What year was Cotto's prime or GGG's prime?

[juandabomb]

Cotto's prime was plastered away from him.

He was still a very good fighter in stages after that night, but never quite the same.

no proof,cotto couldnt hang. the rematch was manny's gift to cotto.

[Larry the boss]

I think the 1st Margo fight took a lot out of Cotto not just physically,his confidence was never the same again

[SunSpace]

In history's case, we all have to accept that we never truly saw Cotto's prime. He was improving after every fight, and then he was assaulted by loaded wraps. Frankly, we should be relieved that he managed to not only survive that night, but also continue his career in the amazing way it turned out. His recuperative abilities are astonishing. Any number of other fighters could've died or never boxed again after that. Cotto has made the most of what was left, his biggest regret being not joining forces with Freddie Roach earlier in his career.

And, since I know this is where the topic is going, yes, Floyd did duck Cotto back then. It would've been one hell of a fight, and Floyd doesn't take those chances. It's part of the reason why Floyd has had such an incredible career--he knows how to protect himself.

In any case, this match-up is still interesting today. Cotto isn't and has never been "shot." That's just mostly what people who feared his return to the top would say to, in a way, discredit him as a fighter. Even right now, Cotto vs Mayweather is a great, competitive fight.

[Zaroku]

no proof,cotto couldnt hang. the rematch was manny's gift to cotto.

Agreed, if PAC didn't crush Marg's. Face, cotto may not have been able to get the win.

[NearHypnos]

a beautiful and empirical assessment you gave.

however, should boxing fans assume that weigh class challenges, particularly greats that have moved up in weight and show consistency, vs a fighter that stays only in one class? doesn't that change the narrative of a top notch boxer?

one might even argue that heavyweight could be the ultimate and last standing test for a man to use his fists, meaning, he can if he wants, max out a superpower weight - heavyweight? Or, others could say that a 4 weight champ could be better, depending on resume...

I have my doubts about Cotto vs Margarito I, and personally that's because it was Top Rank ala Arum flavour. I think Arum has more conspiracy surrounding ''entertainment'' with the help of HBO than the phrase ''controversial Bradley'' which ironically is also Top Rank.

plaster of paris... I mean...yup.

I honestly don't care much for multiple weight class champs or one weight champs. As "cool" as moving up and winning as these titles is the political aspect of boxing takes away from it in a lot of cases. Not only that, but most multi-weight champs are not fighting in their native weight classes to begin with. They're not even moving up...they are just not killing themselves for an advantage. I think Donaire was a stud for exampld. But I also think he was big as hell. Likewise for Pac. Arum has fed us that Pac has been a midgit but dude is built like an absolute tank with those legs and he's always been pretty muscular up top. It's like Canelo. Not very tall, but he's so compact and strong that we all know when he first was on TV he'd outgrow 147 and 154.

Back on topic... So the fighters are bigger now in most weight classes than they were before but the rules enable it. So in a sense it's a don't hate the player type game. So you have these rules and then you have the guys like Arum. I dont mean to pick on Pac but he's a perfect example. Sure, he won all these titles in all these divisions...but he didn't beat every lineal champ or the best fighter at each weight he won a title in, etc. It's still impressive but if you have the pull, can come CLOSE to the weight (you don't even have to make weight anymore if you have the right guys) you can buy yourself into a title. Pac-Marg for instance. Then you have a Marvin Hagler (might be some bias here as he's one of my top 5 all time favorite fighters) who doesn't have to leave. There's something to be said when a guy fights at his weight, shows the discipline, the boxing lifestyle needed to remain in that weight class for a long period of time, and dominates it. It's such an impressive feat to me to be able to truly be considered THE best at a certain weight class and no matter who comes and goes through it over the years, there remains an immovable mountain of class and character ready for anyone who dares lurk in his domain.

I don't think I can ever truly hate on a fighter who stays at his weight and wants to dominate. The politics of the hurt game a lot of times make it hard to justify people being drained down and things of the sort so while I'm "ok" with Ward (as an example) doing his thing at 68, things like bring a LEAN 175 pounder down 7 pounds is kind of s hitty but I teeter on that fence. I find myself contradicting myself with that subject as one logically would think "the fair/honorable thing to do is to have two trains on a collision course meet in the middle for all the marbles" because one can say both that Ward DIDNT beat the baddest man at 75 as he was not in that shape/form and is himself a big 168er who could have just fought him at 75...but he's STILL beating Chad Dawson. With the current politics and divas though we wouldn't have witnessed the fight anyway so why complain?


