Hagler was Absolutely the WEAKEST of the Big 4.

[Mr.MojoRisin']

Shall we say an ATG then trying to mince my words...Stevenson & Boone are irrelevant to the conversation...we talking oonce in a life time fighters ...like robsinson,Leonard,Duran,Ali,Jones and the like..there legends of the sport and Stevenson couldn't carry there jockstraps ....Leonard had more natural ability than hagler and it's a fact....hagler was a workhorse and petronelli said that he wasn't gifted at boxing...he had to work every day and was so insistent on learning and gradually he improved himself....Leonard took to it almost instantly and was winning amatuer titles all the the east coast of America and farther ...that's natural ability and you just don't like it....you talk a good game with never even stepping into a ring but you know nothing about boxing.....your a Brockton kiddie and that's why you don't like people saying anything negative about him.....anybody can fight not every body can box you silly man...where do you get this from
A trainer no matter how good cannot make you throw 5 punches a second...that's inside you you ****in dummy ....no trainer can give you a killer instinct ..that's inside you....some fighters are just more gifted that others and that's in all walks of life ...levels

Boone and Stevenson are completely relevant to the conversation. Stevenson is at the top of his division. Doesn't matter how he compares with ATG's, that takes talent whether you like it or not.

I have been in a gym as I train at a PAL boi. Get your facts straight.

Leonard was not inactive for 3 years. He had private fights to keep him sharp. That was proven in another thread. Maybe this one.

You keep naming Robinson in natural talent and I don't know why. I have already made it clear that he wasn't a natural. Said so by George Gainford himself. He's the greatest p4p and didn't have natural talent. Respond to that!

Whether Hagler had natural talent or not doesn't matter to me. If anything that just boosts him on his work ethic. He rose to be the most avoided and relentless Middleweight of his era. You obviously haven't watched him evolve throughout his career as a fighter.

So you're telling me that as soon as Leonard walked into the gym on his first day that he could throw 5 punches per second? BUL****!!! What is the point of training anyway if a fighter already possesses their max amount of speed, power, endurance, etc.????

This is fun watching you trip over yourself when you are too arrogant to admit that you are wrong.

[The plunger man]

Boone and Stevenson are completely relevant to the conversation. Stevenson is at the top of his division. Doesn't matter how he compares with ATG's, that takes talent whether you like it or not.

I have been in a gym as I train at a PAL boi. Get your facts straight.

Leonard was not inactive for 3 years. He had private fights to keep him sharp. That was proven in another thread. Maybe this one.

You keep naming Robinson in natural talent and I don't know why. I have already made it clear that he wasn't a natural. Said so by George Gainford himself. He's the greatest p4p and didn't have natural talent. Respond to that!

Whether Hagler had natural talent or not doesn't matter to me. If anything that just boosts him on his work ethic. He rose to be the most avoided and relentless Middleweight of his era. You obviously haven't watched him evolve throughout his career as a fighter.

So you're telling me that as soon as Leonard walked into the gym on his first day that he could throw 5 punches per second? BUL****!!! What is the point of training anyway if a fighter already possesses their max amount of speed, power, endurance, etc.????

This is fun watching you trip over yourself when you are too arrogant to admit that you are wrong.

He had gym fights with no head gear on and over 10 rounds and that's still no substitute to setting in a ring and having live competition and especially agaisnt the best middlweight since Ray Robinson...and it wasn't to keep him sharp it was to get him use to the ring again...sparring is sparring no matter what way yiu look at it...look dago we ain't gonna agree on this....but again your making it sound that that I said leonard was a Genuis as soon as he laced a pair of gloves on....I nevver said that and you know it....I said leonard has more natural abilty and for a beter word god given talent which yiu took out of context.... Reg gutteridge ,Colin hart and Doug fisher all say leonard was the most talented and skilled fighter they have seen in the last 40 years..u can't teach the natural abilty that leonard or even Roy Jones and that's why they only come along once in a lifetime..I don't agree with you and yiu don't agree with me and its yiu who won't let it go lol....just curious how did you score the leonard hagler fight ? I can't clarify with Ray robinson on what kind of talent he had....all I know is he wasn't beaten as a weltwerweight and had an impeccable career and seeing we wasn't around to judge him then none of us can say otherwise..all I know is Ray robinson was 85 and 0 with 69 KOs and you don't get that kind of record without no natural talent lol....and you don't gain a weltweright record like robsinson had if he had no talent that's all I'm gonna say on the matter now

