Most skilled defensive boxers

[Sugar Adam Ali]

What about Corrales? Hernandez? Marquez?

How is Canelo not top calibur and Judah, Corley, Augustus and such are?

Most of the fighters you named barely touched Mayweather. They didn't land punches clean consistently other than Castillo in the first fight.

Shane? Why because he landed 2 solid punches and barely got touched the rest of the fight?

Look at all the fighters that tagged Whitaker. Roger Mayweather dropped him, Hurtado touched him, McGirt touched him, Riveria did, Nelson did.

What's the difference?

Mayweather is clearly one of the absolute greatest defensive fighters that has lived.

Corrals is a good puncher but anyone with defensive skills and movement would do the same to corrales. Hopkins would have easily done the same, and so would Benitez or any top caliber defenders... Jmm was a total mismatch, bigger than even khan.. I gave jmm zero chance in that fight.. Jmm only gets his shots off when the guy is there to be hit, and Floyd won't be out boxed by a guy that is smaller, older, less powerful, slow footed, no way does Floyd ever lose to a guy like that... Which Hernandez? Genaro was very slow, famoso is a good fighter but nothing special.. Neither one should qualify u as an atg defender ever.. Say what u will about Judah but he had accomplished more and fought better guys than canelo had at the point when they fought Floyd...
I understand guys will get tagged, but it seems Floyd only really shines vs come forward, planted feet type punchers like canelo, corrales

Whitaker had very little offense against Oscar and vice versa. If he opened like Mayweather did he would have taken more punches. If you want to use that fight you can't ignore how much Whitaker got hit in his previous fight against Hurtado.

Cotto landed some jabs and very little else. Somehow Mayweather getting a bloody nose in that fight translates to him taking a lot of punishment. That fight wasn't close.

Mayweather got hit by Cotto about as much as Whitaker got hit by Chavez. I have seen Whitaker in his prime so I know how good he was. Mayweather jr is on his level and I have no problems saying that.

Pernell had not a mark on him vs Chavez... Floyd was busted and bloodied.. I would love to see where Chavez got on his toes and circled and bloodied Parnell with the jab in the middle of the ring, like cotto did Floyd half way thru the fight. And Chavez 93 was a much better caliber than cotto 2012

Rosario was able to tattoo a lot of fighters. And everyone on these lists was tattooed by someone sooner or later.

Yes but hard to be atg defender when at your peak u got bombed on,, maybe if it happened to camacho in the 90s, I would let it slide but prime camacho I think it lowers his ranking abit

[IronDanHamza]

Corrals is a good puncher but anyone with defensive skills and movement would do the same to corrales. Hopkins would have easily done the same, and so would Benitez or any top caliber defenders... Jmm was a total mismatch, bigger than even khan.. I gave jmm zero chance in that fight.. Jmm only gets his shots off when the guy is there to be hit, and Floyd won't be out boxed by a guy that is smaller, older, less powerful, slow footed, no way does Floyd ever lose to a guy like that... Which Hernandez? Genaro was very slow, famoso is a good fighter but nothing special.. Neither one should qualify u as an atg defender ever.. Say what u will about Judah but he had accomplished more and fought better guys than canelo had at the point when they fought Floyd...
I understand guys will get tagged, but it seems Floyd only really shines vs come forward, planted feet type punchers like canelo, corrales

Well you can say that exact same thing for Whitaker.

Most of the guys he shined against were come forward fighters.

You're saying Mayweather's not an ATG defender because he got tagged against fighters.

But Whitaker got tagged, he got tagged against Mayweather, Hurtado, McGirt, Riveria - Hardly ATG calibur opposition there and he got tagged a lot in those fights. Is he not an ATG defender then?

Nelson tagged him, can't you say "When Whitaker fought a great fighter he got tagged" ?

Guys like Mosley, Judah, Hatton, they barely touched Mayweather.

Mosley landed like 2 meaningful punches the whole fight!!! And you're using him as an example as a guy who hit Mayweather a lot.