Now, all these things seem to go full circle and end up being in relation to the guys like Arum. What I mean is that if it wasn't for the vultures, would this type of "diva"mentality or game of advantages be tolerated by us, the public? The thing is if Arum says it's ok, that this fighter is the next Sugar Ray Leonard...and HBO jumps on board and markets it that way...who's going to dispute it? Other fighters? They'll just say he's ducking. Why? Because how many fighters are going to just say "You know what? F uck you, Arum. You're full of s hit and a liar. Just because you say I'm ducking doesn't mean I am. F uck off. " and in turn banish himself from the premier boxing network and at least make fights impossible to make with his stable. Arum is *kind of* like a necessary evil in that sense. He brings SOME kind of order by being such a big figure in the sport with so much pull. Every now and then a Sergio Martinez comes along and does it the right way. Promoters, wbc, sanctioning bodies be damned and gives us a nice satisfying "f uck you" to Arum and co. And succeed despite all the not-so-hidden agendas.


The heavyweight division will probably go back to being a political game now that Wlad has lost. Wlad didn't just rule the division's fighters with an iron fist but because he did so, we didn't have a flock of vultures all pulling fighters certain way. It was a simple time...Who did we think was a threat? That's cool, Wlad will fight him. No weight drains or "blow ups". No 3-4 champs all barking from behind their promoters..just an under appreciated apex predator of a champ. The heavyweights are the biggest baddest men in the pugilistic workd and I'm sure there was a lot of behind the scenes bull s hit but I'm going to miss how simple Wlad had it. There was the apex predator...then there was the rest. Whatever political scheming went on, all it took was a call from Wlad and you were fighting Wlad now. Every single fighter knew their place. Wlad said you fought in june? You fight in June. Nobody disagreed with the pecking order. He was the biggest baddest man in the planet and like you say, it's in a sense the ultimate class. Not that everyone should aspire to be HW champ and move up though lol.



Rambling over.


War Cotto. War GGG. When in doubt and spewing the haterade, we should all just ask ourselves "Why can't I like both fighters? F uck what Arum said!"

[Lester Tutor]

I honestly don't care much for multiple weight class champs or one weight champs. As "cool" as moving up and winning as these titles is the political aspect of boxing takes away from it in a lot of cases. Not only that, but most multi-weight champs are not fighting in their native weight classes to begin with. They're not even moving up...they are just not killing themselves for an advantage. I think Donaire was a stud for exampld. But I also think he was big as hell. Likewise for Pac. Arum has fed us that Pac has been a midgit but dude is built like an absolute tank with those legs and he's always been pretty muscular up top. It's like Canelo. Not very tall, but he's so compact and strong that we all know when he first was on TV he'd outgrow 147 and 154.

Back on topic... So the fighters are bigger now in most weight classes than they were before but the rules enable it. So in a sense it's a don't hate the player type game. So you have these rules and then you have the guys like Arum. I dont mean to pick on Pac but he's a perfect example. Sure, he won all these titles in all these divisions...but he didn't beat every lineal champ or the best fighter at each weight he won a title in, etc. It's still impressive but if you have the pull, can come CLOSE to the weight (you don't even have to make weight anymore if you have the right guys) you can buy yourself into a title. Pac-Marg for instance. Then you have a Marvin Hagler (might be some bias here as he's one of my top 5 all time favorite fighters) who doesn't have to leave. There's something to be said when a guy fights at his weight, shows the discipline, the boxing lifestyle needed to remain in that weight class for a long period of time, and dominates it. It's such an impressive feat to me to be able to truly be considered THE best at a certain weight class and no matter who comes and goes through it over the years, there remains an immovable mountain of class and character ready for anyone who dares lurk in his domain.

I don't think I can ever truly hate on a fighter who stays at his weight and wants to dominate. The politics of the hurt game a lot of times make it hard to justify people being drained down and things of the sort so while I'm "ok" with Ward (as an example) doing his thing at 68, things like bring a LEAN 175 pounder down 7 pounds is kind of s hitty but I teeter on that fence. I find myself contradicting myself with that subject as one logically would think "the fair/honorable thing to do is to have two trains on a collision course meet in the middle for all the marbles" because one can say both that Ward DIDNT beat the baddest man at 75 as he was not in that shape/form and is himself a big 168er who could have just fought him at 75...but he's STILL beating Chad Dawson. With the current politics and divas though we wouldn't have witnessed the fight anyway so why complain?