[Mr.MojoRisin']

He had gym fights with no head gear on and over 10 rounds and that's still no substitute to setting in a ring and having live competition and especially agaisnt the best middlweight since Ray Robinson...and it wasn't to keep him sharp it was to get him use to the ring again...sparring is sparring no matter what way yiu look at it...look dago we ain't gonna agree on this....but again your making it sound that that I said leonard was a Genuis as soon as he laced a pair of gloves on....I nevver said that and you know it....I said leonard has more natural abilty and for a beter word god given talent which yiu took out of context.... Reg gutteridge ,Colin hart and Doug fisher all say leonard was the most talented and skilled fighter they have seen in the last 40 years..u can't teach the natural abilty that leonard or even Roy Jones and that's why they only come along once in a lifetime..I don't agree with you and yiu don't agree with me and its yiu who won't let it go lol....just curious how did you score the leonard hagler fight ?

How I interpreted what you said about the 3 types of champs is that 1 is the best. I disagree I think a number 2 type could beat a number 1. I cite Sugar Ray Robinson as my example. He wasn't naturally gifted.

What I think is that there are certain people who will be natural fighters. Graziano is an example. I also think that a fighter gets to a certain level from who he learned from. If a fighter is eager to learn and works hard they can become great. This applies to anything. If you practice a trumpet every day with correct guidance then you are going to get good. Hard work beats talent when talent slacks off. Just look at Marciano. The worst skills of every all time great. But he worked for it and is now remembered as an ATG fighter.

I don't totally disagree that certain fighters have God given talent. I actually agree with that very much. I just don't think that a natural can necessarily beat someone who works harder. If you work hard enough you will get skillful and then all bets are off.

[The plunger man]

How I interpreted what you said about the 3 types of champs is that 1 is the best. I disagree I think a number 2 type could beat a number 1. I cite Sugar Ray Robinson as my example. He wasn't naturally gifted.

What I think is that there are certain people who will be natural fighters. Graziano is an example. I also think that a fighter gets to a certain level from who he learned from. If a fighter is eager to learn and works hard they can become great. This applies to anything. If you practice a trumpet every day with correct guidance then you are going to get good. Hard work beats talent when talent slacks off. Just look at Marciano. The worst skills of every all time great. But he worked for it and is now remembered as an ATG fighter.

I don't totally disagree that certain fighters have God given talent. I actually agree with that very much. I just don't think that a natural can necessarily beat someone who works harder. If you work hard enough you will get skillful and then all bets are off.

See I never said it that way and its all Been blown out of nothing.....and I certainly know a fighter that has worked his ass off in the gym for a a fight to a boxer that is maybe more skilled but didn't train or take his craft seriously will win there fight of course...how many times have we seen it....buster Douglas over tyson.....maidana over boner, Kirkland Lang over duran , RACHMAN over lewis ..even schmelling over louis....that's not my point....anyway it's a forum and its good to get a Sunday heated discussion lol...let me tell you one thing that explains my point.....there was a famous Spanish cyclist who won the Tour de France 3 times and was considered unbeatable...They done some medical tests on him and found that his heart beat is almost half the amount of beats that a normal persons heart will beat. And average persons heart beat at 28 is between 55 and 65 ....Miguel indurains heart beat was 35 beats per minute which enabled him to save oxygen in his blood for the long steep climbs in the French Alps ...to me that's a gift because there's really no other sport he could have participated in where he had that kind of advantage and why did he take up that sport....anyway it's a draw lol

[Anthony342]

Who thinks hagler was better ? Leonard's rated higher on almost every single p4p list so not sure where you got that from.....also Duran,hearns,Geraldo all favoured Leonard to beat him.....now under your criteria if hagler lost to Monroe, drew with searles and antuofermo ...plus being taking the distance to a close win over Roberto Duran how do you get to that conclusion and gathered with the fact Leonard beat hagler not the other way round and that's also with the of him having one fight in 5 years and coming of alcoholic and drug abuse and with an old injury ......there's no proof what so ever that hagler could have beaten Leonard going by what are all the facts....1984 he retired because he still had concerns with his eyes and was disappointed with his fight with Kevin Howard ....now no one and I mean no one picked Leonard to beat hagler and was deemed to be a lamb for the slaughter and it's only because of Leonard's belief in himself he knew he could beat him....I am sure u are one of those that said Leonard would get destroyed....funny now that hagler was past his prime and yet I bet you would have put your house on hagler stopping Leonard ...am I right ?