That tells me how good Mayweather is defensively that he's an example.

Judah barely landed a glove from Rounds 5-12 and in the first 4 he didn't land that many clean punches.

Hatton barely landed any clean punches, Cotto didn't land much other than the jab.

Other than Castillo in the first fight there isn't a single fighter Mayweather has fought who consistently landed clean punches.

That's an ATG defender to me.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Well you can say that exact same thing for Whitaker.

Most of the guys he shined against were come forward fighters.

You're saying Mayweather's not an ATG defender because he got tagged against fighters.

But Whitaker got tagged, he got tagged against Mayweather, Hurtado, McGirt, Riveria - Hardly ATG calibur opposition there and he got tagged a lot in those fights. Is he not an ATG defender then?

Nelson tagged him, can't you say "When Whitaker fought a great fighter he got tagged" ?

Guys like Mosley, Judah, Hatton, they barely touched Mayweather.

Mosley landed like 2 meaningful punches the whole fight!!! And you're using him as an example as a guy who hit Mayweather a lot.

That tells me how good Mayweather is defensively that he's an example.

Judah barely landed a glove from Rounds 5-12 and in the first 4 he didn't land that many clean punches.

Hatton barely landed any clean punches, Cotto didn't land much other than the jab.

Other than Castillo in the first fight there isn't a single fighter Mayweather has fought who consistently landed clean punches.

That's an ATG defender to me.

I don't want it to seem like I don't respect his defense, I've said in my first few posts he deserved to be in the discussion and he is the best of his era, I just don't feel he is top 3 maybe I could have him 5th or so..

Based on pure defense I find some guys better, and I think Floyd's defense success comes from the fact that he is probably one of the best counter punchers ever which makes guys less active, whereas pernel or pep didn't carry the offense threat that Floyd possesses.... Only toney has really has devasting counter punches like Floyd.. And even then toney can be fat and out of shape and still compete vs very large n capable guys like Peter, jirov, Rahman, holy.. I couldn't imagine Floyd fat and out of shape having success vs froch, ggg or even quillen, even groves would be a monumental task

[IronDanHamza]

I don't want it to seem like I don't respect his defense, I've said in my first few posts he deserved to be in the discussion and he is the best of his era, I just don't feel he is top 3 maybe I could have him 5th or so..

Based on pure defense I find some guys better, and I think Floyd's defense success comes from the fact that he is probably one of the best counter punchers ever which makes guys less active, whereas pernel or pep didn't carry the offense threat that Floyd possesses.... Only toney has really has devasting counter punches like Floyd.. And even then toney can be fat and out of shape and still compete vs very large n capable guys like Peter, jirov, Rahman, holy.. I couldn't imagine Floyd fat and out of shape having success vs froch, ggg or even quillen, even groves would be a monumental task

Right but your reasoning doesn't add up.

The same reasoning you're using to discredit Mayweather can be used for Whitaker.

Look how much James Toney got hit in his prime, Tiberi, Griffin, McCallum, Johnson, Nunn all hit hit him a lot

Nunn hit Toney more in that fight than Mayweather's probably been hit in his entire career.

Yet Toney's an ATG defender and Floyd isn't?

The reasoning you've used for Mayweather not being an ATG defender can used for any guy you've mentioned as an ATG defender.

[joseph5620]

Corrals is a good puncher but anyone with defensive skills and movement would do the same to corrales. Hopkins would have easily done the same, and so would Benitez or any top caliber defenders... Jmm was a total mismatch, bigger than even khan.. I gave jmm zero chance in that fight.. Jmm only gets his shots off when the guy is there to be hit, and Floyd won't be out boxed by a guy that is smaller, older, less powerful, slow footed, no way does Floyd ever lose to a guy like that... Which Hernandez? Genaro was very slow, famoso is a good fighter but nothing special.. Neither one should qualify u as an atg defender ever.. Say what u will about Judah but he had accomplished more and fought better guys than canelo had at the point when they fought Floyd...
I understand guys will get tagged, but it seems Floyd only really shines vs come forward, planted feet type punchers like canelo, corrales