Now, all these things seem to go full circle and end up being in relation to the guys like Arum. What I mean is that if it wasn't for the vultures, would this type of "diva"mentality or game of advantages be tolerated by us, the public? The thing is if Arum says it's ok, that this fighter is the next Sugar Ray Leonard...and HBO jumps on board and markets it that way...who's going to dispute it? Other fighters? They'll just say he's ducking. Why? Because how many fighters are going to just say "You know what? F uck you, Arum. You're full of s hit and a liar. Just because you say I'm ducking doesn't mean I am. F uck off. " and in turn banish himself from the premier boxing network and at least make fights impossible to make with his stable. Arum is *kind of* like a necessary evil in that sense. He brings SOME kind of order by being such a big figure in the sport with so much pull. Every now and then a Sergio Martinez comes along and does it the right way. Promoters, wbc, sanctioning bodies be damned and gives us a nice satisfying "f uck you" to Arum and co. And succeed despite all the not-so-hidden agendas.


The heavyweight division will probably go back to being a political game now that Wlad has lost. Wlad didn't just rule the division's fighters with an iron fist but because he did so, we didn't have a flock of vultures all pulling fighters certain way. It was a simple time...Who did we think was a threat? That's cool, Wlad will fight him. No weight drains or "blow ups". No 3-4 champs all barking from behind their promoters..just an under appreciated apex predator of a champ. The heavyweights are the biggest baddest men in the pugilistic workd and I'm sure there was a lot of behind the scenes bull s hit but I'm going to miss how simple Wlad had it. There was the apex predator...then there was the rest. Whatever political scheming went on, all it took was a call from Wlad and you were fighting Wlad now. Every single fighter knew their place. Wlad said you fought in june? You fight in June. Nobody disagreed with the pecking order. He was the biggest baddest man in the planet and like you say, it's in a sense the ultimate class. Not that everyone should aspire to be HW champ and move up though lol.



Rambling over.


War Cotto. War GGG. When in doubt and spewing the haterade, we should all just ask ourselves "Why can't I like both fighters? F uck what Arum said!"

Another nice assessment. However, I think weight classes make a huge difference since it represents physical stamina, endurance, and strength. The mind game and IQ come second or first...

Most of us that have been athletic in some part of life, whether lifting weights, general workouts, lived more than 30 years... can acknowledge that being a professional athlete is extremely difficult, ESPECIALLY a sport in which there are weight classes.

There's the narrative that a puncher's power comes from birth, true..perhaps, but then there's the chin endurance, how strong that character can maintain strength going up or down, and sustaining power and agility going older. BOXING imo is the hardest sport. I've been in fights, I've gotten my nose rocked a couple times, I'Ve been hit behind the head in fun sparring... This is just one sport that's ugly and messy.

For any general bloke that assumes moving up in weight fighting other elites in those weights is just easy is insane. It takes special elite fighters to do this. A catchweight is one thing, which is why imo, I don't sweat Pac's victories on some hand given title bouts just because Arum suckered the other ''B'' side opponent to fall for the cash.

I might go off in a tangent, but it's a luxury for a general boxing fan to assume that a boxer can just move up and act the same given the pounds added. Any one of use regular heads knows what 5-10 pounds do to us physically. For example, I live in a 6 floor apart without an elevator. When I am fit vs non fit, and yes we're talking 10 pounds for example, it makes a hell of difference in everything. That's just walking a flight of stairs... So imagine going the distance, dodging or withstanding heavy blows, and conserving power when needed if going the championship rounds. I used to play soccer from 10 yrs old to 22 yrs of age. I think my heart for the most part has had some good strength conditioning because of it, but those years were a while back. I am now in my mid 30s. Things change. I know most guys would agree 100% percent. Boxing is a damn hard sport.

This is why imo Floyd and guys like Bhop have proven that styles will affect with age. Floyd could've retired long ago going the Naseem route that his hands just gave up. Instead, Floyd went old school to just Olympic style scoring and being conservative. His ring IQ was there because he was running in the ring as a toddler. Most people called his later bouts ''running'' HOWEVER given all that has been said, being a champ for 19 years along with resume is without a doubt imo the best of this ERA.

Fack Top Rank boxing the catchweight PED prince.

[BM dnobagaV]

What a crap attempt at discrediting Pacquiao in this thread. It was anything but thinly veiled.

[Willy Wanker]

Margarito beat the prime out of Cotto with his plaster. Cotto never recovered until a few years later and reached his peek around May 2012, which was the best version of Cotto.

Cotto's prime was 2007-2008 and 2010- 2012. He was completely shot in 2009 doe.


TBE#1