Not better all time, but head to head, prime for prime, Hagler is believed to be better. The Duran fight wasn't as close as the judges scored it and the previous opponents he lost to a drew with he beat easily in rematches. I had no pick for this fight, as it was the first boxing match I ever watched live on TV.

And you're right about Leonard's belief in himself. But that belief didn't happen until after Hagler's fight with Mugabi, which he attended with Michael J. Fox. After the fight he said that now he could beat him. Hagler also visited Leonard's restaurant and talked of retirement. These are things documented and admitted to by Leonard himself, so I don't know why you're arguing about them. There was a post fight interview where Hagler called out Leonard and was deflected. In the case of the fight with Hagler and rematches with Duran, Leonard used some devious planning and gamesmanship.

Leonard's only concern in 1984 was his bruised ego after getting knocked down by Kevin Howard, which makes no sense, since he came back to TKO him. Leonard then stayed retired until he knew Hagler was past it and ready to retire and only then did he take a fight with Hagler. Then afterwards, when he won (and he did IMO), Hagler called for a rematch, which caused Leonard to retire again and not come back until well after Hagler had retired. Not denying Leonard's skills and resume of other great wins as an ATG, just saying this was some underhanded crap he pulled there in these cases is all. I would rank Leonard higher too, if I did rankings. I just prefer a Hagler type of fighter, someone who wants to fight the best at their best and doesn't play games like that.

[The plunger man]

Not better all time, but head to head, prime for prime, Hagler is believed to be better. The Duran fight wasn't as close as the judges scored it and the previous opponents he lost to a drew with he beat easily in rematches. I had no pick for this fight, as it was the first boxing match I ever watched live on TV.

And you're right about Leonard's belief in himself. But that belief didn't happen until after Hagler's fight with Mugabi, which he attended with Michael J. Fox. After the fight he said that now he could beat him. Hagler also visited Leonard's restaurant and talked of retirement. These are things documented and admitted to by Leonard himself, so I don't know why you're arguing about them. There was a post fight interview where Hagler called out Leonard and was deflected. In the case of the fight with Hagler and rematches with Duran, Leonard used some devious planning and gamesmanship.

Leonard's only concern in 1984 was his bruised ego after getting knocked down by Kevin Howard, which makes no sense, since he came back to TKO him. Leonard then stayed retired until he knew Hagler was past it and ready to retire and only then did he take a fight with Hagler. Then afterwards, when he won (and he did IMO), Hagler called for a rematch, which caused Leonard to retire again and not come back until well after Hagler had retired. Not denying Leonard's skills and resume of other great wins as an ATG, just saying this was some underhanded crap he pulled there in these cases is all. I would rank Leonard higher too, if I did rankings. I just prefer a Hagler type of fighter, someone who wants to fight the best at their best and doesn't play games like that.

Who says hagler was better that leonard...nobody says it and p4p leonard achieved much more than hagler and ranks higher on the p4p list....if you wanna say prime for prime and your putting both guys as the same weight then let's say michael spinks vs hagler prime for prime on who would have won as you seem to be classing leonard as the same weight class even though they were 2 weight classes apart.
Just to clarify the ratings on who was better this is the rings rating of the greatest boxers of the last 80 years....leonard is number 9 rated and hagler is 17 and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Ray Leonard voted boxer of the decade in the 1980 and your way off to even say hagler was better than leonard because weight for weight and achievement vs achievement leonard leaves hagler standing..leonard was considered by almost every expert to be the best p4p fighter 1982 and just before he got injured

http://www.fightsaga.com/boxing-vide...ats-Highlights

Now you are talking utter **** by saying leonard re retired so he could wait till hagler was out of his prime , what planet are you on saying that a fighter will retire wait it out and then make a comeback having waited for the other guy to get old..GTFOH ..have you ever had a detached retina and been told that you could go blind and its irreversible ? The media the boxing world and everybody was against leonards comeback....you also don't know that Leonard was due to fight Howard in February he then postponed it to have surgery to strengthen his other retina and its so essy for you to talk as if it's just a small cut he had or something ... This was always the fight of the century and leonard knew if he never went for that fight it probably would never have happened so that's why ...your talking out your a$$ son....u honestly think leonard was the same fighter who boxed hagler as he was when he beat thomas hearns....he was 70% compared to the 1982 version you only have to watch the tapes