Pernell had not a mark on him vs Chavez... Floyd was busted and bloodied.. I would love to see where Chavez got on his toes and circled and bloodied Parnell with the jab in the middle of the ring, like cotto did Floyd half way thru the fight. And Chavez 93 was a much better caliber than cotto 2012


Yes but hard to be atg defender when at your peak u got bombed on,, maybe if it happened to camacho in the 90s, I would let it slide but prime camacho I think it lowers his ranking abit

Hurtado Dropped Whitaker twice. Cotto is a much better fighter than Hurtado and he never even came close to dropping Mayweather. Point being your reasoning doesn't add up when you apply one standard to one and not the other.

Mayweather had a bloody nose. Nothing more, nothing less. Lets not get carried away with how "busted up" he was.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Hurtado Dropped Whitaker twice. Cotto is a much better fighter than Hurtado and he never even came close to dropping Mayweather. Point being your reasoning doesn't add up when you apply one standard to one and not the other.

Mayweather had a bloody nose. Nothing more, nothing less. Lets not get carried away with how "busted up" he was.

I can see your point about hurtado fight, Floyd has had much longer longevity. I just think at each guys peaks pernell was a more pure defense guy who countered but Floyd a much more damaging counter puncher which causes nearly every opponent to stop throwing, giving Floyd greater chance to not get hit....

Simplest way I can say it is that a lot of Floyd's defensive success comes from the threat of his countering ability,, whereas pernell or pep it's primarily all based on pure defense and not so much on counter punches shelling guys up..

Like i said, Floyd a great defender and deserves to be in the conversation, I just think that in the entire history of boxing their have been 4 or maybe 5 guys better

[Sugar Adam Ali]

What about lightweight joe gans,,, from the little I've seen and a lot of what I read, he seems to be a top defender, some say on par with Benny leonard

[creekrat77]

To name a few Willie Pep, Floyd Mayweather, James Toney, Mike Tyson at his prime, first title reign Ali, Bernard Hopkins, Chris Byrd was pretty slippery in the ring, Ezzard Charles. James Toney was my fave though

[Sugar Adam Ali]

@Irondan and Joeseph

After spending a few days thinking about this, i do agree that my initial reasoning was a bit flawed,,, I seemed to point out all of floyd's bad moments but then not the same for pernell and toney...
I fully realized that, so i will totally admit my reasoning was not very solid...

I still do think that floyd, is not the GOAT of defense or barely top 5,, he is in the conversation but not one of my top 3 or 4 guys ever...

Simply put, Floyd, toney, pernell, all are great defenders,, but toney and pernell did things i have never seen before and have yet to see again,, They had the wow factor, while floyd is a great defender, best of his era or tie with hopkins, but floyd, like hopkins never WOWed me with their defense,, great defenders but more textbook than anything with alot of footwork and movement,, great defenders just not mind-blowing like pernell or toney

[joseph5620]

@Irondan and Joeseph

After spending a few days thinking about this, i do agree that my initial reasoning was a bit flawed,,, I seemed to point out all of floyd's bad moments but then not the same for pernell and toney...
I fully realized that, so i will totally admit my reasoning was not very solid...

I still do think that floyd, is not the GOAT of defense or barely top 5,, he is in the conversation but not one of my top 3 or 4 guys ever...

Simply put, Floyd, toney, pernell, all are great defenders,, but toney and pernell did things i have never seen before and have yet to see again,, They had the wow factor, while floyd is a great defender, best of his era or tie with hopkins, but floyd, like hopkins never WOWed me with their defense,, great defenders but more textbook than anything with alot of footwork and movement,, great defenders just not mind-blowing like pernell or toney

I appreciate the discussions and debates we have. Even if we don't agree on certain topics, I appreciate what you bring to this section.