominent person I know in boxing and told him about the line. He went to the casino to verify it and agreed with me. I told him I was surprised that the line was that OFF. Ugas is almost 40. He had his face broken vs Spence. And he was off a year and a half. No way he should’ve been the favorite in that fight. So nothing will be perfect as far as predictions. But the boxing odds are solid.
Now let me say this. There is a saying that the casinos want even money to come in on both sides in a contest. I never bought that theory. Here is why. What business has a goal of breaking even? If the casino took 1M on Fighter A and 1M on Fighter B. Then they would break even. If the casinos broke even on every bet then how would they stay in business and make a profit? How do they pay their employees etc etc. I don’t buy that BS. I don’t buy that theory.
I think lines are put out to tempt bettors for sure. But I don’t think the Casinos want to break even. They want to win. And if they win the betting public has to lose. It’s simple math. They want to bring in more than they give out. So you will see them put up tempting underdog lines to get people to take a shot on underdogs. Usually, the underdog loses in boxing. But every so often they win. We just had Mario Barrios and Erickson Lubin both hit on the same card as underdogs. That’s rare but it does happen.
In team sports it’s the opposite. From my estimation the favorite does not cover 80% of the time. They may win but they don’t cover it’s a difference. So you have to know what sport your betting. I sound like a know a thing or two about betting. Lol…Maybe..
Hey bread man, big fan from the uk
Respect your opinion as much as anyones in boxing so just wondering how you think jermell charlo would do against his hero and one of my favourite all time fighters terrible terry Norris at 154lbs in his prime? I for one think Norris is somewhat underrated coz of his losses and his DQ’s and I agree with what I saw you say last week about he’s mean streak what a bad boy that man was but wen he was on he was on !!
Also whenever I need a pick me up and want to watch a PURE boxing fight I always go back to sumbu kalambay vs the body snatcher now that was pure art , why do you think not many people mention kalambay? I mean I know he lost big to Nunn but he done what no one barring James Toney could do and outboxed a special mike McCallum also a lot more convincing than Toney in my opinion. I think kalambay would be a tough out for anyone at 154lbs.
how do u see mythical match ups between Kalambay vs Hearns, Kalambay vs Norris, Kalambay vs canelo, and Kalambay vs jermell charlo.
Bread’s Response: Jermell reminds me of Terry Norris when he’s on his bounce. But Norris was a better boxer, quicker and more talented. I think Jermell is a little bigger and his chin is better. I think if they fought 3 times. Norris would outbox Jermell 2x and Jermell would clip him once. Norris is a great, great fighter. Man he was something. One of the better fighters of the 90s. And he’s a top 5 JMW ever. I don’t underrate him. I know what he was.
Sambu Kalambay was not a 154lber. He was a 160lber. But man could he fight. He was smooth. He was a true stick and move fighter. And yes he beat Mike McCallum earlier than Toney did. In fact he gave McCallum his 1st loss right after McCallum beat Donald Curry and moved up to 160lbs when McCallum was undefeated. Kalambay was so good, in their rematch that McCallum won it was a SPLIT DECISION and we know what McCallum was. Kalambay lost bad in 1 round to Michael Nunn in a unification and that does hurt him. But Kalambay beat the super talented Herol Graham 2x, Steve Collins who was a great SMW, Iran Barkley and Doug Dewitt.
He took a couple of losses as a contender but man could he fight. It’s a travesty that Sambu Kalambay is NOT on the HOF ballot. A travesty. I won’t name names. But there are fighters who Kalambay would beat head to head and he had a better career than who are on the ballot. I won’t name names but we all see boxing people championing for lesser fighters and guys like Kalambay and Marlon Starling are not even on the ballot. Disgusting!!!
God bless Breadman,
Hope you and the family are doing well.Bread I wanted to ask you if you have seen or heard about this Kid Currnel Moton ?He seems to be getting a lot of fan fare from trainers and fighters a like.I've been hearing great things about this kid, hes with Floyd Mayweather and it reminds me of the same comments tank Davis was getting when he first came up in the fight game .I've seen pictures of him and he looks very strong for a 17 year old, scary to think what he will be when he gets his man strength as he gets older.What can you tell us about this future champ?May the great Lord keep blessing you and the family.
All the best!
Andres Gonzalez, Staten Island, NY
Bread’s Response: I have heard of Curmel Moton. He looks really talented. He actually resembles Tank Davis. If Floyd Mayweather and Leonard Ellerbee stamp him then he must be good. Let’s see how his career plays out. I’m intrigued but obviously we have to see more. He’s very young at this point and development is paramount.
What do you think of Showtime leaving boxing by the end of this year? Do you know why? I was thinking this has been a great year for the sport. Do you think this will be a good thing or bad thing?
Bread’s Response: Boxing will survive like it always has. When I first got into boxing in 2010, HBO was around and a few years later, they made their exit. Boxing survived. When boxing loses one platform, it gains another and the people who run boxing learn from their past mistakes. However, I do feel bad for the people who worked at Showtime in boxing who are losing their jobs. I never like to see that. But Showtime leaving boxing, doesn’t make me feel any way right now because we don't know what direction things will go.
And here is why I’m numb to things like that. After 47 years on this earth I understand that sometimes bad things turn out good. And good things turn out bad. As I’ve progressed in life I’ve gained wisdom in this. Recently I saw an IG post I will share. And for the record I’m not a social media person but this post captivated me for some reason. In a nutshell here it is.
A farmer’s horse ran away. His neighbors, said to him, ”That’s too bad..” He replied, “MAYBE.”
The next day the horse returned with 7 wild horses. The neighbors said to the farmer, “That’s great isn’t it.” He replied, “MAYBE.”
The next day his son attempted to tame one of the wild horses and was thrown off. His son broke his leg. The neighbors said, “Well that’s too bad isn’t it.” He replied, “MAYBE.”
The next day the military came to recruit his son for a war but they couldn’t take him because of his broken leg. The neighbors said to the farmer , “isn’t that great”. He replied, “Maybe”.
The moral of the story is often times things may look bad and they are blessings. And At same time things can look great and they don’t turn out so great. Time tells ALL and we have to be patient. So right now I don’t have an opinion on Showtime leaving the sport that we all love. Let’s see what happens and be patient.
Send Questions to dabreadman25@hotmail.com