Why So Much Praise For The "If Only" Fighters: (Toney, Judah, Khan, etc.)

[-PBP-]

It's so infuriating. People convince themselves that these fighters have supreme skill and they only lose for other reasons. Um, no. Toney struggled with the exact same kinds of fighters all the time because he is one dimensional and could never adjust, not because of "dedication." Khan is not supremely skilled and only losing because of his chin, he has huge gaps in his game. Judah's skill has always been ridiculously overrated.

It's so annoying to hear people talk about all the skill these fighters have that for some reason never shows up against their best opponents. People were actually saying Toney can box backwards and move well earlier. Have they actually watched Toney to say **** like that?

James Toney sparred thousands of rounds. Judah was always in tip top shape and shredded for every fight.

They were both dedicated. You don't make it this far in pro boxing with out commitment and dedication. They maximized their potential but just fell short of being ATGs because they just aren't that caliber of fighter.

Which is OK by the way.

[IronDanHamza]

YOu missed out Toney's best win why? The win over Michael Nunn is one of the best quality wins in the past 30 years. Better win than any on Floyd's resume. Better than any on many many great fighters.

Toney's a legend.

Best quality wins in the last 30 years? Michael Nunn is not even a HOF'er.

And he was schooling Toney for most of that fight before the stoppage came.

[soul_survivor]

There are very few fighters who get overrated because "if only" like James Toney. "If only he was dedicated, he would have beat Roy, he would knock out Golovkin in 5 rounds, he would be better than Mayweather, etc. If only he was dedicated, he'd be a top 10 great."

Dedication is not why Roy made Toney look like an amateur every second of 12 rounds.

Ok fair enough, you're talking about the "if only" excuses that occur after fights rather than "if only" based on an entire career. I'd agree then Toney and his team were great at making excuses. Same goes for judah and Khan, although Khan has rarely looked like he is being outboxed before a big punch lands so it's a legit excuse lol Also, the Peterson fight scores were a farce.

I'll add in JMM...it's always "if only the judges were on his side"

[BM dnobagaV]

Overrated how? One of the longest middleweight streaks ever, wins over legitimate atgs, skillful, smart, resilient, possibly a top 3 all time chin, lineal middleweight champ and 2 or 3 time lineal light heavyweight champ often beating guys 10-15 years younger than him.

What more do you want from a fighter?

A win over a prime ATG?

[soul_survivor]

A win over a prime ATG?

You don't think Tito was prime?

[robertzimmerman]

If only James Toney was more disciplined, he would be one of the greatest fighters of all time.

If Only Zab Judah wasn't a mental midget, he would have been an all time great fighter.

If only Amir Khan can avoid the big punch for 12 rounds, he would have won.


These types of sayings happen so much that people actually start to believe the bull****. Why is at that these fighters losses get written off as "mental lapses" rather than flaws in their game? Do people actually watch the fights or do they just repeat what they hear on an Ellie Sechback video?

When you look at James Toney's fights, he excelled against fighters that came to him. His performances against Iran Barkley, Evander Holyfield, John Ruiz, Samuel Peter (yes he was robbed), Vassily Jirov were magical. But when he fought guys that showed a little movement, had an effective jab and made him lead, he wasn't so great. It took him 24 rounds and he still couldn't figure out Montell Griffin and often struggled with below average opposition.

Zab Judah had a combination of power, handspeed and timing that made even the most knowledgeable boxing heads drink the Kool-aid at times. But he lost every big fight he was in. He looked the part at times and was the last undisputed welterweight champion which is a great accomplishment. But he wasn't a very smart fighter and it showed every time he stepped up in class.

And Amir Khan is the funniest of the bunch. People fall in love with his handspeed but ignore how he backs up in straight lines and is as good as useless on the inside. But when he loses, it's always "if only his chin held up". There's not many fighters that would remain standing after a lot of those shots that KO'd Amir Khan.

I'm not questioning the talent of these fighters. They are all world class fighters, became unified champions and had tremendous accomplishments. Respect to all of them.

But can we stop pretending that their losses weren't due to anything other than being flawed fighters? And accept them for what they are.

I understand where you're coming from, but in my opinion, although James did have a few flaws, he could absolutely have become a better fighter with more dedication. There's no doubt about that.

[robertzimmerman]

Does Toney really excell against fighters that come to him?

Dave Tiberi came to him, beat him easily.

Drake Thadzi came to him, beat him easily.

Merqui Sosa came to him, lost a close one.

James Toney excels when he fights sub par fighters who stand infront of him doing nothing. That's the only time I've seen him excell.

We don't care what you think.

You are completely biased when it comes to James Toney.

[robertzimmerman]

But this is where I'm getting at. If he dedicated himself and stayed in shape. How would the Roy Jones or Montell Griffin fights, for example, have played out differently.

Some argue he beat Ice Griffin but the fights were too close to call them robberies. But he had 24 rounds to figure this guy out and wasn't able to do so.

I don't think he'd have beaten Roy even at 100%.

Roy was a freak of nature.

A bad style match up.

The Griffin fights were extremely close though, and I think Toney could have won clear had he have been sharper and in better shape.

Like so many of his fights around that time, he had to battle the scales before the fighter.

[robertzimmerman]

Hopkins is vastly overrated himself. Using illegal tactics that some ****s call veteran tactics. He cherry picked without being called on it. And his resume isn't all that impressive. Flopping in multiple fights to try and get out of a loss too lol. The age factor seems to overshadow everything. The way he acted when asked about testing too... atg better than Floyd doe

I agree with you.

[robertzimmerman]

A lack of discipline means less focus in the gym, less attention to your defecits as a fighter. It absolutely indirectly affects your performance in the ring, and I am one of those who firmly believe Toney, like Oscar, caused his own early downfall and losses due to a lack of discipline, and that with his gift and skillset he could certainly go down as one of the greatest of all time.

Don't confuse a lack of discipline in the ring (dropping hands at dangerous times, lazy footwork, porous defense) with a lack of discipline to your craft.

Great post.