[The plunger man]

Not better all time, but head to head, prime for prime, Hagler is believed to be better. The Duran fight wasn't as close as the judges scored it and the previous opponents he lost to a drew with he beat easily in rematches. I had no pick for this fight, as it was the first boxing match I ever watched live on TV.

And you're right about Leonard's belief in himself. But that belief didn't happen until after Hagler's fight with Mugabi, which he attended with Michael J. Fox. After the fight he said that now he could beat him. Hagler also visited Leonard's restaurant and talked of retirement. These are things documented and admitted to by Leonard himself, so I don't know why you're arguing about them. There was a post fight interview where Hagler called out Leonard and was deflected. In the case of the fight with Hagler and rematches with Duran, Leonard used some devious planning and gamesmanship.

Leonard's only concern in 1984 was his bruised ego after getting knocked down by Kevin Howard, which makes no sense, since he came back to TKO him. Leonard then stayed retired until he knew Hagler was past it and ready to retire and only then did he take a fight with Hagler. Then afterwards, when he won (and he did IMO), Hagler called for a rematch, which caused Leonard to retire again and not come back until well after Hagler had retired. Not denying Leonard's skills and resume of other great wins as an ATG, just saying this was some underhanded crap he pulled there in these cases is all. I would rank Leonard higher too, if I did rankings. I just prefer a Hagler type of fighter, someone who wants to fight the best at their best and doesn't play games like that.

Head to head prime for prime who wins michael spinks or marvin hagler ? 2 weight classes and exactly the same comparison as leoanrd vs hagler ....who wins ? And btw it's also a falacy that leoanrd never offered hagler a rematch ....he offered him one in June of 1988 by this time hagler had already moved to Italy but it was only a year after the first fight and hagler said no.....that's in the four kings and leonards autobiography ....leonard would have beaten hagler in 1982 he was just a better boxer and hagler would not have got near him...to quick in 1982

[young_robbed]

Wow. This is a terrible thread.

I can see an argument for Hagler being the least great out of the 4, but it's worth noting that Hagler arguably beat all 3 of them (he beat Leonard imo) so it doesn't really seem right saying that Hagler isn't better than them.

Of course in a p4p sense, since Hagler didn't move up and he was naturally bigger I guess you can say the others are greater in a p4p greatness sense. its a slippery slope though and I think a lot of people underestimate how hard it is to be a dominant champ at one weight class compared to jumping around weight classes.

This idea that Hagler is somehow overrated though is laughable. No way. Great great ATG fighter, and the best middleweight ever for me.

[KidDinamita]

Leonard even fought at Light Heavyweight and won the WBC belt.

All of the 4 are legends IMO.

All of the other 3 fought way up Middleweight, with Hearns even fighting at Cruiserweight.

IMO Hagler even beat Sugar Ray with a very close decision.

[GOD-FR33]

No way...

Leonard even fought at Light Heavyweight and won the WBC belt.

All of the 4 are legends IMO.

All of the other 3 fought way up Middleweight, with Hearns even fighting at Cruiserweight.

IMO Hagler even beat Sugar Ray with a very close decision.

Good post except for "Hagler won". No he didn't. SRL out smarted him. He out pointed him. He landed more and controlled the ring with his "effective" movement. Hagler came on late BUT it was too late. Just remember this, Hagler and most of the boxing world, thought he was going to KILL Ray. Ray came out of retirement after 5 years without a TUNEUP! Hagler is the greatest middleweight of all-times in my opinion but he didn't beat SRL. He did all kinds of uncharacteristic things in the fight and after. During the fight, he fought conventional for a little too long and it cost him. After the fight, he was dancing before the decision. Guess what? Marvin don't dance. Period. It reminded me of Floyd's words and behavior before the decision was read against Manny. In his heart, he knew he didn't win and so did his father.